When I get home later today I will post info about the hermit, Fr Maximilian who is in Pennsylvania and staying in the Barque.
Just think of what is being said, “they did indeed excommunicate themselves...”. So for speaking truth they “de facto” become heretical. That also means in order to come back into full standing with the Holy See they would, in fact, have to agree to believe and profess “the heretical” as declared by our HolyPope. I do not believe that the bishop “had no choice...”. There are always other choices. It appears to me the ecclesiastical authority chose the easy path to squash these hermits to prevent others - as an example - from pointing out the obvious heretical tendencies of the Holy See. It is indeed an abomination and I’m feeling I’m living in desolation.
Yes Mark they did speak the truth. But they added that they were severing ties with the Church. They declared a clear choice to walk out. I wish they hadn't. And yes it is desolating. We are living in a salt waste of desolation right now. Full of scorpions and sharp thorns. And all of us are struggling to find our bearings. At such a time as this we must cling even more intensely to the Blessed Sacrament. To Holy Mass while we have it. And to the Rosary. Our Lady told us repeatedly the importance of the Rosary. It is the chain that binds us to her and to heaven. Just hold on and keep going. Every effort offered up is a weapon against the evil all around us.
That is the key point, they added that they were severing ties with the Church. Before anyone did anything. They were excommunicated because they said they separated themselves from the Church. They were excommunicated. Then they turned around and said the excommunication was not valid. I can’t get sad and despondent over what seems like trickery and manipulation to me.
Bishop Ronald Gainer, Fr. Maximilian Mary (black habit), witnesses and servers after Father's 1st profession as a hermit in the Diocese of Harrisburg on Sept. 12th, 2017 This hermit offers the TLM in his hermitage.
In fairness, I don't think they said they were leaving the church. From their words, it appears that they are walking out of the false church and are remaining in the True Catholic faith. Of course that might be wrong but in their eyes at this time they see it as right and who can blame them when even Archbishop Vigano called the pachamama idoltary an abomination of desolation. So when they claim that the excommunication was not valid, I think they are just restating their belief that they are the ones in the Catholic faith and that the excommunication by heretics of a false church means nothing. I have a lot of sympathy for them hermits and being honest, I can not say whether they are right or wrong. Sure doesn't the Bible tell us that if even an angel from heaven preaches a different Gospel, let him be anathema. Galatians - "1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." If anathema applies to the pope then I think history will show them hermits to be in the right. I know its stated that the bishop has the office, but what if the bishop is under anathema too ? I think all the hermits were intending was to declare that they don't recognise the authority of Pope Francis and by stating that fact they are thereby removing themselves from association of being in the false church. I honestly don't know if that was the correct course of action. The only thing I know at this stage is that everything is a mess, but its also great considering that we know we are going to witness God triumph when the enemies think that they have won.
I agree with your last paragraph Wholeheartedly. But right now there is only one Catholic Church and they left it voluntarily. I stand by that because that is what they themselves said they did. They are not ecclesiastically in a position to decide if their beliefs are the”right” ones or not. unfortunately And I still maintain that they have cut off their nose to spite their face. Created a boatload of problems for themselves.
I believe that the meaning of this phrase is still not clear. Separating oneself from the Holy See does not equate to leaving the Catholic Church. The hermits have separated themselves from the person who appears to be occupying the seat of Peter and from his government. In reality that occupier is a heretic and a destroyer. "Not to oppose error is to approve it; and not to defend truth is to suppress it; and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them." -Pope St. Felix III +
It does equate to separation from the Catholic Church. I don’t know why you can’t see that. No pun intended. The See of Peter is the Catholic Church. It’s not up to us to judge the Pope. We have explained that several times before on these threads. I am sympathetic to how they view the issues but their actions have very grave consequences. They are accountable. And I do not desire to get into parrying any longer with you about this.
+ Separation or Excommunication from Christ's Church is the death of a soul unless it can be brought back into the only means of true and everlasting life. This should send shudders down the spine of anyone thinking that separation from Peter is in any form justified. This requires extreme clarity. Separation from Peter is Seperation from Christ's Mystical Body on earth, of which Chist is the head and the Pontiff is His representative on earth. You can not be part of Christ and voluntarily remove yourself from what He instituted (Peter as the Rock). Catholics can legally dispute issues with the Pontiff as long as he did not pronounce them Ex Cathedra. This dispute with the Pontiff can take on many forms but must always be done in a spirit of charity and love for his position and his own personal soul. Christ Himself has assured us that in matters of doctrine, the Pontiff (and all the Bishops united with him in the Church) have infallibility. In all others matters the Pontiff's views should be given serious consideration by all members of the Church. If there is a dispute about these non-ex cathedra pronouncements by the Pontiff, it is the duty of the Bishops to help bring clarity to the situation (as in the Dubia). As much as Cardinal Burke may disagree with our Pontiff on some issues, he supports and asks us to pray for Christ's representative on earth. All Catholics (no matter personal feelings about the numerous issues) should be praying for our Holy Father in unity with him. This does not take away individual liberty but in fact provides the liberty to fully come before God and ask for graces for our Pontiff in love and obedience (not seperation and disobedience). We are saved by Christ giving us His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist and the Paschal Mystery; but that is not all. It was through His obedience to His Father. Obedience is highly prized by God and when Jesus taught the Apostles how to pray in Matthew's Gospel He said "Our Father who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." If you look up the word hallowed in the footnotes of Matthew's Gospel, you will see that it not only means praise and glory to God's name, but also obedience to His will. In order for "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." first there must be praise and glory to His name and obedience to His will. This is what Jesus taught, this is how Jesus lived His life, this