Log in or Sign up

Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

Page 27 of 90

Michael Pio Archangels

garabandal said: ↑

Cardinal Müller on Traditionis Custodes: ‘The Shepherd Hits the Sheep Hard With His Crook’

Cardinal Gerhard Müller has argued that Pope Francis failed to adequately make his case in Traditionis Custodes, the decree that imposes sweeping restrictions on the Traditional Latin Mass, saying that “instead of appreciating the smell of the sheep, the shepherd here hits them hard with his crook.”

In a lengthy July 19 commentary on Traditionis Custodes (Guardians of Tradition) which reversed the efforts of Pope St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI to liberalize celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal, the prefect emeritus of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith makes the case that the Pope’s accompanying letter to bishops contains an inadequate vision of Church unity and lacks both expertise and context.

The Pope signed and promulgated Traditionis Custodes issued motu proprio (of his own accord) on July 16, the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, arguing that the efforts of his predecessors to liberalize the Mass have been “exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.”

Taking as his starting point that the Pope wishes to “drastically” restrict the celebration of the old Mass by “total unification” with the Mass of Paul VI, Cardinal Müller writes that Francis’ clear intention is actually to condemn “to extinction in the long run” celebration of the old Mass, also called the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite. But to do so, “a stringent and logically comprehensible theological argumentation” would be appropriate, Cardinal Müller argues, and that references to statements from the Second Vatican Council should be “used precisely and in context.” He criticizes what he sees as the decree’s call for “a sterile uniformity in the external liturgical form” rather than “unity in the confession of revealed faith and the celebration of the mysteries of grace in the seven sacraments.” “The unity of believers with one another is rooted in unity in God through faith, hope, and love and has nothing to do with uniformity in appearance, the lockstep of a military formation, or the groupthink of the big-tech age,” he explains.

And although he supports the Pope for his concern about those who resist “the authority of Vatican II” and for insisting on what the cardinal calls the “unconditional recognition of Vatican II,” he also notes a recent “paganization of the Catholic liturgy” such as the Pachamama controversy in 2019 — developments, he says, which are “rather counterproductive for the restoration and renewal of a dignified and orthodox liturgy reflective of the fulness of the Catholic faith.”

Cardinal Müller, who stresses that Traditionis Custodes is disciplinary and not dogmatic and so can be “modified again by any future pope,” further contrasts the Pope’s forceful treatment of those who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass to the “relatively modest response” to the Church in Germany and its “massive attacks on the unity of the Church” through its Synodal Path. “The image of the misguided fire brigade comes to mind, which — instead of saving the blazing house — instead first saves the small barn next to it,” Cardinal Müller writes. “Without the slightest empathy,” he continues, “one ignores the religious feelings of the (often young) participants in the Masses according to the Missal John XXIII (1962). Instead of appreciating the smell of the sheep, the shepherd here hits them hard with his crook. It also seems simply unjust to abolish celebrations of the ‘old’ rite just because it attracts some problematic people: abusus non tollit usum [misuse of something is no argument against its proper use].”

Cardinal Müller says the Pope rightly emphasizes the “centrality” of the Roman Canon in the new Missal, but the cardinal also stresses the need for adherents of both forms of the liturgy to respect each other's qualities, and argues that “more knowledge of Catholic dogmatics and the history of the liturgy” could counteract conflicts and save bishops from “an authoritarian, loveless, and narrow-minded manner against the supporters of the ‘old’ Mass.” The German theologian, who was CDF prefect from 2012 to 2017, also argues against bishops’ conferences being given “responsibility for unity in cult.”

He hopes the Congregations for Religious and Divine Worship, which will now have authority over individuals and groups attached to the old Roman Missal, will not become “inebriated on power” and wage a “campaign of destruction” against such communities in the “foolish belief that by doing so they are rendering a service to the Church and promoting Vatican II.”

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/cardinal-mueller-on-traditionis-custodes
Click to expand...

I am so glad Cardinal Mueller has made these strong and good points. Saves the face of Germany.

Michael Pio, Jul 21, 2021

#521

Te Deum, DeGaulle, Shae and 4 others like this.
garabandal Powers

I really believe the Pope has shot himself in the foot.

He has exposed his true face.

He is not a pastor of souls but an ideologue.

garabandal, Jul 21, 2021

#522

Te Deum, Adoremus, Clare A and 6 others like this.
garabandal Powers

So much for smelling like the sheep.

So much for accompaniment.

So much for pastoral sensitivity.

