The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    A forensic review in Lifesite News of Cardinal Ouellet's letter of attack upon Archbishop Vigano:

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/...-mccarricks-restrictions.-is-he-guilty-of-cov

    Perhaps the biggest giveaway is Ouellet's total refusal to deploy Archbishop Vigano's title, in contrast to his deference towards McCarrick, who he so addresses no less than four times. It seems we are to believe that these people have more respect for buggers than for those who seek the truth.

    This Cardinal deserves to get the wellie-boot. Of course, he'll be promoted.
     
  2. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    :p:D
     
  3. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    I love this article. May God bless Father James V. Schall. Thank you father for your honest testimony.

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    Father James V. Schall at his last lecture before retiring from teaching at Georgetown University in 2012. Berkley Center / Youtube screen grab
    Lisa Bourne | Fri Oct 12, 2018 | https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/9...-pope-francis-is-at-the-center-of-churchs-cur
    90-year-old philosopher priest: Pope Francis is at the center of Church’s current crisis
    catholic, crisis in the catholic church, doctrine, dogma, james schall, pope francis
    October 12, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – The biggest crisis in the Catholic Church right now is not whether bishops, cardinals or priests are sinners, a noted priest and author said. It is whether the Church will uphold its own teaching. And at the center of the crisis is Pope Francis.

    “The Church is being watched to see if it upholds the natural law in its own teachings and practices,” Jesuit Father James V. Schall said, “or whether it joins the world and thereby undermines its claim to consistency and truth of doctrine since its beginning.”

    Schall, former Georgetown University political science professor, began his October 8 column in Crisis Magazine by referring to the recent highly critical report on the Francis pontificate in the prominent German magazine, Der Spiegel.

    The magazine’s report criticized Pope Francis’s leadership of the Church and charged him with ignoring abuse survivors in Argentina. It had the subtitle, “The Greatest Crisis in the History of the Church.”

    Catholics have voiced anger and increasingly called for answers in the Church’s sexual abuse scandal after allegations surfaced beginning in June that former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick abused seminarians, young priests and at least one minor over decades.

    The McCarrick revelations were followed by the Pennsylvania grand jury report released in August detailing abuse by some 300 priests over 70 years in six dioceses there.

    Later in August, former papal nuncio to the U.S. Carlo Maria Viganò released testimony implicating Francis and other high-level prelates in covering for McCarrick. Viganò has been in hiding since.

    Francis initially stated he would not say “a word” about the allegations, and then proceeded to cryptically criticize an unspecified “Great Accuser” repeatedly in his Mass homilies.

    The McCarrick scandal has brought Francis’ handling of sex abuse under greater scrutiny.

    At the same time concerns persist over his leadership with regard to Church teaching on sexuality and marriage – owing to his apparent departure from the teachings of his predecessors, especially in the outcome of the Synod on the Family and its resultant exhortation Amoris Laetitia that has been used to allow Catholics living in objectively sinful situations to receive Holy Communion.

    Most people want to be fair to the pope and they also want to know the facts, said Schall, both in his handling of abuse in Argentina, and also with regard to the McCarrick case.

    “People are also puzzled by the pope’s refusal to answer what seem to be quite legitimate and straightforward questions about what he teaches,” he said. “Common sense would normally suggest that, if someone is not guilty, he would be anxious to state why, to clear the record, as it were. The pope’s silence, fairly or unfairly, suggests to most people of good will that something was covered up, something is not quite right.”

    Whether or not the saga broached by Der Spiegel actually constitutes the "greatest crisis" in Church history, Schall said, “it certainly is a crisis of major proportions that challenges the credibility of the Church on its own terms.”

    “Pope Bergoglio himself seems willing to talk about almost every subject but his own beliefs and record,” he said. “They seem most at issue. The crisis at this stage, whether we like it or not, is precisely about the present pope, what he believes and which decisions he made.”

    “It is not directly about whether Catholicism is objectively true or not,” he continued. “Rather it is a question of whether the Catholic Church, in its own testimony about itself, is consistent with its own teachings.”

    By suggesting that this crisis is the “greatest” in the Church’s history, Der Spiegel is taking the Church at its own word, wrote Schall.

    “It compares the Church’s own teachings with what is practiced or proposed by Pope Francis,” he said. “The implication is that the crisis is of the Church’s own making.”

    “It is not due to some barbarian invasion, a Masonic plot, or some other outside force imposing on it or threatening it,” said Schall. “It is being threatened by its own ministers not only for not living according to Christian moral standards but also in not teaching what is good.”

    The priest philosopher continued, “The irony, to be specific, is that disordered man-man sexual relations have become a civil “right” in many countries but the same relationship is a natural law aberration according to Church teaching.”

    “The world watches to see if the Church will join the world in approving these relations as “rights” in the public order and in the Church,” said Schall. “Or will it reject them?”

    It is reasonable to ask what the Church’s ‘greatest’ crisis would be, he wrote.

    “It would have something to do with pride, as in placing a human opinion over a divinely revealed or rational teaching,” stated the priest. “It would have to be an embracing of “this world,” spoken of in John’s Gospel as a world that rejects Christ’s coming and his Cross.”

