Like a pig, or like a lamb?

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by BrianK, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    Pope St. JPII, in one of his writings, made reference to the right of individuals to arm themselves against unjust aggression. Given his experience with first the Nazis and then the communists, I’m not at all surprised.

    He specifically mentioned the right of the individual to access to small arms if I remember correctly.

    I used to be able to locate the excerpt but with the current level of internet censorship I can no longer find it.
     
    padraig likes this.
  2. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I'm not a pacifist.

    I'm just writing as someone who experienced great violence and used great violence right back.

    I'd be very, very, very slow indeed to casually recommend it to others

    Think first what you're getting your selves into
     
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  3. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Pope St John Paul never used violence himself.

    He was invited to join the Polish resistance, he said no, that speaks for itself.
     
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  4. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I often find that the greatest moral advocates of violence are those who have had absolutely no personal experience of it themselves.
     
  5. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    There is a fundamental difference in moral theology between the application of force to stop an unjust aggressor, which is a duty, up to and including the death of that aggressor if absolutely necessary, and the use of violence.

    They may look alike. They may achieve the same end.

    But morally they are NOT equivalent.

    I fully support the application of force in stopping an unjust aggressor.

    Legitimate defense

    2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
    In the eyes of the Church, the basic community is the family. Therefore the father legitimately holds authority to apply force in the defense of his family, and the right to use arms to repel aggressors.

    Of course, I NEVER advocate violence.

    We need to learn this distinction ASAP.
     
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  6. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Unleash the dogs of war.

    When you let the dogs of war they might bite the ones you want them too, on the other hand they might just go for the nearest cat.

    War and violence is just so uncertain.

    I repeat Iam not a pacifist, neither of the course is our HolyMother the Church.

    I just wish I could be as certain in advocating the clinical moral rectitude of the death of men as others might.

    In all wars throughout history, it has always been the innocent who died the most.

    Once you release the dogs of war they go were they whether than you, would go.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  7. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I like the post ftom non sum dignus where he quoted from the catechism and made some very sensible points to remember and use as a guide.
     
  8. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Bump
     
  9. padraig

    padraig Powers

    We prefer the easy answers.
    The black and white.

    We never like to think that things can be ambivalent.

    We like to stand on solid ground than to be faced with swamps
     
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  10. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    Please understand, I am NOT disagreeing with you Padraig.

    My whole life I’ve had the typical American male mentality, crossed with the above understanding of the Catechism, that it’s my duty to defend and protect the innocent in my small circle, even if that requires the use of deadly force. (Not violence.)

    However, I fear that what is about to befall us will be so violent, bloody and all encompassing that it might be better to leave the self defense tools in a drawer and just face what comes with open arms and complete abandonment.

    If we take one step down the road of the moral application of deadly force, there may not be any way to prevent being swept into general cataclysmic violence.
     
  11. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Yes.

    Poor America.

    I recall the Moral justification for General Sherman's March through Georgia.
     
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  12. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    In the eyes of the Church, the family is the basic unit of society. The father’s duty is the protection of the family. His role in carrying that out, even if the application of deadly force is necessary, is therefore his role of legitimate public authority in the eyes of the Church.

    In the days ahead, police forces are going to be defunded, police are going to quit or retire en masse, and the only “legitimate public authority” remaining will be the the father, the head of the basic unit of society, the family.
     
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  13. padraig

    padraig Powers

    The only difference between you and me , poor Brian , is that you're thinking about doing things that I've already done, many, many, many times over and that your attempting to justify yourself for things I wish to God I'D never done in my own bloody past.

    Good luck with that.

    I wish to God I'd never done them.

    I wish to God you never do.

    Don't repeat my past.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  14. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I saw my home wrecked, my father and brother imprisoned without trial, three other brothers imprisoned, beaten as a Catholic from an early age. I choose violence as a response and bitterly regret it.
     
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  15. AED

    AED Powers

    Your words carry a lot of weight.
     
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  16. padraig

    padraig Powers

    What eventually drove me to violence was when I saw my mother crying when she came home crying when she saw my brother tortured .

    But the answer to hate is never hate.

    Or to violence, violence.
     
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  17. padraig

    padraig Powers

    We have only to look to Mary when she saw her only son murdered on the Cross
     
  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Our only answer is.

    Love those who hate us.

    And if they strike us on one cheek to turn the other.

    To return hatred with love and to count no one our enemy and all as our brothers
     
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  19. padraig

    padraig Powers

    You are imagining what might happen, the very worst in the future.

    That might happen and maybe won't.

    I on the other hand am considering the very worst that happened to me in the past.

    That certainly did happen, many times over

    Violence was my answer.

    ..and it was the wrong one.

    I write as not one who imagines a future but experienced it as a reality in my past.
     
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  20. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I know whereof I speak.

    You simply imagine it.

    I forgive, I have a whole lot to forgive them for and if they ever choose to they'd have a whole lot more to forgive me back for and may God forgive me for it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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