None of that in this shockingly vindictive document that was produced because of half truth and spin about traditionalists.

He has exposed himself as a mean and vindictive old man.

Sorry, but that is the way that I see it. How can he abandon some of his flock because he holds and ideological position? He doesn't like altar boys with hands joined in prayer in adoration of God. He doesn't like Rosary spiritual bouquets that honours our Lady. He doesn't like Latin Mass that gives honour and praise to the Triune God.

Yet he has endorsed idolatry and pachamama worship!!

His time is drawing to a close.

I pray often for him because I actually feel sorry for him as he is so lost within his own ideological mind. He is trapped in a 1960s theological mind set of Kumbaya!!

Last edited: Jul 21, 2021

garabandal, Jul 21, 2021

#523

Adoremus, Clare A, DeGaulle and 5 others like this.
miker Powers

From Today’s Morning office... as this world continues to move into darker places... great advice here from Thomas a Kempis

From "The Imitation of Christ"
The kingdom of God is the peace and joy of the Spirit
Turn to the Lord with your whole heart and leave behind this wretched world. Then your soul shall find rest. For the kingdom of God is the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit. If you prepare within your heart a fitting dwelling place, Christ will come to you and console you.
His glory and beauty are within you, and he delights in dwelling there. The Lord frequently visits the heart of man. There he shares with man pleasant conversations; welcome consolation, abundant peace and a wonderful intimacy.
So come, faithful soul. Prepare your heart for your spouse to dwell within you. For he says: If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and we shall come to him and make our dwelling within him.
Make room for Christ. When you possess Christ you are a rich man, for he is sufficient for you. He himself, shall provide for you and faithfully administer all your cares. You will not have to place your hope in men. Put all your trust in God; let him be both your fear and your love. He will respond on your behalf and will do whatever is in your best interest.
You have here no lasting city. For wherever you find yourself, you will always be a pilgrim from another city. Until you are united intimately with Christ, you will never find your true rest.
Let your thoughts be with the Most High and direct your prayers continually to Christ. If you do not know how to contemplate the glory of heaven, take comfort in the passion of Christ, and dwell willingly in his sacred wounds. Endure with Christ, suffer for him, if you wish to reign with him.
Once you have entered completely into the depths of Jesus, and have a taste of his powerful love, then you will not care about your own convenience or inconvenience. Rather you will rejoice all the more in insults and injuries, for the love of Jesus makes a man scorn his own needs.

miker, Jul 21, 2021

#524

Mary's child, josephite, Te Deum and 7 others like this.
HeavenlyHosts Powers

padraig said: ↑

Apparently they are expecting Francis to die soon and Cardinals and Bishops consider his Pontificate to have been a terrible, terrible failure and the rats have begun to abandon his fast sinking ship.
Click to expand...

To God’s ears

HeavenlyHosts, Jul 21, 2021

#525

Byron, Ananchal, AED and 1 other person like this.
HeavenlyHosts Powers

miker said: ↑

From Today’s Morning office... as this world continues to move into darker places... great advice here from Thomas a Kempis

From "The Imitation of Christ"
The kingdom of God is the peace and joy of the Spirit
Turn to the Lord with your whole heart and leave behind this wretched world. Then your soul shall find rest. For the kingdom of God is the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit. If you prepare within your heart a fitting dwelling place, Christ will come to you and console you.
His glory and beauty are within you, and he delights in dwelling there. The Lord frequently visits the heart of man. There he shares with man pleasant conversations; welcome consolation, abundant peace and a wonderful intimacy.
So come, faithful soul. Prepare your heart for your spouse to dwell within you. For he says: If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and we shall come to him and make our dwelling within him.
Make room for Christ. When you possess Christ you are a rich man, for he is sufficient for you. He himself, shall provide for you and faithfully administer all your cares. You will not have to place your hope in men. Put all your trust in God; let him be both your fear and your love. He will respond on your behalf and will do whatever is in your best interest.
You have here no lasting city. For wherever you find yourself, you will always be a pilgrim from another city. Until you are united intimately with Christ, you will never find your true rest.
Let your thoughts be with the Most High and direct your prayers continually to Christ. If you do not know how to contemplate the glory of heaven, take comfort in the passion of Christ, and dwell willingly in his sacred wounds. Endure with Christ, suffer for him, if you wish to reign with him.
Once you have entered completely into the depths of Jesus, and have a taste of his powerful love, then you will not care about your own convenience or inconvenience. Rather you will rejoice all the more in insults and injuries, for the love of Jesus makes a man scorn his own needs.
Click to expand...

