Jane I don't see you as a doubting Thomas either. Incidentally, I don't see him as one, he was actually the first saint to experience the 'dark night of the soul' if you think about it. I have never heard of the feet thing to be honest. Although this is another 'seer' that has been approved by the Church. Yet, this too is completely different from apparitions/Divine Intervention etc that have taken place before. http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/akita.htm You know I have heard many things, of which I am very wary of. Some used to say my little pony was evil, and furby's were evil, and all pop music was evil. Some pop music is, others aren't. Yet, these don't sit down and pray the rosary with their children, and don't monitor what they watch on TV. I have heard a lot of strange things over the years, when I was younger I might of listened as these were people of prayer. They judge others etc, and don't see this as being an evil. Some live violent lives whilst saying that something else is evil. It is absolutely fine for you to test apparations etc, we are actually told to do that .. You are not testing Our Blessed Mother, but the 'seers'. 1 John 4:1 It is not every spirit, my dear people that you can trust; Test them to see if they come from God; there are many false prophets, now, in the world. It goes on to say every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ is Lord etc is a good spirit, well, anyone can lie, but lives lived out in faith truly show whether a person loves Jesus and acknowledges that He is indeed Lord. However, we must also remember that there are those with a hidden agenda. Some want the full return of the way things used to be before Vatican 2 and they will do all they can to discredit anything in order to say that they are right and we are wrong. People from other faiths and denominations want to discredit our faith otherwise it means our faith is right in which case theirs must be wrong. Many don't actually want to change, look at the pharisees and the leaders of the church in the days of Christ. Then there are the leaders of the World who actually want to do away with all faiths, anything that gives the peoples a sharp conscious as these are the ones that stand in the way of abortion, euthanasia, allowing people to die on the streets through hunger or homelessness. These are the very people who hold leaders accountable and they have a great influence on the people around them.
cont... 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Never try to suppress the Spirit, or treat the gift of prophesy with contempt; think before you do anything- hold on to what is good and avoid every kind of evil. This I think gives us a great responsibility of being open to God yet very careful too. It is ok if you don't want to talk about Medjugorje, it is ok if you don't read when people talk about Medjugorje. The Church hasn't approved this yet, and you are erring on the side of caution.. 'Fools rush in where angels fear to tread'. Personally, I do believe very much, and have had beautiful experiences there or although one would be right in saying that I was able to have those experiences as I was open through prayer and God would bless me for this regardless of the prophet/seer etc. I still think, that you are living the message of the Gospel, which is living out these messages, and one of the messages from Mother Mary or 'alleged' as you may prefer to call them was this.. I may not get the exact wording right but the message meant the same.. Don't waste time wondering if I am appearing here or not, just live the messages. The message was something like that, don't know the exact words but means the same. That is why I stated in an earlier post as long as one is living the messages of the Gospel, is devoted to Our Blessed Mother (as so many graces and lessons come through following her example and holding her hand in prayer) and goes to Mass as often as possible not just on a daily basis. Reads their gospels daily, prays and does their best to put all this into practice in the lives. As in living the prayer that they are saying.. If want forgiveness be forgiveness, if want peace be peace, if you want the world to be beautiful, do your utmost to be beautiful in the sight of God. If we are doing all this, Mother Mary is indeed very pleased. By virtue of our baptism, and living out our faith God can do so much and can bring so many graces to the Earth etc.. Look at Moses, God just wanted one good man..
I have just woken from a restless night sleep. When I got to bed, I had a thought. Thoughout history, when things are going bad, we look for someone to direct us. When the Church looks gone and the Pope has fled. Who will the faithful look to? Medjugorje! The faithful will listen to where it is said The Mother of God is appearing. Noones been able to tell me that it is just a 'myth' about Satan not being able to disguise his feet. Let's not forget how one of the female seers (can't think of her name). During an apparition, a second 'Mary' appeared as the other 'Mary' changed to Satan. Then the second Mary said (probably the true Mary) "Satan can disguise himself in many ways". I have got a real concern for the faithful in these end times.
How can this be explained? This too is a serious problem. Especially where there seemed to be a bit of a panic with an excuss of "The Blessed Virgin was dropping the baby Jesus" And if Our Lady was dropping Jesus, why didn't the seer move forward with her arms out to catch Him?
Ice cream on Friday? Seriously? How petty.u r to fast from ",something". Not necesarrily meat, ice cream etc. Where is charity? No one knows the circumstances. That is gossip. As for cars etc. Unless u r good friends with ivan,do not repeat so called "facts". Sounds like fidelity magazine gossip.
Many peope have a high opinon of me. They might have a less high opinion if they saw me with a few drinks in me yapping away. Many people have a low opnion of me. They might have a less low opinion of me if they saw me praying before the Blessed Sacrament. I don't know about references to personal lives. It makes me a little uneasy.
