questions & comments on True Devotion to Mary

I and a few others are reading True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis de Montfort and I knew it wouldn't be long before having a question...around page 10 to be more precise

He keeps talking about the "predestinates"...who exactly are the predestinates? At first I thought priests...then people who were chosen before time to be alive during the second coming...then I change my mind again. He mentions them often, so I'd like to have a clear understanding of who those folks are. Thanks!

 

Good question, Potatosack. I found some good info at this link:

http://therosarytrail.com/true-devotion-to-mary-4/

Here is the answer to your question:
Just as in the natural and corporal generation of children there are a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there are a Father, who is God, and a Mother, who is Mary. All the true children of God, the predestinate, have God for their Father and Mary for their Mother. He who has not Mary for his Mother has not God for his Father. This is the reason why the reprobate, such as heretics, schismatics and others, who hate our Blessed Lady or regard her with contempt and indifference, have not God for their Father, however much they boast of it, simply because they have not Mary for their Mother. For if they had her for their Mother, they would love and honor her as a true child naturally loves and honors the mother who has given him life.
The most infallible and indubitable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and the reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady, endeavoring by their words and examples to diminish the worship and love of her, openly or hiddenly, and sometimes by misrepresentation. Alas! God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them, for they are Esaus.

 

thanks Tina. I googled the word, but couldn't find a good catholic response. and of course, it was right in the book itself!

so, they are anyone who believes God is their Father and Mary their Mother. and they would be a true child of God. I guess I was expecting something more complex, or I thought maybe it was a word used a few hundred years ago when this was written. thanks again!

 

"If Jesus Christ, the Head of men, is born in Mary, then the predestinate, who are members of that Head, ought also to be born in her by a necessary consequence. One and the same mother does not bring forth into the world the head without the members... So in like manner in the order of grace, the head and the members are born of one and the same mother." St. Louis de Monfort True Devotion 32

#2782 CCC
We can adore the Father because He caused us to be reborn to His Life by adopting us as His children in His only Son: by baptism, He incorporates us into the Body of His Christ; through the annointing of His Spirit who flows from the Head to the members, He makes us other Christs.

God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as His sons, has conformed us to the Glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropiately called "Christs".

The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, "Father!" because he has now begun to be a son.

 

predestinate : a person subject to predestination.


I'm sorry but this topic is painful - and in this sense for me: that one must hold on tightly to one's belief that God is all Good, and just repeat it's a mystery!

I had a feeling this was what Louis de Montfort was referring to. And didn't even want to research it to confirm that it is a doctrine of our faith, so uncomfortable do i find this doctrine. But i can see that what has been posted hasn't touched on the heart of the matter. So here goes

I c&p the start of the EWTN article on predestination.Click on the link to read the rest.


A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP
James Akin

Predestination means many things to many people. All Christian churches believe in some form of predestination, because the Bible uses the term [1], but what predestination is and how it works are in dispute.
In Protestant circles there are two major camps when it comes to predestination: Calvinism and Arminianism [2]. Calvinism is common in Presbyterian, Reformed, and a few Baptist churches. Arminianism is common in Methodist, Pentecostal, and most Baptist churches [3].
Even though Calvinists are a minority among Protestants today, their view has had enormous influence, especially in this country. This is partly because the Puritans and the Baptists who helped found America were Calvinists, but it is also because Calvinism traditionally has been found among the more intellectual Protestants, giving it a special influence.
Calvinists claim God predestines people by choosing which individuals will accept his offer of salvation. These people are known as "the elect" [4]. They are not saved against their will. It is because God has chosen them that they will desire to come to him in the first place. Those who are not among the elect, "the reprobate," will not desire to come to God, will not do so, and thus will not be saved [5].
Arminians claim God predestines people by pronouncing (but not deciding) who will accept salvation. He makes this pronouncement using his foreknowledge, which enables him to see what people will do in the future. He sees who will choose to accept his offer of salvation. The people who God knows will repent are those he regards as his "elect" or "chosen" people.
The debate between Calvinists and Arminians is often fierce. These groups frequently accuse each other of teaching a false gospel, at least on a theoretical level, although on a practical level there is little difference between the two since both groups command people to have "faith alone" in order to be saved [6].
The debate is centered on the well-known formula TULIP. Each letter of this acronym stands for a different doctrine held by classical Calvinists [7] but rejected by Arminians. The doctrines are: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints.
It is important for Catholics to know about these subjects: First, Catholics are often attacked by Calvinists who misunderstand the Catholic position on these issues. Second, Catholics often misunderstand the teaching of their own Church on predestination. Third, in recent years there has been a large number of Calvinists who have become Catholics [8]. By understanding Calvinism better, Catholics can help more Calvinists make the jump.