Thank you, miker. Our kingdom is not of this world. And Our King is Victorious.

HeavenlyHosts, Jul 21, 2021

#526

Michael Pio, Mary's child, josephite and 6 others like this.
HeavenlyHosts Powers

BrianK said: ↑

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/traditions-custodes-a-cry-from-the-heart

A Cry From the Heart About ‘Traditionis Custodes’ and the Latin Mass
Traditional Catholics are among the sheep of Christ’s flock, and they need a shepherd’s care.
Msgr. Charles PopeJuly 20, 2021

Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco celebrates the ‘Mass of the Americas’ using the extraordinary form of the Mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C., Nov. 16, 2019. (photo: EWTN/YouTube Screen Capture)

Many have already written well of the concerns and heartache elicited by the Pope’s motu proprio, Traditionis Custodes, which sets strict norms limiting the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass. I have celebrated in this “extraordinary form” (as well as the ordinary form) for more than 32 years and written often of it. Hence, I seek to add my voice.

I must say that I am grieved and stunned by this document and the letter to the bishops that accompanied it. I think not so much of my own potential loss but of the many Catholics I have served who love the extraordinary form. For so long and in so many places they have often been treated harshly and have been marginalized for their love for the form of the liturgy that most of the saints knew.

Pope Benedict and Pope St. John Paul II sought to heal the rift by gradually normalizing the celebration of the older form of the Roman Rite in the life of the Church. In effect they said to such Catholics, “You are important to us. You are our sons and daughters. Your love for the tradition is legitimate and understandable and we have obligations to care for your spiritual needs and well-being.”

Here in Washington, D.C., the extraordinary form has existed peacefully alongside the ordinary form in approximately 10 of our parishes. We have no parishes exclusively devoted to the celebration of the Latin Mass.

While people on both “sides” may have preferences, even strong preferences, there has been mutual respect and a willingness to make room for one another. Whatever tensions do exist, they are minor and not so different than the tensions that emerge from the diverse mosaic of ethnic communities.

In this diocese Mass is celebrated in dozens of languages. Some of our Eastern Rite liturgies are also celebrated in our Roman Rite parish churches. We also have one parish that hosts the Anglican liturgical tradition and nearly a dozen who host the Neocatechumenal Way liturgy with all its adaptations. Somehow, we all make room for one another and deal with the logistical challenges well enough.

Apparently, Pope Francis does not see this rich and peaceful diversitywhen it comes to the Traditional Latin Mass. Instead, he writes to the world’s bishops in his cover letter that he sees something very different:

“An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.”

con’t
Click to expand...

The author of this excellent article is a priest in the Archdiocese of Washington DC. He was very ill with Covid a year ago but survived. Our Bishop ( I live in the same diocese) is Cardinal Wilton Gregory who is allowing the Masses to remain the same while he studies the document. Then he will decide. Honestly, I don’t like that. Scary. But we will wait for the Lord with courage.

HeavenlyHosts, Jul 21, 2021

#527

Michael Pio, Mary's child, josephite and 5 others like this.
Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

Mario said: ↑

It had been decades since I had experienced a High Latin Mass, Ananchal, and then about four years ago(?) one was celebrated with organ , Gregorian Chant, etc, right at my home parish. For me, I simply knelt there in silence, no missal, absorbing the smell of incense, the ritual action, and the chant. A holy hour of prayer, for sure. Obviously, not every TLM is celebrated with such solemnity, but the beauty has lingered in my memory.

Worship the Lord in holy attire!
Click to expand...

Mario, I have been attending TLM regularly since the lockdown, and to start with was busy bringing the normal prayer petitions to the foot of the Cross at each holy Mass. But lately your description of attending and simply soaking up the reverence, the liturgy, the formality, the beauty and the worship; all for the honour and glory of Almighty God makes it A holy hour (and a half) of prayer for sure.

There is something that one can not see, hear, or touch with the human senses at each holy Mass, celebrated in the more traditional format that can not be denied.

I feel like I have reconnected with something that has been missing from my inner being for ages. Don't know what it is, and pray the Pope does not cancel this newfound hope the TLM brought right in the lockdown over the last eighteen months.

Julia, Jul 21, 2021

#528

Michael Pio, josephite, Te Deum and 10 others like this.
HeavenlyHosts Powers

Julia said: ↑

Mario, I have been attending TLM regularly since the lockdown, and to start with was busy bringing the normal prayer petitions to the foot of the Cross at each holy Mass. But lately your description of attending and simply soaking up the reverence, the liturgy, the formality, the beauty and the worship; all for the honour and glory of Almighty God makes it A holy hour (and a half) of prayer for sure.