Hi Jane, that video also gave me pause for consideration. See the link for an earlier discussion about it. http://motheofgod.com/threads/vickas-flinch-her-explanation-makes-me-go-hmmm.2437/#post-15311
I'm glad. Always follow Church teaching before anything. I don't agree to judge anyone on whether they're fasting or not. But I think the point Jose was making, was it was disappointing to see Ivan eating an icecream on Friday just after preaching about fasting on a Friday, that's all. Regarding Ivan. Is it not fact that he owns 2 houses and one hotel? What matter of employment is/was he in to be able to do this? Is the answer through making money through apparitions? His hotel can earn him up to $32,000 in one week. Which is like about 49,000 Bosnian dollars. This is something I have checked first hand. This is fact! On top of this is the buckets of money going around after he does a talk. Yes. I know he has a family to support. But his hotel only has to be full for 2 weeks to recieve more money than my husband and I earn in a whole year. MS7. Don't you think something stinks here? You did post up about discernments early in this thread. It did mention about wealth being made. Someone said. He is giving the money to the Franciscan's. So is this ok? It's a bit like putting his own money back into his own investment. You said "Unless you are good friends with Ivan, do not repeat so called 'facts'". Now, I did not know Jesus or the Saints personally, so I had to listen to what people had to say. How else are we to know if something is good or not? MS7. How do you explain the above video that Aviso had posted? The seer's explaination is terrible. We can bury our heads in the sand and believe everything, and hope you're not following something evil. Or we can check it all out completely. If a person's mind is already made up, no matter what, that's their choice. For me personally, I'd prefer to listen to what everyone has to say, but by keeping an open mind. I pray that God will guide us to the trueth. God Bless.
I believe I am being honest, open minded and fair. I don't think I have spoken about anyones personal life. But if it's the way someone recieves their money, I am guilty. But is this wrong? Don't forget you did make a judgement on someones personal life recently who was on these forums. I am happy to be told if I have said something which is incorrect. In fact, I want to be told. I do not pretend to know everything. I know I don't. Aren't we all after the same thing?
Hi Rain, I didn't know this video was a discussion last year. This is the first time I saw it. There seems to be such a long list of worries regarding Medjugorje. It worries me with so many people not prepared to change thier minds, no matter what they see. What if it is Satan gathering the elect? The 2 Mary thing, and the feet thing is making this look like a possibility. Satan can tell lots of truths. To reel in the faithful, he knows he has to give messages that sound authentic. Satan is in his last battle to gather as many as possible. All the conversions could be in his plans. What about the things we are not hearing in the Medjugorje messages. The things that hurt Satan the most. 1. To say the Rosary, this has not been said in the messages since 1997. 2. Jesus' Mercy "The Warning" 3. Chastisement. 4. Divine Mercy chaplin. 5. Scapular 6. Prayer to St Michael. Every day, I now offer to the Holy sacrifice of the Mass for everyone on this forum. I ask God to show us the truth. So if that means for me, Aviso, Jose or anyone else, to believe Medjugorje is authentic. Well that's great.
I I am guilty of judging politicians I have to say the criticism of eating an icecream on a Friday really takes the biscuit for me! Are we Pharisees judging a man's every act? As far as I am aware eating an ice cream isn't a sin - and I bet it was a sweltering hot day - at least it proves he is human-. Our Lady [not Ivan] says we should fast Wednesday and Friday to what we are capable of - who knows maybe the icecream is all he had on that Friday. And to think that a priest of the Holy Catholic Church would go out of his way to post this on the internet - reminds me of a wee phrase in the Bible 'first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye'.
Jane. I have already addressed the first point on another thread - this is simply not true! The Rosary is at the heart of all that is good in Medjugorje [see below]. And the Holy Angels are always there in the apparitions. I believe the chastisement and warning are in the secrets which are very severe. The emphasis of the messages in Medjugorje is that this is still a time of Grace and conversion; a time of mercy and then comes judgement with the secrets. The coming of the Mother of God so often in these times is a Warning in itself to the world - she is the last bastion. http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorj...at-the-visionaries-say-about-the-secrets.html The messages resonate of the Gospel for me - when I read the messages below I am inspired! March 2, 2012 "Dear children; through the immeasurable love of God I am coming among you and I am persistently calling you into the arms of my Son. With a motherly heart I am imploring you, my children, but I am also repeatedly warning you, that concern for those who have not come to know my Son be in the first place for you. Do not permit that by looking at you and your life, they are not overcome by a desire to come to know Him. Pray to the Holy Spirit for my Son to be impressed within you. Pray that you can be apostles of the divine light in this time of darkness and hopelessness. This is a time of your trial. With a ROSARY in hand and love in the heart set out with me. I am leading you towards Easter in my Son. Pray for those whom my Son has chosen that they can always live through Him and in Him the High Priest. Thank you." 2007"Dear children, do not be of a hard heart towards the MERCY of God, which has been pouring out upon you for so much of your time. In this special time of prayer, permit me to transform your hearts that you may help me to have my Son ressurect in all hearts, and that my heart may triumph. Thank you."