Pasted from <http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm>

 

The Catholic Teaching on Predestination and Reprobation

Contrary to the impressions of many, Catholic theology actually has the doctrines of Predestination and Reprobation.
Predestination in Catholic understanding (at least how Thomists interpret the diverse declarations of the Church) means that God determined the number of those who will be saved, and only those who were determined (the elect) will be saved and nothing else, without regard to their future merit. Men were predestined to heaven not because God foresaw that they persevered in the cooperation with His grace, but that they were able to perseveringly cooperate because God predestined them. No addition and no subtraction will ever happen. Hence, God does not only foreknew who actually will be saved, but He Himself positively decreed that they alone will be saved.
Reprobation is consequent to the concept of Predestination. One must distinguish between positive reprobation and negative reprobation. The former, which is not the Catholic notion of reprobation, means that God positively decreed certain men to hell. It is tantamount to saying that God created these men for hell. The latter is the Catholic position. Negative reprobation merely implies God’s absolute and immutable will not to grant that which is necessary (efficacious grace) to attain heaven. In other words, those who were reprobated are those who were not predestined to eternal bliss, or that God immutably decreed from eternity their exclusion from salvation (heaven). This is the position of St. Augustine, St. Thomas, and all Thomists. Calvin has the same concept of predestination with the Catholic Church, but differs in his concept of reprobation. His is positive reprobation. However, it is certainly arguable that Calvin merely advocated negative reprobation.
God thus eternally decree who are those who will be saved, and in consequence also decree eternally who are those who will not. God from eternity, that is, before all ages, determined those who are excluded from heaven.
Hence, there are two Catholic dogmas with regards to this.
One is the dogma of predestination:
God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. (De fide.) [Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 242.]
And the second is the dogma of reprobation:
God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain mean, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.) [Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 245.]
In St. Thomas’ own words, “but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.” (S.Th, I. Q23, A3) However, He did not positively or directly will that they be damned in hell.
Should we then blame God for those who suffer in hell? The answer is no! This is because God is not the cause of the sins of those who were already reprobated. God did not predestined the reprobates to sin, hence we cannot impute the guilt to God. The reprobates themselves are guilty because of their own sins which they committed out of their own free will, and thus they justly merit hell.
.....

Pasted from <http://catholicposition.blogspot.co.uk/>

Again click on the link to hurt your head even more

 

Jerry - I am uncomfortable with the idea of predestination for the same reason you are. We aren't predestined at birth for heaven or hell. I realized that de Montfort must have meant something other than predestination at birth. He is basically saying that love of the Blessed Mother, through the rosary, consecration etc,. is the surest way of getting to heaven. Of course, we need to follow the rest of Catholic teaching as well but she will assist us with all of that if we love her by our Hail Mary's, consecration, the rosary, etc.. With our Blessed Mother's intercession, we are on the narrow road to heaven.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/saint.php?n=450

Here is an excerpt:
That he also met with opposition, especially from the Jansenists, a heretical movement within the Church that believed in absolute Predestination, in which only a chosen few are saved, and the rest damned. Much of France was influenced by Jansenism, including many bishops, who banished St. Loius-Marie from preaching in their dioceses. He was even poisoned by Jansenists in La Rochelle, but survived, though he suffered ill health after.
While recuperating from the effects of the poisoning, he wrote the masterpiece of Marian piety, "True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin," which he correctly prophesied would be hidden by the devil for a time. His seminal work was discovered 200 years after his death.

Here is more from the EWTN site:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/Handbook/Mary.htm

The references that Louis de Montfort makes to the spiritual maternity abound in his writings. Our Lady is "Our Mother," and the titles he gives to the Mother of all the predestined read like a special litany composed in honor of her spiritual maternity: "My good mother," "Mother of Sweetness," "My true Mother," "Mother of the Predestinate," "The best of Mothers," "Mother of Goodness," "Mother of Gifts," "Mother of Grace," "My dear and well-beloved Mother," "His own dear Mother and Yours." In an echo of the Fathers, Mary is also the "Mother of the Living," "Mother of Fair Love," "Mother of Christians," "Mother of His Members." And so often this same truth is proclaimed without the term "Mother": "Christians, lend me your ears, / Listen to me, you chosen / Because I recount the marvels / Of the woman from whom you were born" (H 77:3).

It is evident that for Montfort, the spiritual maternity cannot be understood as an adoptive or legal function or in the sense that she merely acts towards us like a mother. Rather, with the three Persons of the Trinity and definitely subordinate to them, she is efficaciously and lovingly cooperating in our incorporation into our final goal, the risen Christ, the Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom. We are truly her children.

Moreover, this is for Montfort a dynamic role. The saint declares that "all the predestinate, in order to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, are in this world hidden in the womb of the Blessed Virgin where they are guarded, nourished, brought up, and made to grow by that good Mother until she has brought them forth to glory after death, which is properly the day of their birth" (TD 33; SM 14; LEW 213).67 The entire cosmos is, we could say, "in the womb" of Mary, where she is—always in a subordinate manner—forming us into Jesus come to his full stature.

 

Wow! Cathy you probably picked one of the most difficult theological issues in the whole prickly garden. ..But one of the most interesting as it explains so much that is mystical.

God knows everything , nothing in the past, present or future lies hidden from Him to whom time does not exist, He himself being the Eternal now.

This being so God , even from before our births, or being in Our Mothers womb knew us through and through, including our final destination be it heaven or hell.

