questions & comments on True Devotion to Mary

God knows our fate but it is our free will that determines it. Predestination is a Calvinist concept in which our free will has no effect on our predetermined eternal state. There is a strange opinion, held by at least one prominent priest, that it is not unreasonable to hope that all will be saved (Jesus said that 'it would have been better if Judas had never been born - doesn't sound like eternal happiness). However to reach the 'universal salvation' conclusion we have to ignore what Our Lady said at Fatima where she complained that 'many souls go to hell' because no-one prayed for them and what has been said by many saints and mystics. So our free will is instrumental in the fate of others too (worryingly).

 

I totally agree with you, I was just reflecting on the idea of predestination, which is more described in Jerry's posts and which is supposedly Catholic doctrine however not widely known and seems to have a lot of internal conflicts with other doctrines and the words of Our Lord in Scriptures.

 

thanks everyone, for your responses! I almost didn't start this thread...thinking it was a stupid question

Jerry, your initial response brought back memories of CCD, where I believe I first heard the term. I think I was confused by it and wondered why try to be good. I don't think I heard the term again until the book.

What Padraig posted really clarifies it for me. God knows where we will end up because He knows who will reject the graces He sends that will save us. I believe that God gives absolutely everyone on the earth enough grace to overcome our sin and make it straight to heaven...but we reject some of it and maybe end up in purgatory or we reject all of it and end up in hell. He knows before we are born the outcome because He is all-knowing and not constrained by time. So, it still is totally up to us and our free-will that decides our outcome. God is just aware of the outcome before we are born.

It's also kind of like, I've always believed that I could look up some family member who died in the year 1800 who I have never met. I could say a prayer for their salvation tonight...and God would have known the moment that person died (in 1800) that I would say a prayer for them in the year 2013, and I believe that prayer said tonight would have been taken into account in that person's judgement and place on the day they died. This is possible because God is all-knowing and not constrained by time. I could be wrong, but that is what I feel.

I can get past the why would that person be born question, since that person will still have an impact on other's lives, will have children that are part of God's overall plan, etc. But I wonder what it is like to exist with no anticipation of an outcome to an event. For instance, Bob here on earth is at a great crossroad in his life...which way will he turn...those around Bob await his next move with anticipation and excitement on the outcome...but God already knows...seems boring to me!

 

I understand your point, I once prayed for my whole bloodline going back to the beginning and so hope to relieve those who were in purgatory, maybe this is a way of fulfilling your duty to your ancestors without presuming anything. Interestingly the first time I ever did this I did it for my whole bloodline without specifying those in purgatory and I did so while in Church. The moment I formed the intention there was a sudden sound of screeching and discordant music, everyone seemed aware of it and the celebrant stopped, looked around uncertainly and said 'Did anyone else hear that?'. I now just pray for my ancestors in purgatory rather than all of them.

 

I am reminded of small children.
You love your children, you would do anything for your children, because you love them as much (maybe more) as you love your own life. However in your mind's eye, you can see the mistakes they are going to make. You don't want them to make them, you really hope they won't make them. But you know them well. And you know that, in all likliehoodthey are going to do exactly what you don't want them to do.

But you hope, and you pray... what seems inevitable happens, but you still love them... and the cycle goes round again. It doesn't matter what you tell yourself, you hope, and you pray...

 

Actually, not just small children. I see it's worse with older children.
I could grow rich from the amount of times another parent has said to me, "You've got it all to come"

 

As I sit here pondering the All Knowing part of God I just can't help but wonder that as part of our FREE WILL, God does not know our fate in the end. I think if He did it limits our free will. I think that God in His mercy and love completely limits His knowing when it comes to our free will and salvation. Think about it. I find that I only have true free will if God doesn't know if I will end up in heaven or hell. He is waiting with anticipation and grace sent rooting for us to use our completely unrestricted free will to choose HIM. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. I think it would show that He loves me more if He restricted His knowledge in this area. I would find Him more motivated to help than if He already knew. I think it would be a great gift if He put restrictions on His Knowing. It just seems to me that we don't have true and unrestricted free will if God knows ahead of time. In other words as part of our free will and not being puppets He limits Himself out of love for us knowing we might choose against Him but He refuses to compromise our free will by even Knowing Himself.

 

It is not necessarily true. Some teenagers actually come to be much better than young children...

 

That's good to hear because I, sincerely, hope so.
I watch many teenagers with their parents and I'm sad, and traumatised at the thought my children would one day be the same.

 

Just to add a little bit more to my last post. I think that it is true that God has limited His All Power out of love for us by giving us free will. He makes Himself vulnerable in this area. It seems reasonable to me that He could also limit His All Knowing for the same reason.