is how Jesus gave up His earthly life - so that we all might rise with Him in eternal life within the Trinity. Now many will say that obedience is only demanded if it is righteous (God's will). It is true that all Catholic's have a duty to follow their own conscience in matters of faith and moral's. It is also true that it is our duty to properly form that conscience so that our decision (made not on our own but through discussion with the Presbyteriat and other righteous people; with use of Thomistic Reasoning; and with use of Scripture and our Magisterium to help inform our decision) is a righteous decision. Since the Truth is God, and God is unified, all of our reasoning methods should, in principle, agree. If they do not, there is an aspect in our reasoning that is incorrect and this should be revisited before we make a final decision. Seperation from the Church will never occur if the above method of reasoning is used. Seperation seems like such an innocuous word, but it is really very old. If Pride was the first cause of sin, seperation from God was the first effect of that action. Sin and seperation are almost one in the same. Sin is not something created, it is more like a void created away from the Creator. The mighty Light Bearer disagreed with our Father about what God had in mind for a new creature. One a little less than the angels, but one made in His image and likeness, and one who even the mighty light bearer would have to serve because they would eventually be brought into the life of the Trinity through Christ Himself. We all know what satan's answer was to God the Father - I will not serve. The disobedience and seperation caused by this primordial original sin extends its roots though time and our first parents, to every seperation from God that any of God's creatures commit. The Hell that the satan is in is to me a vast void that he caused and has eternally imposed upon himself. Yes, I know that Michael and the Heavenly armies threw satan out, but the place where he is to end up is like a displaced void of hate. Still with much of his power, his greatest hate is for the Uncreated One who holds him (satan) in existence. The lifeline of what had been his light and grace, was changed by him into a chain and shackle of restrained existence in hate and eternal fire. He hates God and hates the idea that God keeps him in existence, but he wants to rule his own kingdom of hate, but can only do that because he is allowed to. If any of this sounds beyond terrrifying, this all started because an angel did not agree with what the Father had in mind, and he separated himself from life. Is what he and those who choose to join him have,considered life. No. This is not life because they have lost the image and likeness of the Creator. That image and likeness was annihilated. What is left is beyond hideous. All seperations from God in history are joined into this original seperation of the satan. There is a difference though if the seperation was reconciled through the Blood and obedience of Christ. All human sins were forgiven by Jesus' Passion, Death, and Resurrection, but we (humanity) must join ourselves with Christ (in His Church) to seek out and accept the forgiveness (due to our free will) that He has already paid the price for! Outside of His Church there is no way for this redeeming love of our Savior to mend the seperation that put a soul in satan's realm. If all are saved through the Catholic Church, then none are saved unless they become part of the Catholic Church. Voluntary seperation from the Holy See is a very, very, very bad place to be. This can easily turn into the only sin that cannot be forgiven - a sin against the Holy Spirit. A Sin against the Holy Spirit is deadly because the pride of the soul that commits it will not allow it to ask God's forgiveness (one reason why the satan cannot be forgiven). If these hermits have removed themselves from the Church (and they did by separating from Peter), they now have no recourse to reconciliation by ordinary confession. We should all pray for them so that they humbly seek to regain unity with their Bishop and the Pontiff and they can then fight their battles by the means afforded to all Christian warriors. Summing up, there is no boat outside of the Barque of Peter folks. We may not agree where the captain is steering us and it may even seem like we are heading right for the rocks. We have to remember though that it is Christ's church and our Pontiff is His servant. Jumping out of the boat is the only death that should terrify us. Even if we should hit the rocks in our time (which is possible) this would not be death but would end up in life with our God. We do believe that the passion, death and ressurection that Christ went through will be the Church's (His Body) path also. This is not just some theological mambo jumbo. This is what we believe, we who all ride in this boat together that is the Mystical Body of Christ. Arguments in the boat are sometimes necessary (and some in history have even come to blows) but seperation from the boat is death due to pride and needs serious examination of conscience. If anyone reading this is even contemplating separating themselves from Peter, I beg and pray for you dear Brother or Sister in Christ to reconsider. If you have already (in mind or action) separated yourself from Peter, I ask you (as one of Christ's servants) to please seek out reconciliation as soon as possible, for the sake of your soul and those of the loved ones to whom you influence. Think of this, who did more good: Martin Luther (a Catholic Priest) who felt he had many good points of grievance against the Church: OR those who formed and took part in the council of Trent that reformed and unified our Church. If anyone here disagrees with the Pontiff, pray for him to our Mother, fast for him, do penance for him, work in charity and deed in all that you do. This is the lesson of the Holy Family - Obidience, Love, and Unity no matter how crazy things get, we will all help each other to get there together with and in our Christ. Peace Brothers and Sisters, Ed +
He’s still the Pope until...... no one can remove a sitting Pope. I really don’t think so. Maybe Ed can speak to this.
How can Catholics continue to be in communion with a man (seemingly) occupying the See of Peter, who is publicly committing sin against the First Commandment? This makes no sense at all. As St Paul says in Gal 1:8, Even if we, or an angel preaches another doctrine, let him be anathema. That man occupying the See of Peter has apostatised. He is not Catholic. +
I think thst Ed has explained everything completely and fully about all aspects. I think his explanation is canonically correct. Maybe we all need to keep revisiting his words. maybe we can hopefully put a period on this
Ed, Than you for taking the time to write this wonderful, timely and very important post. May God bless you always! +
Amen, brother. We are all being tested. I pray that we all keep trusting God and pray with all our hearts that His Holy Will be done.
My understanding is that He is still Pope Canonically. It is a legal statement of fact. Only a legitimate church authority can remove him, however I can't see how that would happen. All I think we can do is to live out to the full our Catholic Faith, defend the truth while remaining in union with Him as Pope.