We however must work out this destiny through our own choice in order that, 'All righteousness be fulfilled

This is not not predestination, which is a heresy , God knows ; He does not decide. It is we who make the choices , not God.

But I will tell you something else I believe; God not only knows where we are going to heaven or hell , but the places we are going to in heaven and hell.

The degree of our salvation or damnation. This explains much that happens to people through life. In the lives of the great saints, for instance we see prevenient grace working very powerfully to see they get where they are meant to as expediously as possible.

In the case of the wicked we often see their lives cut short unexpectedly to stop them going to an even lower circle of hell than they might otherwise...in God's mercy.

Beyond that the devil himself is very clever and often, even from babyhood sees those destined for a high place in heaven and pursues them with implacable fury. St Therese of Liseaux and Padre Pio are excellent examples of this.

 

Thank you padraig.

 

WOW. This is absolute Calvinism and total defiance of the God's Mercy. In my humble opinion.

 

And just to add - in this theory there is no place for Our Lord Jesus Christ, since his sacrifice for all mankind is irrelevant if there is only predestined number of souls to be saved.

 

Padraig...this is something that has always bothered me. If God knows ahead of time before He even creates the soul that the soul is going to be damned forever in hell, than why did He create the soul at all? Something seems cruel about that if true.

The only thing that I could come up with as an answer is that maybe that soul that will be damned forever is the reason another soul is saved. But even then I am not completely satisfied with the answer.

 

A very good question, Jimmy and one I have often thought about and simply do not know the answer too.

However there was a hermitess from England ,Blessed Julian of Norwich who used to have conversations with Jesus, asking Him questions. She asked Him about hell one time and Jesus said in response (very famously):

'Everything will be well and all manners of things will be well' (at the end of time).


Which I guess is just another way of saying we just have to take these things on trust, that Jesus will straiten things out.

I think we could ask the same question about Lucifer himself. for if God knew that he and the other bad angels where going to rebel , why create them in the first place?

Who knows? But since He did create them it must be part of His plan and as part of His plan that evil angels/people had to be.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that our salvation is not simply about individuals, but as families, countries, neighbourhoods countries, whole choirs of angels. That we are all of us in a way in it together.

But I honestly do not know. I suspect no one knows, maybe not even the angels.

 

I guess this is a base for the modern belief that at the end everyone, including the demons will be saved - the opposite dimension of the predestination

 

No. For if she had suggested such a thing she would be a heretic going both against scripture and the the teachings of the Church. Back in those days they'd have hauled her out and burnt her if they thought for a moment that's what she meant. Instead the whole country regarded her as a saint.

All we know if we accept this Word is that God is going to 'fix things' at the End of Time. How He does this only He knows.

 

She did not suggest such a thing, those were the others, which based their conclusions on those words . I am just speculating, since the theory of universal salvation has to come from somewhere, and it clearly is newageish

 

No doubt. Just as there are those who misuse Scripture.

I of course do not know how will sort these things out at the End of Time. I just trust He knows what He is doing and has His own very good reasons for keeping somethings to Himself.

But it is such an interesting question and one I have prayed often about so I will give the result of my own theory...which is probably quite crazy.

Let me know what you think.

Have you ever heard of a 'Black Hole' . Well a 'Black Hole' draws all things to itself and condenses them with an enormous gravitational field, suns Galaxy's are sucked into this black whole under gigantic pressure.

I wonder if at the End of Time things might not be like this for the Fallen Angels, the Damned and hell itself. All rolled up into a Black Hole like the full stop at the end of a sentence. Existing but not existing at the same time. Like the full stop at the end of a book? Having served their own purpose in God's plan. A king of frozen ,tiny yuck.

It' s probably nonsense , just something I thought of in prayer.

 

This is actually one of two reasons that makes sense to my wondering about this even though I know it is against church teaching. The only things that seem logical to me are that all souls are saved in the end OR God limits His all knowing in this area somehow so that we truly have free will. If He limits his knowing as to if a soul ends up in heaven or hell than it would make sense. He doesn't allow Himself to know. Otherwise what is His motivation for sending grace to a soul. What would be the point if He knew the soul would disregard His grace in the end anyway.

It actually blows my mind when you really think deep about it. That God knows everything ahead of time. Everything would seem so pointless to me on His part. I just can't wrap my brain around this thought of ALL KNOWING. Only thing that rings true or more satisfying to me is that He limits Himself some how so the rest of us have true free will and our relationship with God is truly based on something not known. We grapple together to make it happen.

But as Padraig says...I suppose we will never know and must trust.

 

Padraig...Not sure if I understand. Are you saying that in this type of black hole that the damned souls in hell are in a frozen state and not suffering anymore?

 

Well, it is certainly a possibility, I mean Black Hole. Nobody knows what happens in it, those are only theories and I might invent things, but it seems to me I've read somewhere that at the end of the Black Hole will be a Big Bang

Honestly, the theory of predestination with finite number of souls seems much more like Black Hole to me... If having the choice I'd rather allow universal salvation, even if it seems not just, than predestined damnation, which seems incredibly cruel, and Our Lord is a total Love and Mercy. ( I hope I am not blasphemous )