 

They won't. The main way to teach children is by your own example. If your words do not differ from what you do, they will see that. And talk to them - like to the best friends. Kids know and understand. Even when they are little - share your burdens and they will appreciate that.

 

I've been told by someone that life is like a giant tree.The roots are in the ground and that is the past, the trunk is the present and as you look up into the tree (especially in the winter) you see all these branches branching out again and again, and again...These are possible paths to the same point. Some people are born as strong branches within a family to PRAY the family into heaven. We have MANY paths we can take. Choices. Our free will is 'disrupted' 'interrupted' and 'enhanced' by Masses, prayers, sacrifices and other's choices, which makes us wax and wane into the paths of others. God chooses to 'impart grace' at chosen times to allow us to choose HIM and to draw closer to HIM. That is why the word TRUST is so powerful when we talk about God. The Adversary uses our weakness, our sinfulness, our pride and shame to take that trust away so we cannot 'see the forest for the trees' and see God working in our lives. Often I am in awe that I CAN SEE---I CAN HEAR--GOD IN THE WORLD....WHEREAS, MANY FROM MY OWN SIBLINGS, PARENTS ETC. CANNOT. I never understood that until Fr. Mark's video talked about HEALING THE FAMILY TREE--and he said, "You may be the one that God put into your family line to be the conduit to get the family tree healed and into heaven." We all have missions, and if we look at Judas and how much Christ loved him and how many choices he made that were bad---but Christ did NOT STOP HIM---but he gave him the same amount of grace as Peter, he just refused God's trust and love.
Hope that makes sense!!

 

MS7 I have often wondered what my mission in life is--what is God's purpose for me. When reading your post it just popped into my head--I guess God spoke through you.

 

I was thinking Jimmy of a model to explain what might happen. Another way of looking at is a film, where God freezes things in place , like in a single frame for all eternity. They would still exist as in a single frame shot but with no pain.

It's pure speculation and probably off the mark but it opens us to the truth that God's power is infinite and he has a whole range of possibilities at His disposal.

 

Insearch, I think although God's power is infinite He has handcuffed Himself , so to speak by His love. Love cannot be forced and if the Fallen Angels choose not to love that is their choice.

I read a story one time about a mystic, a nun, I forget her name who used to be pestered by the devil who put a very ,very difficult question about such matters into her head. Try as she might she could not find a solution.

So she went to her confessor a Jesuit who was flammoxed by the question and took it to his brothers, some very well educated theologians in community. They discussed it together and were also knocked over by it, no answer. So they upped the question to their University colleagues in Paris who again bombed and sent it on to Rome.

After a few days hard work they came up with an answer but were amazed at the subtlety and depth of the question and wanted to know who had asked it in the first place. They were astonished when they heard it had come from a simple uneducated nun.

The confessor realised at once that the question had come direct from the devil, gave her the Rome answer , warned her of the source of the question and warned her never to repeat it to anyone.

I guess the moral of the story is, keep it simple.

Psalm 131:1
A song of ascents. Of David.

My heart is not proud, LORD, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me.

 

So true Padraig. But I could also point to a scripture that speaks of searching for a deeper truth:

Proverbs 2:3-5..."If you scream for insight and call loudly
for understanding. If you search it out as you would hidden treasure, then the Lord will be awesome to you, and you will come into possession of the knowledge of God."

 

Yes, but I think there are such things as , 'The Secrets of the King'.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

I think when Our Lady was given the message by the angel Gabriel she must have had a billion questions yet asked only one...

I notice too that in the Apparitions of Mary there are often ,'Secrets'.

I think it is very good to ask questions, but it is also very good to know we will not always be given answers. One of the biggest of course being the Second Coming of Christ and the End of the World, a time and date we are told known not even to the angels....sometimes I think we are like very small children who ask questions their parents simple cannot answer as to do so would harm the child...or fill it with anxiety, leaving it in a maze of wandering complexity.

But its fun to speculate.

 

Ahhh....the wonderment of God. Isn't is just a marvelous and spectacular journey we are on? The attempts made to penetrate the being of God and float in His mercy and love and presence.

 

Happy Divine Mercy Sunday, everyone!!!

Since the question of the predestination have greatly bothered me I've searched the internet a bit and what I've found is somewhat reassuring - there is actually two positions and both attempts at explanation are ecclesiastically permissible.
Which means that there is no dogmatic position on the issue.
And since the issue is widely discussed and disputed by theologians it is very far from being decided.



http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/11/catholic-predestination-ludwig-ott.html

 

I was a little confused until this last paragraph which upholds the teaching on free will. Things are clearer and in context, now.

Safe in the Father's Arms!