God bless you too Jane, I didn't see it as bickering either to be honest, but a discussion whereby we are all passionate in what we think/ feel. God is our Passion, so we are going to be like this. I still don't get the feet thing though to be honest, to me that is a bit nuts, same as someone saying my little pony (a child's toy) has had a curse on it and is evil. To me whether Our Blessed Mother's feet are shown or not is irrelevant. I have certainly never heard this and sounds like an old wives tale to me. We fight three things. The world, (spirit of the world.. man's pride and looking out for himself and the attitude of those in the world. The Flesh (Our own weaknesses) and The Devil.. So sometimes, even if someone does try to fool people with apparations etc, it isn't always because they are being tricked by the devil or are in a pact with him. Some feel the need to be adored/loved by others, and this is their way, they desire this so much that their imagination goes off on a tangent. I know this is an awful example, but it is like those who go on X factor who really can't sing and they don't have a clue! They need their egos rubbed, they need to dream, they need to feel good about themselves, and they dream of a better life. Then there are those who do it simply for the money. There are also those who do it to lead people away from the Catholic Faith, and to cause confusion. This is where the devil comes into play. Does the above make sense? Jane, I think you are a lovely person, and you really are trying to protect everyone according to your convictions. But each must be left to discern for his or herself. I can't answer for all the messages, that one about dropping the baby doesn't make sense I have to admit, but there is so much on the internet now, there are also detractors some of whom have very questionable reputations. We are very fortunate that we have our holy pope to protect us. All the evidence will be looked at, everything, there will be a thorough investigation, same as when they decide if someone can be declared a saint. \we are so fortunate, in that we are protected. Until that time, we are permitted to listen as long as they are not contrary to our faith. The good news is that even if one is converted through messages of a false mystic or seer they will still find their own path through prayer, God is very merciful and is not going to hold back from a soul because they were duped. God would reach out in His mercy even more to that soul who has been trying to seek him earnestly. Bearing that in mind, if Garabandal or Medjugorje were declared false, of course there would be a time of shock, disbelief and it would shock us to know that we could be duped like that. But, the one thing we all have in common here is our love for God (Blessed Trinity) our love for Our Blessed Mother and our love for our Roman Catholic Church. That love for our Church and our pope would see us through as we are all called to obedience. And I am pretty sure from the posts I have seen thus far, everyone here will let God have the last word, through His Vicar on Earth. God bless you too Jane, x
One thing that really bothers me about MDM is her/him being anonymous. No one is able to look at her life and see if she is living obedient to the Church. If she were truly following a director from the Church, I would think her messages would be prohibited to be published at least until more time goes by, as these kinds of messages usually are by the Church if they are not outright condemned. SO, my point is, I am much more apt to believe in seers that are exposed out there, being watched by the public and the Church, and trying to live holy lives than someone that nobody-knows-who is giving messages and not having to be at all accountable for them. I cannot believe one will be condemned for believing in a false seer, unless they commit sin, and/or are disobedient to the Church, but when one is basing their whole faith on what a human says, whether it's Martin Luther, or Maria Divine Mercy, then one is in great danger of following right into hell. Much better to listen, discern, and retain what is good, throw out the bad, and in the end, be humble Catholics.
I know protestants use that line about all the aparitions of Mary are from satan, and use the line because you can't see her feet they say and the devil can't show his feet because they are hooved or something. They always say look at Fatima, the pictures of her in a cloud in the tree with her robe going down into the cloud and you can't see her feet, because it's the devil really. Look at the pictures of Our Lady of Guadalupe---no feet! There was a famous male saint, a doctor of the church, who once had a vision of Jesus and he immediately banished him as satan.{sorry, I can't remember his name} The devil reapeared as satan and asked him, how he knew it wasn't Jesus. He said there were no nail marks on his hands and feet and he knew it was satan, because you satan never suffered for an instant. You speak Jane, again of the vision Mirjana had of satan. From a transcript of a testimony of Mirjana to a group, a transcipt from a very trustworthy person who taped this testimony more than once, satan appeared to Mirjana, promising he would end her suffering, give her a wonderful husband and a wonderful life. Mirjana called out the Virgin Mary, who appeared and vanquished satan,{as she once vanquished demons that were frightening the children of fatima}, and said pardon, but this was a test that God wished to put her through.{paraphrasing here, as I don't have the transcript in front of me.} As for the tape of Viska, I see two different tapes right off, put together, what she is saying in the second tape I have no idea as I don't speak the language or even if it has any thing to do with the first part of the tape, it could be from something entirely different and she could be speaking of something entirely different. As for the first part,whether or not it was doctored with{not that anyone has ever done anything like that on the www }, I can't honestly make a judgement, but it could have been sliced together,I've seen films of people poking their fingers at their eyes in tapes like these and it could have been sliced together differently. But Padraig said something about that tape, I'm not sure where that comment is, about how people have different types of ecstasy, well he explained it better than I could. The girls at Garabandal certainly went in and out of ecstasy. You know once Viska and Jakov were once taken right out of his grandma's house by the Virgin Mary. The ceiling opened up and she took them right up into heaven. She walked with them and had regular feet. It is a grace given to believe or not, for some people no explanation is necessary and for others no explanation will ever suffice.