There is something that one can not see, hear, or touch with the human senses at each holy Mass, celebrated in the more traditional format that can not be denied.

I feel like I have reconnected with something that has been missing from my inner being for ages. Don't know what it is, and pray the Pope does not cancel this newfound hope the TLM brought right in the lockdown over the last eighteen months.
Click to expand...

Eloquent post, Julia.

HeavenlyHosts, Jul 21, 2021

#529

Michael Pio, josephite, AED and 1 other person like this.
FatimaPilgrim Powers

Byron said: ↑

The Brain
Click to expand...

Yep, I was a total nerd. The morning I had to do breakfast club, I walked in and the usual suspects were saying "what are you doing here?". So the reason I got breakfast club was because in Latin class I was caught shooting spitballs at the chalkboard when Mrs. Tucker's back was turned (most of us were bored silly with Latin). And the reason I was taking Latin was because my dad wanted me to learn it so I could assist at the Traditional Mass held at our parish

FatimaPilgrim, Jul 21, 2021

#530

Michael Pio, Mary's child, Byron and 7 others like this.
Beth B Beth Marie

Don_D said: ↑

It's also a mighty glaring coincidence that two months after the pachamama nightmare churches ALL OVER THE WORLD were CLOSED for months!
Click to expand...

It sure looks to me to be a spiritual event and no coincidence. Add the seer from Akita remarks about sack cloth and ashes right before the Covid pandemic….
The seer from Akita had been silent since the 1970’s and gives us this warning right before the pandemic begins…?
Now we have George Soros and Bill Gates buying the Covid testing company…..
Flooding occurring around the world….
Biblical Signs of the times it seems….

Beth B, Jul 21, 2021

#531

Michael Pio, Mary's child, josephite and 6 others like this.
Beth B Beth Marie

padraig said: ↑

Yes but God tends to use men to accomplish his ends. Witness the incarnation, St Joan of Arc, the counter Reformation, the great saints and so on. We should be alert to this.

I always loved the Maccabbees. Let us trust in God , but keep our muskets dry, as they say.

Click to expand...

Agree….we need to keep our faith and hope alive….yet not be blinded by the truth. The signs are evident.

Beth B, Jul 21, 2021

#532

Michael Pio, Mary's child, josephite and 4 others like this.
HeavenlyHosts Powers

Beth B said: ↑

It sure looks to me to be a spiritual event and no coincidence. Add the seer from Akita remarks about sack cloth and ashes right before the Covid pandemic….
The seer from Akita had been silent since the 1970’s and gives us this warning right before the pandemic begins…?
Now we have George Soros and Bill Gates buying the Covid testing company…..
Flooding occurring around the world….
Biblical Signs of the times it seems….
Click to expand...

Yes, agreed . Biblical proportions.

HeavenlyHosts, Jul 21, 2021

#533

Michael Pio, Mary's child, josephite and 2 others like this.
PurpleFlower Powers

Julia said: ↑

Mario, I have been attending TLM regularly since the lockdown, and to start with was busy bringing the normal prayer petitions to the foot of the Cross at each holy Mass. But lately your description of attending and simply soaking up the reverence, the liturgy, the formality, the beauty and the worship; all for the honour and glory of Almighty God makes it A holy hour (and a half) of prayer for sure.

There is something that one can not see, hear, or touch with the human senses at each holy Mass, celebrated in the more traditional format that can not be denied.

I feel like I have reconnected with something that has been missing from my inner being for ages. Don't know what it is, and pray the Pope does not cancel this newfound hope the TLM brought right in the lockdown over the last eighteen months.
Click to expand...

This soaking up of the beauty and holiness...the silent reverent worship... It is just what I need as I wrangle 2 crazy toddlers throughout Mass. I rest in the trust that Father is praying and offering Christ for me, and I let my presence be a prayer, whether a baby is clinging to my face or I catch a moment to be still and offer God more specific prayers and intentions. It doesn't seem as easy to stay in that reverent state during the Novus Ordo, with its constant noise and movement.