Thanks, Jane. You really understood what I meant. With all my respects, I do not want to hurt anybody. I do not want to judge anybody but I have to discern. And the only way to do it is to look at what the seers are doing. If they are making profit of this... sorry.. I will not believe. Maybe bad for me, but I do not find other way to act, I cannot help it. And this is not only me thinking like that: the Catholic Church before approving this apparitions has to make sure that the people involved are not making money out of it. It is a fact that Ivan is doing so. Regarding the ice cream some of you did not understand the story. The priest said that he was very happy to be in Medjugorje but he was absolutely disappointed when he and some friends saw Ivan having an ice cream after preaching few hours before that the Virgins told us to fast on Friday. I know that it is not a sin to have an ice cream on Friday but why is this guy not doing what the Virgin told him to do?, why is he no doing what he is telling other people they should do? This is not a gossip, this helps a lot to discern. And that is why I posted this here. And I have to say I am a sinner, I am very aware of that and know I cannot judge other people. But, as I said, I do not do it because I do not care what Ivan is doing, but I care about what he says and I want to know if the whole story is true or not. For me, and looking at the amount of evidences it is not. Regards, Jose
Padraig, "you will know them by their fruits". Fruits are not only conversions Medjugorge, I already explain that they could be a social phenomena without the necessity of any apparition. Fruits are also the way the seers live. If the "player" is doing contrary to what we think should be logical if the Virgin would be appearing to him I will be very very skeptical. What should I believe what he is saying? So, I do think we should not only look at the "ball" (the messages) but also what the "player" is doing in order to discern. A completely different thing: Do you really believe all this stuff with the messages written with an special ink in a special kind of paper that the Virgin gave to some of the seers?To me it looks like a Harry Potter film, and sorry if some people think I am making fun, I am not, it is really weird. Does God or the Virgin really need to write secrets in a special type of paper that nobody is allowed to see or to test to communicate with humanity? For me everything looks very complicated and in any way similar to other approved apparitions. Regards, Jose
Have I spoken against any of the seers? I have questioned how one is recieving money, and I think this is fair enough. I have given money. Aren't I entitled to know why and where it is going? Be fair. Jose was just making a point, was not saying Ivan or any seer should be fasting. I'm sorry. This is true. I did go through all the messages, unless I missed one. I know the Rosary is a big thing in Medjugorje. But no message has said to "say the Rosary" since Aug 1997. That message this year only said to have the "Rosary in your hand." I'm only making an observation. It may not mean anything. I really will be glad when we have finished talking about this. But people are entitled to know about the bad fruits of Medjugorje too. Isn't this fair?
I tried writing a long past this morning and my computer froze; I am glad about this as it has given me more time to pray over this. I would say it is a question of kicking the ball rather than kicking the player. The ball, in this case being the messages and purported apparitions rather than the ball, the visionaries themselves. Reflecting this to talk about their finances is to , I believe infer criticism of the visioneries themselves. To kick the player so to speak... We had a case like this in Ireland not long ago. A purposted visionary I will call, 'Cathy', who I believed in very much. However in studying her messages I realised they were false and abandoned them . Not long after she was questioned by the police and the media picked up on it implying she owned many houses round the world for her own use. She herself said she had the houses for use as refuges for the tribulation. I am inclined to believe her in this. Though still I believe her visions to be false. In either case her reputation was shredded by the media kicking the ball so to speak. Another case occured on the forum a while back. A lady whom I will call, 'Norma', from the USA claimed she had the stigmta. After a long while reading her book and corresponding with her I concluded she had not and as gently as I could put her off the forum .But I reached and can reach no conclusion as to her moral charter. I kicked the ball, the phenomena and never made any judgement of her moral character. She seemed to be a very good person ; just very much mistaken. I think we must be very delicate about always how we view such things. For instance with President Obama. I am free as a Catholic to criticise his policies; but in charity I cannot kick the player himself by attacking him personally. Charity is all embracing it brooks no exceptions. I feel like a hypocrite in writing this as I breach charity many times every day, being something of an old gossip. But still it is a high ideal I reach for. As for the visonaries of Medugorje their messages reach back to 1981 so there is no shortage of material to kick the ball with. One is not ham strung by not kicking the players. There is more than enough rope to hang with ,if one can find rope there. One thing struck me on meeting Our Blessed Lady back in 1981. I was a very,very bad person. Evi in fact. But Our Lady never reproached me. But she gave me a sad look with her eyes that broke my heart. She could have said much; very much; but she choose to say nothing. Nothng at all. She simply showed me how to fix things. As I say I am the very worst offender in the world in this matter so I mean no reproach, but I do think there is a better path.
Whilst we are judging the visionaries and taking a bird's eye view of their lives, we also need to remember that many people are spoken about and things are said about them that are simply not true. We also need to remember that at the time these visionaries saw Our Blessed Mother their country was under communist rule and they could have been thrown into prison for this. They were petrified, they were actually arrested and still they held to the truth of what they saw. A priest even ended up in prison, a priest who had done his best to protect them. Let us look at the complete picture..