Having a test is in perfect keeping with Our Faith. The angels were tested in their free will. Satan failed miserably, he absolutely loved himself, took a third of the angels with him. Adam and Eve were tested.. they failed miserably too Mother Mary was tested, every day of her life, she had the choice to give life to her own will or to remain in the will of God.. Our beatiful Mother passed with flying colours.. We have this test too... we fail miserably, every time we do our own will . The test isn't actually in the trials that come our way. Often our trails are through those who live outside of God's will. The test is in whether we can remain in God's will in good times as well as bad. Some only want God's will in good times when it is easy and some only want God's will when they are having a tough time Then there are those who always want to do His will, albeit need a lot of grace as we all do Then there are those who absolutely don't want to do His will at all.. So the test on Mirjana was in keeping with scripture. Also, look how Abraham was tested with Isaac, but then look how he was blessed. It was only fitting and in keeping with scripture and how God tests that Mirjana should have this test too, a test of her will, a test of her faith, and a test as to whether she will opt out of God's plan and choose an easier path..
Hi Jose - Hopefully I can help you understand. First a little background. I was raised catholic and had a very stable and loving family, but we did not attend mass regularly, pray together, etc. Basically we only went to mass when we had a ccd class. So although I received all the required sacraments through high school, religion was not a big deal at home. I went to a catholic college, but didn't go there because it was catholic...it was just where I wanted to go. I actually went to mass quite regularly once I got to college since it fit my schedule (10pm on Sunday night) and it was social. By senior year I did go on a weekend retreat that I still remember and I had a very good lent. So I do believe that some seeds were planted during my college years, which would be later watered by Medj. But despite this I pretty much had the "typical" college social experience...and that same type of social experience continued after college into my 20's. I also stopped going to mass right after college, as now it is on Sunday morning not 10pm and homilies are no longer geared toward my age group. I knew I was living a sinful life and it was not pleasing to God. And I remember having a conversation with God that I knew He didn't like my life...but you are only young once so therefore I wanted to have a fun time and I would change it when I got older. I justified I wouldn't kill anyone or do anything that bad, therefore if I died I would be in purgatory and not hell and that was fine with me. So I was living on the wide path of the secular world. Going to mass on Sunday was the last thing on my mind. In fact, one Sunday I went to the supermarket in the afternoon only to find it closed. I scratched my head and asked someone why it was closed so early and they said “because it is Easter Sunday”. I responded "it is?"...and then I actually got annoyed thinking...well why isn't it open for people who don't celebrate Easter? So you get the picture...my career was taking off, had my own place in the city, I was making money, I was going out during the week with my friends, heading north on weekends in the winter where I had a share in a ski house...and I was doing what I needed to do to avoid hell and make it to purgatory. I thought purgatory would be a great landing spot for me. So, when you question: Why did you need Medjugorge for you conversion if those "stones" have been preached by different religious orders and institutions of the Church and the Church itself since centuries? Well...first you need to go to church to hear the stones being preached. I had not been to church since college. And even when I went...I can't recall even today the word rosary ever being said or fasting, or offering your pain up...or anything like that. It might have been said and I wasn't listening or it didn't stick with me. I don't know. But regardless, I wasn't going to church so I wasn't going to hear the call to convert. I know it's a real simple answer...but given the life I was living...other than a wedding or a funeral…why in the world would I have gone to church? That was not the path I was on. It simply would not have happened. So I heard of Medj in my mid-20’s or so. I was pretty fascinated by it and especially the secrets. Initially I just read about it a lot…all the books I could get my hands on…and this word conversion kept coming up…as it was what Our Lady wanted us to do there. I kind of knew what it meant, but looked it up in the dictionary just to be sure…and I’m like…that would mean I would have to change my life…don’t think I want to do that! But the thought of the secrets in the future and by now I was really recognizing how sinful my life was and I read more about purgatory and realized that’s not a good landing spot for me and I hadn’t been to confession in 10 sinful years. I also came to the realization that I really believed in the Medj messages, apparition, and upcoming secrets…so if I believed and didn’t convert/do as mother Mary was asking me to do, then I would be held accountable. So I decided I have to convert…how do I do that? So that’s when I focused on the 5 stones. Despite them being building blocks of the faith…I had never known anyone who fasted on bread and water and never would have thought to do so on my own…I didn’t know how to say the