PurpleFlower, Jul 21, 2021

#534

Michael Pio, josephite, BrianK and 6 others like this.
Beth B Beth Marie

miker said: ↑

From Today’s Morning office... as this world continues to move into darker places... great advice here from Thomas a Kempis

From "The Imitation of Christ"
The kingdom of God is the peace and joy of the Spirit
Turn to the Lord with your whole heart and leave behind this wretched world. Then your soul shall find rest. For the kingdom of God is the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit. If you prepare within your heart a fitting dwelling place, Christ will come to you and console you.
His glory and beauty are within you, and he delights in dwelling there. The Lord frequently visits the heart of man. There he shares with man pleasant conversations; welcome consolation, abundant peace and a wonderful intimacy.
So come, faithful soul. Prepare your heart for your spouse to dwell within you. For he says: If anyone loves me, he will keep my word and we shall come to him and make our dwelling within him.
Make room for Christ. When you possess Christ you are a rich man, for he is sufficient for you. He himself, shall provide for you and faithfully administer all your cares. You will not have to place your hope in men. Put all your trust in God; let him be both your fear and your love. He will respond on your behalf and will do whatever is in your best interest.
You have here no lasting city. For wherever you find yourself, you will always be a pilgrim from another city. Until you are united intimately with Christ, you will never find your true rest.
Let your thoughts be with the Most High and direct your prayers continually to Christ. If you do not know how to contemplate the glory of heaven, take comfort in the passion of Christ, and dwell willingly in his sacred wounds. Endure with Christ, suffer for him, if you wish to reign with him.
Once you have entered completely into the depths of Jesus, and have a taste of his powerful love, then you will not care about your own convenience or inconvenience. Rather you will rejoice all the more in insults and injuries, for the love of Jesus makes a man scorn his own needs.
Click to expand...

“Once you have entered completely into the depths of Jesus, and have a taste of his powerful love, then you will not care about your own convenience or inconvenience. Rather you will rejoice all the more in insults and injuries, for the love of Jesus makes a man scorn his own needs.”

This quote above is very comforting….thank you for posting!

Beth B, Jul 21, 2021

#535

Michael Pio, josephite, HeavenlyHosts and 1 other person like this.
Beth B Beth Marie

HeavenlyHosts said: ↑

The author of this excellent article is a priest in the Archdiocese of Washington DC. He was very ill with Covid a year ago but survived. Our Bishop ( I live in the same diocese) is Cardinal Wilton Gregory who is allowing the Masses to remain the same while he studies the document. Then he will decide. Honestly, I don’t like that. Scary. But we will wait for the Lord with courage.
Click to expand...

I worry that the bishops are not prohibiting the Latin mass all at one time to advert a mass uprising at once. Rather they will incrementally prohibit it one diocese at a time , little by little to avoid a mass revolt.The slow boiling frog ….

Beth B, Jul 21, 2021

#536

Michael Pio, themilitantcatholic, josephite and 6 others like this.
padraig Powers

Beth B said: ↑

I worry that the bishops are not prohibiting the Latin mass all at one time to advert a mass uprising at once. Rather they will incrementally prohibit it one diocese at a time , little by little to avoid a mass revolt.The slow boiling frog ….
Click to expand...

I get the impression (in the USA) at least that the Bishops generally, are supportive of the Old Mass... and why would they not? It is the Mass of the Ages.

Just finished watching this, so sweet.

padraig, Jul 21, 2021

#537

Michael Pio, josephite, Beth B and 4 others like this.
AED Powers

FatimaPilgrim said: ↑

Yep, I was a total nerd. The morning I had to do breakfast club, I walked in and the usual suspects were saying "what are you doing here?". So the reason I got breakfast club was because in Latin class I was caught shooting spitballs at the chalkboard when Mrs. Tucker's back was turned (most of us were bored silly with Latin). And the reason I was taking Latin was because my dad wanted me to learn it so I could assist at the Traditional Mass held at our parish
Click to expand...

I.LOVE.THIS.

AED, Jul 21, 2021

#538

FatimaPilgrim, Michael Pio, Byron and 1 other person like this.
AED Powers

Beth B said: ↑

It sure looks to me to be a spiritual event and no coincidence. Add the seer from Akita remarks about sack cloth and ashes right before the Covid pandemic….
The seer from Akita had been silent since the 1970’s and gives us this warning right before the pandemic begins…?
Now we have George Soros and Bill Gates buying the Covid testing company…..
Flooding occurring around the world….
Biblical Signs of the times it seems….
Click to expand...

AED, Jul 21, 2021

#539

Michael Pio, Mary's child, josephite and 2 others like this.
Beth B Beth Marie

AED said: ↑

Click to expand...

Sadly, this is just the short list of the signs

Beth B, Jul 21, 2021

#540

Michael Pio, josephite, AED and 2 others like this.

(You must log in or sign up to reply here.)

Page 27 of 90

Share This Page