But in 1960 there was no new Mass. Vernacular Mass did not come about until around 1965. There was however a decision to call a council in 1959.
The vernacular Mass was later than 1965. I put it at about 1967 or 1968. Maybe later than that in some places.
Parts of the mass were in vernacular in 1965. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9377
Well, yes, but it was the TLM. I was 17 in 1965 and I remember responding in Latin aloud. The vernacular did not make it to my parish in 1965 at all. That article does not describe my experience.
Were they trying to imitate Elvis? Then they make the ludicrous excuse that they might offend people by turning their back on them. On that basis, when I had the opportunity to attend Mass, once upon a time, I was offending everybody behind me all the time. Will those who habitually sit at the front have any chance of escaping damnation?
No document of the Council proposed the Novus Ordo. In fact, any changes (and there were always changes over the years, even in the time of Pius X and Pius XII) prescribed were urged with great caution. Let us hang the true culprits.
Here are my views 1) The ordinary form of the Mass, "the Novos Ordo Mass" is a good and Holy Mass that is to be respected by the Catholic faithful! God permitted the Novus Ordo Mass, it alone in many areas of the world nourished the majority of the Catholic faithful for over the past 50 years! God definitely gives us Himself in the Novus Ordo Mass! via His real presence in the Most Blessed Eucharist! Those that say..... Jesus may or may not be present in the Blessed Eucharist (in the NO Mass) due to the interior disposition of any one given priest, 'which can neither be determined by general consensus nor by personal interrogation', do great harm to the majority of the Catholic Faithful throughout the world. 2) The second Vatican council was a Good and Holy Council! This council elevated Our Lady and reiterated the true magisterial and traditional teaching of the Catholic church! Full Stop. Those individuals who bow to either the liberal or right wing catholic media or more especially the secular media interpretations of the council, believe twisted accounts of the Councils contents and are in fact playing into satans hands! this media onslaught has been relentless both during the council but especially post council and even more especially today 3) Pope Benedict XVI abdicated in such a way in 2013, leaving many clues for the faithful to understand that he may still hold the see of Peter and actually be our pope, but this is yet to be determined by our hierarchy! There, these are my thoughts in a nutshell. God Bless us all. Amen
I hate to fall into casuistry..... [falls into it] But could the phrase 'bad Mass' mean the Novus Ordo because of the liturgical abuses? Intrinsically, the NO, when translated faithfully from the Latin, is fine. The tweaks in the English language missal have brought it closer to the original for which we must be thankful. However, no one uses the TLM for a clown Mass, do they? We've discussed 'ad orientem' and the problem with facing the people, moving the altar crucifix aside so the congregation can see, and so on and on. And let's not get started on the 'Hagen Daas' hymns..... Luther liked hymns and had many of them in his own rituals, but that doesn't mean we have to. Since there wasn't much of a tradition of hymns in the RCC, a lot of new ones were written in the 70s and beyond. Some were (I confess it here) quite good, many were vile. That one with the refrain 'we're turning the church upside down' goes round in my head when I think of Pope Francis. The Council could be described as 'bad' because of what followed it. So far the fruits haven't been especially tasty. Re-ordering of churches, anyone? I do not believe the solution is to wind back the clocks to 1950. That cannot be done anyway. I believe it was Dom Bede Griffiths who predicted that it would take three generations to sort out the heresies and abuses. A very dear friend (RIP) told me this, and when I asked her if this meant I would live to see it she looked at me sadly. This will not matter if we are heading towards a confrontation with ultimate evil. We live about a mile from the site where the UK's nuclear warheads are assembled so we will be first to go boom.
I just now had the thought that we are NOT going back. And then I read your post. Much is wishful thinking on the parts of some members. thank you, Clare.
What came after Vatican II was obviously a rupture with what came before it and it definitely came from the "spirit of change" that was in the air during and after the council. The question then is does that make the documents of Vatican II problematic or even heretical? I would say not necessarily. Several of the orthodox bishops and cardinals saw the problems in the documents at the time, but felt they needed to remain obedient and that the documents could be read in an orthodox way if one was inclined to read them in such a manner. They saw the ambiguity as problematic, but didn't think it would wreck the havoc it did. One good example would be the Mass. Vatican II proposed keeping the Mass essentially as the TLM, but changing a few parts to the vernacular so the faithful could understand them easier. It even said chant must remain the music of the Mass in the Latin Rite because that music is so integral to the whole Mass itself. Yet does that look at all like what we got? No. Essentially the changes that were made created something entirely new and it is based on the changes Martin Luther came up with for his new Sunday services. Those very changes were designed by him to destroy the supernatural character of the Mass. He wanted it merely to be a gathering of brethren. So personally I would be for the Mass as proposed at Vatican II. The Mass as described in the documents. Not the creation that emerged from Cardinal Bugnini's hands.
On the contrary, the data don't lie. The TLM is growing by leaps and bounds. In the past decade alone it has grown something like 500%. Young people attend it and fill the seminaries. The Novus Ordo is withering on the vine.
I do see this with the TLM. But I am also referring to the hierarchy. I am of the opinion that God is going to take care of this and soon.
God is doing this despite their best efforts to stop it. It is His Church, not the hierarchy's. Catholicism has always flourished and spread in the most in difficult circumstances. If you want it to grow the best thing you can do is persecute it.
There are prophecies about a remnant Church and I know that has to come about. I am not disagreeing with you. But what we see now will be changing, imho. And I don’t know what it will look like afterward. It won’t be like 1950, pretty safe bet.
I am not referring to this type of council, I am talking about a specific council after the great punishment preceding the restoration of the Church, when a Pope and the remaining Church promote the condemnation of the errors of the current pontificate.
