My Protestant upbringing rejected modern-day prophets, as they believed all prophecy has been documented in the Bible. That there's nothing to add. In the early 1980s, the Kansas City area experienced a sudden "explosion" of self-proclaimed prophets; enough so that they were called The Kansas City Prophets. A family in my hometown, who came to attend my childhood church between 1977 to 1983, moved to Kansas City about that time ... and one especially was very taken in by it all, nearing fanaticism. So I ignore them all. Also, over the years I've known many people who are very prideful and seeking attention (whether they realize it or not), who claim they're doing this or that "to glorify the Lord."
Many years ago I went to see a "modern-day prophet" in a Church in France. She has a good spiritual director and was often invited to speak in Churches where the parish priest was also present, so presumably she also had the approval of the bishop. After her talk, several of us gathered to exchange with the parish priest and he was arguing most passionately that while he had no issue with anything she said, all of it was already in scripture and so we have everything that we need in scripture. He obviously didn't understand that maybe he had everything he needed but many of the sheep needed to hear God's voice talking again, "live" as it were through a prophet. Several people tried to explain this but he remained stubborn in his position, almost belittling the faithful for needing these new voices. I think that many priests have faith but in an intellectual way, and not filled with the Holy Spirit. Many have not received the Holy Spirit in baptism, so there is something missing, which is another reason to pray for them. Fr Raniero Cantelamessa comes to mind as an example of a good priest with great knowledge for whom everything changed after he received the Holy Spirit. In the prophets, there is the active presence of God in the Holy Spirit and that draws people, touches something interiorly that even an excellent sermon can't touch if the Spirit is absent. That's how I see it anyway. If God is sending His prophets, He has reasons that we should respect. If more priests had the Spirit, they would exert less control over the faithful and offer better guidance for their spiritual needs. And if the faithful had solid guidelines, they could discern the signs of false prophets and see when the words produce good or bad fruits. Good fruits = brings us closer to Jesus, increases love of the Church, makes us want to receive the Sacraments, etc. Good guidance is not about directing people to approved prophecies either as some of those can do more harm than good. I read MJ Jahenny (often recommended by trads) and La Salette years ago and would never recommend those as starter books, but others where Christ talks lovingly to the soul.
What does this say for the promotion of Medjugorje? The successive local bishops there have repeatedly said its not of supernatural origin.
Prophecy is such a tough one. Even those with the best motives and intentions in their hearts can be deceived by the devil, and this is a huge test of obedience and humility for those who do get mystic experiences in prayer. I have had them, and I'm sure many of you have had them. As the years go by I can look back and see how the devil tried to test me. I was never one to share my experiences, and the few "prophecies" I got about future events .I really didn't trust or share except with a close friend or two. What I truly am coming to understand now that I was told by a good priest 23 years ago, is that anyone who is disobedient to the Church is open to the devil's influence no matter what. So no matter HOW prayerful and holy one is, if they open that tiny rebellious door against whom Jesus put in authority over them, the devil pounces. Does he take away their good intentions, their devoutness? No. He USES that to confuse, to bedazzle, and eventually to pull the followers of his prophets away from the Church. The whole purpose is to take people away from the Sacraments because the devil knows we cannot be saved without them. (The devil knows this because Jesus Himself proclaimed it! Even though protestants do not believe Jesus' words, the devil does!)
So true but I think there is a big difference between a prophet who has been forbidden to publicly proclaim his experiences, and those apparitions like Garabandal and Medjugorje that are NOT forbidden. As far as I have heard, the Church is okay with and even encourages pilgrimages to both Garabandal and Medjugorje.
Didn't the supreme Bishop, John Paul II, have something to do with getting those out of the way? We don't trust his actions then?
Exactly Brian. This should give pause to those who follow Medjugorge. Fr Ripperger has addressed this in some of his talks. And so has Fr Hardon. They clarified the whole issue for me some time ago. (I went there btw in 1988).