rosary…I had NO idea what adoration was…Medj taught me all this. And believe me, when I went to confession for the first time in 10 years…I was very scared to go…and the only thing that got me to walk into the confessional booth was the thought that Mother Mary of Medj is asking us to convert so I must do this!! Of course now I pray and go to adoration etc. because I have fallen in love with Jesus and the catholic faith…but initially it was because Our Lady of Medj was asking me to respond to her call and I was trying to give her my “yes”. So, that was a real long response when all I really needed to say was that only Medj was going to get my attention to get off that wide path. Yes, there is nothing new at Medj, but I guess I never learned my faith properly and I was lost in a secular world…so I had to re-learn it. And Medj is what taught me again. I also did go on a pilgrimage there 6 or 7 years ago when I was at a spiritual crisis and the grace I received there was the grace of forgiveness…which I really, really needed. But I won’t go on anymore Jose, because you have already stated you don’t consider the fruit of conversion as part of your discernment process! But I hope this answers your question. So there should be no aching hearts for me because I have been awoken from my spiritual slumber and traversed from the wide path to the narrow, against the grain, sometimes painful path of conversion…led the whole time by Our Lady of Medj! We need to save those aching hearts (and prayers) for those still on the wide path of secular life.
I'm glad you didn't see we were bickering either. I was starting to think it was just me. Jesus said to Brother Stanley. "you can not change the person, only God can change the person. We can only pray for the person and let God do the rest." This I believe. But first you have to let the person know, then it is up to them. But people are still confused, I thought I made it clear, maybe it's because there is too much information. The ones I really worry about are the ones who have closed their hearts and minds. They don't want to see if there is any fact in what I have said.
I agree in everything you just said. Even where one would not be condemned for believing in a false seer. People will say here, I said differently before, and I did, but it was misunderstood. I'll try and explain it better later. Sadly, there are such people who base their faith on what the seers say.
Thankyou for your reply. You know when I raised the question some time ago, no one gave me an explaination about the Satan can't hide his feet. So I had to leave it as it must be true. So on this subject (as I am no expert) we have you saying one thing and others saying another. I don't know about Our Lady's feet in Fatima or Guadalupe. So I will give your explaination the benefit of the doubt. But you know, I didn't change my mind because I couldn't see Mary's feet. The vision of satan with Mirjana. So we have more conflicting stories. You're saying one thing, others saying differently. This doesn't help when looking for truths. The tape where the finger is nearly poked in the seers face. I can believe they can come in and out of ecstasy. But it doesn't look like that at all. I think you're right, Padraig did have an explaination for this, I actually didn't buy it (sorry). But even if I did see Padraig's point of view on the flinch. The thing that really bothered me, was the lie. "Mary was dropping the infant Jesus." This was recorded, there is no escaping this proof. The money is the big killer for me. And of course the disobedience inside. Not forgetting 34 out of 35 Bishops wanted it condemned. The one Bishop who was in support is another story in itself. It doesn't please me to say this either. But I have only touch on the surface of the lies in Medjugorje. I don't need to bring up anymore as there is enough. I can only show the other side of the story which the offical books and internet sites don't tell you. People can and will make up their own minds. I am very afraid that there are too many people who will not open their hearts and minds. If you missed why I am so fearful of what is to come, I will explain it soon. I need a break from this computor for a bit. God can only change people. I can't. I can only pray. God Bless you Patrice. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
Judging an apparition through the visibility of the feet is somewhat amusing but to me it sounds more like popular superstition than a solid, valid criterion. Anyway, concerning Fátima it does not stand. Although, as the protestants say, most pictures of the Virgin don’t depict Her feet, this issue was alluded in the first interrogatories of three shepherds made in 1917 by Cónego Formigão. This priest was the most prominent studious of Fátima as they occurred and in the beginning he doubted the apparitions were true. Jacinta after describing to him that Our Lady had a dress and a mantle that covered Her “almost to the feet”, was questioned by Conigo Formigão if the apparition was wearing shoes or boots, the little girl responded that she was not wearing shoes or boots but the feet were so white that almost seemed the apparition was wearing (white) socks 1. Now remember to read this in its proper context. This was a (then) skeptic priest trying to find contradictions in the testimonies. And the question was not innocent, the priest (probably) wanted, through an indirect approach, to see if the children had seen the feet of the apparition. 1Visconde de Montelo, Padre Manuel Nunes Formigão. Fátima. Os primeiros Escritos (1917-1923). Alêtheia Editores. Lisboa, Portugal.