I don't follow Fatima or Akita or Joe Bloggs or Father what's his name. I follow Jesus Christ. And if I read alleged messages from whatever source that happens to come my way, I weigh them against the Faith of our fathers. If they fall short I disregard them as possibly misunderstood by the person who is sharing them, or downright misrepresenting the Truth who is a person we know and love called Jesus Christ. The crux of it really comes down to Saint Paul who told us to keep what is good. What is good will be in conformity with all that is revealed in Holy Scripture and or confirmed by the Church Fathers, even through the true Magisterium of the Church to our own day. What does not ring true and faithful to that simple guideline, I tend to disregard and in charity leave to God. In other words I continue to follow Jesus Christ and His Gospels, and avoid messages or messengers who cause confusion to the Faith we have always held dear. As this is the internet where all sorts of interpretation can be found from a simple statement, can I clarify. In Fatima, or Akita, or Lourdes there has never been found any contradiction with the Faith handed down to us by the Apostles and their successors in the true Magisterium. Even as in the case of Lourdes where the Immaculate Conception was made known and later confirmed by the Holy Father Pius XII as a dogma of Faith to be believed by all the faithful. Indeed some of the Fatima messages were totally not understood when they were first made known, like for example Russia who was known to be a very faith filled country back when we were told Russia would spread her errors throughout the world. No one had a clue what that meant. But we were asked by Our Lady to make the five first Saturdays as a means to make reparation to her Immaculate Heart for all the outrages offences and sacrileges which cause her so much suffering; and only God knows how it offends His Majesty when these sins are committed. Anyway, I hope you are able to understand how some of us think in a more open and accepting way to be ready to respond should the Lord our God have something to clarify so our minds are not held captive in darkness or confusion in any age. God bless and take care of you and your family now and always.
This, for me, illustrates the problem raised by Aidan in the first post on this thread. Priests didn't receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism? Really? What about at their Confirmation? Ordination? The Holy Spirit is absent from those Sacraments? God rations out the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments? I think not. Jesus gives us His body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist, yet people need to "hear" God speak to them "live" through some "prophet". Seems to me that any shortcomings were not in the parish priest but were in those for whom the inspired written word of God and receiving the Word made flesh in Holy Communion were not enough. Perhaps, rather than a "prophet" those people needed Catechism classes. That some "prophet" is permitted to speak in a parish doesn't automatically mean that the prophet or prophecies have the approval of the person in the Church with the authority to declare the person or prophecy worthy of belief. Satan is very, very clever. With the impious, heretics and apostates in his back pocket, he is clever enough to use different strategies when he comes for the pious. Bottom line for me is this question: Am I smarter than Satan and am I holy enough to determine on my own authority whether prophets and their prophecies are from God or Satan? The answer in my case is a resounding NO. If you consider yourself smart enough and holy enough, go right ahead and follow whomever or whatever you please. Just remember that Satan can mimic anything except perhaps obedience. He may have some knowledge of the future; he knows who are his secret followers; he knows who has been deceived; he knows the agenda of the world's powers; he knows our weaknesses and uses them to attract us. He is more than capable of delivering a consensus of misleading prophecies through those whom he has lured into believing that they, and not the Church, speak with the authority of God. Waiting for a declaration from the Church might be the only time I can claim to have the virtue of patience but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
A big red flag for me is how Ireland has gone to hell in a handbasket obeying every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes down the pipeline, as long as it is not the British. Ireland is in the same state as China and Afghanistan with regards to being able to receive the Sacraments these days. Does anyone wonder why? Yes, Obedience, but not without a well informed conscience, or put another way, obedience in ignorance is a tool that has brought Ireland to it's knees. Caused by a lack of catechesis for so many years it must be two or three generations at least. IMHO To hell with the devil.
...all of it was already in scripture and so we have everything that we need in scripture... The priest was correct! This is in the Catechism. Everything we need for salvation we have in scripture: 65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2: In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty. 27 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm ...And if the faithful had solid guidelines, they could discern the signs of false prophets and see when the words produce good or bad fruits. Good fruits = brings us closer to Jesus, increases love of the Church, makes us want to receive the Sacraments, etc... The faithful do have guidelines to help them discern messengers. On the Vatican website, you can find this document: "Norms Regarding the Manner of Proceeding in the Discernment of Presumed Apparitions or Revelations. It was written by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...cfaith_doc_19780225_norme-apparizioni_en.html
St. Paul said “test everything” first. The apostle John told us to test for false prophets specifically. If you read something great from one of the “catholic” websites pushing for abortion or women priests would you apply the “keep what is good” standard in the same way you do for prophetic messages? Would you share the posts or videos from those sites and those people?