The past couple of weeks we have seen stong arguements to why Medjugorje isn't authentic, and we have heard some wonderful conversions because Medjugorje. Before I bring up another subject. We can all agree to disagree with me. But if I can stress "Be careful" I feel there is a possibility that one day you will be told "It isn't nessasary to say the rosary, just have it in your hands." Remember 1997 was the last time is was said to say the Rosary, I wonder what it is leading to. I can hear people saying now "oh if that ever happened, I would simply walk away." Well I don't think you will. It said on the thread "Medjugorje true or false" The vatican has ruled over the local Bishop regarding Medj, apparently he is too bias. Maybe because he is 100% convinced it is not of a Divine sourse? Apparently this is very unusual to not listen to the Bishop. My question is. Who in the Vatican is behind this? I'm sorry, but I just can't understand with all the information given on this thread and 'Medjugorje true or false' thread, people aren't moved. But I will accept for some reason or other you can't be moved. My prayers will continue for you all to see the truth. One way or another. May God give you all the gifts of The Holy Spirit. Jane. xx
Jane, we all received the gifts of The Holy Spirit at our confirmation, and the more one prays with the heart and lives the prayer, the more we grow in those gifts.
Can we get over the myth that 1997 was last time our Lady said to pray the Rosary. Here is one from 2001. April 25, 2001 "Dear children! Also today, I call you to prayer. Little children, prayer works miracles. When you are tired and sick and you do not know the meaning of your life, take the Rosary and pray; pray until prayer becomes for you a joyful meeting with your Savior. I am with you, little children, and I intercede and pray for you. Thank you for having responded to my call."
I think this is a wonderful thread. I loved reading the different points of view. Either side could be correct. Reading along, it struck me that had the internet been about when Lourdes or Fatima were being discussed, the arguments would have been the same. We will have to wait until the Church rules on on-going apparitions. I still think though that by their fruits they will be known. Any apparition that stresses the Rosary, Mass, Prayer and Fasting (the 5 stones) cannot be all bad. In the event that Medj. is not held to be valid, I still think anyone who has practised the five stones has advanced along the path to God.
How many of you "take the Rosary and pray"? I do often. But I am not always praying the Rosary. I was going to let this go but after sleeping on it. I don't like to sound as if I lied about something. And I didn't. So it is no myth. The last time the 'alleged' Mary of Medjugorje said to "say or pray the Rosary" was in fact Aug 1997. Yes I know people pray the Rosary in Medj. I have been there. But I do say. I wonder. Will the day come where the Alleged Mary of Medjugorje will tell the people there is no need to pray the Rosary, just keep them in your hand.
Thankyou FoundSoul for enjoying this thread. I started it because of all the prophecies being spoken about, and it was confusing me, because they were spoken of as it they were true. But in fact some had been condemned. To tell you the truth I am not enjoying it at all at the moment. I was until we got on to Medj. I had no idea people's hearts would be set in concrete. You say either side could be correct. As an arguement goes, possibly true. I see the good fruits just as much as everyone else. But I can also see so many Bad fruits. This is a HUGE worry. Satan will of course tell many truths. How else will he reel in His followers? He is in his last days, and he is as clever as can be. So let's get the faithful and mention the Rosary (even if it has only been mentioned a handful of times in the past 15 years). Mention mass prayer and fasting. Sounds so wonderful. It will grab the faithful. AND IT HAS! He must laugh. Because the faithful ignore or make excuses for all the bad fruits. (HIS MISTAKES) So with the alleged Mary saying 'All religions are equal" (and sorry if I haven't quoted that pefectly) This is leading to the "one religion." 2nd Aug 2012 "may your mouth refrain from every judgement" How convenient is that? My father always said to me "MONEY IS THE ROOT TO ALL EVIL" In the history since Jesus, has there ever been a true prophet or seer or saint become wealthy because of the grace of seeing Jesus or Mary? NO. Jesus says to get rid of all your riches and come follow me. Maybe He made an acception for seers at Medjugorje?????