Julia, With respect, you have posted messages from two "prophets" who were judged false by the Church in this thread. I do not understand why you expose forum members to this material. The time for the laity to discern for themselves in regard to these seers is over; when the Church issues a judgement, Catholics have a duty of obedience. Anyone who "follows Jesus Christ" follows the guidance of his Church.
Does anyone wonder why? I have been wondering for the past year. At first I put it all down to the pachamama business in Rome. But "Rome" is an easy scapegoat. On reflection, after decades of sacrilegious Communions throughout the world, perhaps God decided to put a stop to it. In Ireland, we had people replace God with their political ideology (be it masonic or Marxist, left or right) and many or them would never miss Sunday Mass. Some may well be daily communicants. They chose their God when they voted for abortion and gay marriage. We all need a dose of humility, and God is dishing it out via a dreadful government and, possibly, Bishops who can't be sure of the faithful's backing should they take a stand against the government. The Bishops may or may not be holy but they aren't fools. They know that people who supported gay marriage and abortion which didn't directly affect them are more likely to oppose the Bishops if their political gods convince them that their lives are at stake. And no government here (right or left) will do anything to displease the multi-national companies. Pharmaceuticals account for 40% of our exports. Fat chance of any politician here saying anything to displease Pfizer or any other of the pharmaceutical or tech giants. And if he did, he could kiss goodbye to his political ambitions. Our nation's soul has long since been bought and paid for. Right now, we have a government that seems to have masonic influences. I expect that to be replaced eventually by a communist regime. It makes little difference to me whether the secular power banning me from Mass is a capitalist or communist - whether the oppressor is a hardline atheist or a Catholic in name only. The results will be the same. I'm sure that the Bishops also see that coming down the line and are hoping that by co-operating with the devil they know, it will buy them some time to prepare for the devil they don't know. You may be sure that Satan is well aware of the secularists' agenda. None of that changes the fact that those Bishops have an authority which has not been conferred on me. In fact, the only authority I have with regard to private revelation is that I can disregard it without losing my immortal soul.
The devil works relentlessly where the faith has been strongest to create weakness by cutting of the branches, so it does not continue to bear fruit. Ireland church like a tree that was planted in good soil by abundant water, her roots will not be uprooted. the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.
I don't visit sites that have pro choice or extreme lefty notions, so can't tell you what I might do given that particular choice you mentioned. You know the old saying, "if you lie down with the dogs you get up with the itch," personal opinion,,, that would be why staying away from sites that promote sin is best practice. When you make a cup of tea or coffee, or have a piece of cake, what is the first thing you do....probably test it for taste and decide whither it is a nice cuppa, or a nice piece of cake. That would be the way we all react to something we read or see or hear. We test it instinctively, like your responses to my views for instance. I am fast becoming aware that you have an opinion which you must be convinced is superior to mine and like a dog with a bone urge onwards to keep digging with tooth and nail in the hope you will cancel my freedom to choose not to join the gang and trash anyone who has not had formal Church approval before I would give their messages a chance. Not happening. And when you think about it, when Jesus was sentenced to Crucifixion, most of the people joined the gang and bayed for His Blood. They were assuming the religious authorities at that time were right, and in that sense the crowd obeyed. Not my style, so this would go on forever and we would never come to agree. You want to cancel everything that has not got the stamp of approval. We are not even obliged to believe apparitions or messages when they are approved by the Church. I value freedom of speech, preferably not in my face, we can agree to disagree, end of conversation, no offense to you. God bless you and your views.
You are on a Roman Catholic Forum, and come across like some evangelical on a mission to enlighten the ignorant. Maybe that is what is different. You have made your point in your first reply. I have made my point in enough ways to convince you I don't buy into your objection to discerning alleged messages which have not been genuinely closed down by the Roman Catholic Church. As you point out you have responded to me. Now for the last time, I would like to terminate this conversation. God bless you and your views.