“They will have the two-edged sword of the word of God in their mouths and the blood-stained standard of the Cross on their shoulders. They will carry the crucifix in their right hand and the rosary in their left, and the holy names of Jesus and Mary on their heart. The simplicity and self-sacrifice of Jesus will be reflected in their whole behaviour.” --Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, speaking of the great Saints of the end times Medjugorje Message, March 2, 2012 “Dear children; Through the immeasurable love of God I am coming among you and I am persistently calling you into the arms of my Son. With a motherly heart I am imploring you, my children, but I am also repeatedly warning you, that concern for those who have not come to know my Son be in the first place for you. Do not permit that by looking at you and your life, they are not overcome by a desire to come to know Him. Pray to the Holy Spirit for my Son to be impressed within you. Pray that you can be apostles of the divine light in this time of darkness and hopelessness. This is a time of your trial. With a rosary in hand and love in the heart set out with me. I am leading you towards Easter in my Son. Pray for those whom my Son has chosen that they can always live through Him and in Him – the High Priest. Thank you. ” The rosary is a weapon, and so is the prayer to God and fasting, all these are food for the spirit, fruit from heaven. We have all read the bible, we understand how the holy spirit communicates with us the soul, lets don't underestimate the wisdom and attentiveness of our soul in regards to the holy spirit. Above messages speak of the importance of praying the rosary with a pure heart. Blessings!
No one is accusing you of lying. This is really about semantics. We could argue until we are blue in the face but when our Lady says 'take the Rosary and pray', the majority of people would assume she means to take the Rosary beads and pray.
Yes, The Love of Money is the Root of All Evil. Perhaps you have left family, all money and every thing behind to follow Christ, but most of us are to follow Christ right where we are. I don't have access to the bank accounts of the seers from Garabandal or Medjugorje and I don't care that Conchita has a place in Fatima and a home on Long Island. As for Ivan owning an expensive hotel in Medj. and raking in millions from it is absolutely false. His father has a panavision which he runs and works hard at it is the truth. People who have stayed there are always touched by the fact of Ivan and his wife humbly serving them their meals when he is there during the summer months. He certainly doesn't travel in a private jet, but just as you or I would, commercially. The fancy car rumor came from the fact of the BMW{I think that was the type of car, but I can't tell one car from another} he had, which he got, as the other veterans of the war over there got with a huge discount after their dischage after the war. His house in eastern Ma. goes for the same price as my house in eastern Ma., yes half a Million, regular family homes, they're hugely over priced right here. {I'd love to get rid of mine--any takers? PLEASE???} The people of Medj. have always taken in people into their homes due to the fact that their parish always celebrated the holydays and people from the other villages came ther to celebrate them there. Mirjana has a panavision now, after living for nearly thirty years in the basement of her house with her family while people stayed in the upper part of the house, again people were always touched to see her doing the cooking and work and waiting on people. Ivan spends the rest of the year travelling tiressly for Our Lady, without charging a fee, only stopping when he has been hospitalised. And he always insists that he will only speak with the parish priest's permission. Our Lady of Medjugorje turned around a church that had mostly forgotten prayer, the bible, fasting, confession, and Eucharistic Adoration. We were'nt being taught this anymore. Through the fasting, prayers, and penance of people the world over conversions are coming. {Thank you, everyone for your fasting and prayers, I can never thank you enough for my conversion! I love you all!} I've never met anyone who followed the messages of Our Lady of Medjugorje, who hadn't developed a deep, profound love of Holy Mother Church and I know none would ever think of leaving it. It seems to be a great grace given from Our Mother. Time seems to be running out in this time of grace which Our Lady has given and we all just have to trust Our Lady and Our Dear Lord and our Holy Church. May God bless and strengthen us all.