    Scripture passages in 2 Timothy and Matthew 25 also signal that a serious crisis can flare up when “unworthy priests and prelates are found within the Church itself,” Father Schall said.

    He cited other examples, such as Francis himself often speaking of clericalism and Pharisees in the Church, Pope Paul VI’s speaking of the “smoke of Satan” in the Church, and Ezekiel and St. Augustine giving warnings that “unworthy shepherds might prevail among us.”

    “On the other hand, at least the papacy was supposed to have been a place where “the gates of hell” did not prevail,” said Schall. “Popes could be sinful in their personal lives but still would not teach false doctrine or approve immoral activities.”

    Therefore, he said, the “greatest crisis” of the Church, is not the discovery that clerics are themselves sinners.

    “Christ was sent not for the just but the unjust. He was sent to grant forgiveness to whoever asked for it,” the priest wrote. “But he also told us to stop sinning. Therefore, the fact that sinners populate the world and the Church, even after Christ established rules to live by, cannot surprise anyone.”

    Even those who do not think the “aberrations” some priests and bishops are accused of committing equate to sins or disorders recognize that “the Church is the last bastion of moral integrity as seen in its classical philosophic and religious form,” he said.

    And, he said, they also see that the serious troubles the Church itself is in are primarily due to its own actions.

    “We can say that the issue is not over whether the pope is a sinner, naïve, or weak, but whether he has approved teachings or moral behaviors that he is obliged to oppose,” said Father Schall. “If he has taken this step in some obviously authoritative way, then Der Spiegel will be proved right.”

    “A reversal of fundamental teaching at the highest levels of the Church would constitute the “greatest crisis” in Catholic history,” he said. “It is an act of faithfulness to respectfully hope Pope Francis clarifies his own teachings. It does not seem like too much to ask and many, including Der Spiegel, are asking it.”​

    ***
    P., I think that djmoforegon posted about the roof of this church collapsing here #6053 and she made a very interesting connection to one of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich's visions but I didn't realize that it was Cardinal Coccopalmiero's church until you stated this. I found the following from SpiritDaily about it https://spiritdaily.org/blog/news/mailbag-when-a-church-roof-in-rome-collapses , wow! TY.
     
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  4. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Thanks for the info Carol and the link and for both of the articles (y)
     
    AED, HeavenlyHosts and Carol55 like this.
  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Thank God for Father Schall. A Jesuit, too.

    When one even has a bishop declaring himself a republican in terms of the sovereignty of Christ (that Australian), one fears that we might be entering the Final Battle, God help us.
     
  6. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I'm just finishing a highly commendable book, 'Theistic Evolution-The Teilhardian Heresy', by Wolfgang Smith. Smith, a physicist, mathematician and philosopher is also a wholly orthodox Roman Catholic. In his book, he utterly demolishes Teilhard's nonsense, much as a lion would a lamb, but this is not his primary aim. While it is easy, theologically and scientifically to refute Teilhard's heresies, Smith's most important point is to demonstrate the damage done by them to a Church, many of whose members are woefully theologically ignorant and naively gullible to scientific misrepresantation; and that is to not even consider those wicked types who would knowingly make use of Teilhardian absurdity as an instrument to attack the Church and those whose beliefs might be weakly formed. I was particularly struck by Smith's excellent point that the secular material aspect of Teilhardianism, which effectively eliminates the supernatural and essentially implies that Man is, through the aid of technology, evolving into being God (he calls it the Omega Point), is much to blame for influencing the more worldly direction of recent Catholic preaching and service towards implementing the social gospel. The implication is that many in the Church with their socialistic and environmental thinking have embraced an aspiration towards a modern Babel, a worldly utopia instead of directing the Church and Her people towards the promised New Heaven and New Earth.

    It is imperative that the voice of the likes of Bishop Barron (quietly fighting a lonely battle for sanity in the 'yoof sin-od'), who is calling for a cathechesis to compare in intellectual quality with that provided in other subjects, such as science and secular history, not be ignored, because what seems to have happened is the development of an inferiority complex among those weak in the Faith, who simply roll over and surrender to the critique of the weakest atheistic argument, when dressed in quasi-scientific apparel. Hence, the tendency to fall for every insane sexual/racial/ecumenical theory, no matter how transient, that emerges from the zeitgeist and the enthusiasm for evolutionary and environmental hypotheses. They even embrace demonic movements that hide under the guise of pseudo-science and alternative health, such as yoga, reiki, mindfulness and so on. You could sell these people anything, as long as it isn't orthodox Truth.
     
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  7. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    I love the responses from several Catholics at the bottom of this article.

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    Pope Francis celebrating Mass at the Casa Santa Marta. Vatican Media
    Pope again condemns ‘rigid’ Christians along with people ‘paid to give bad news’
    By Dorothy Cummings McLean | https://www.lifesitenews.com/all/to...stians-along-with-people-paid-to-give-bad-new
    catholic, hypocrisy, pope francis, pope francis animosity, rigid, youth synod
    VATICAN CITY, October 16, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – Pope Francis had harsh words in his homily today for “rigid” Christians and, presumably, journalists who are “paid to give bad news” that “smears others.”

    In a scathing sermon against hypocrisy, Pope Francis declared that hypocrites are “capable of paying to kill or calumniate; as happens every day. It happens today: they are paid to give bad news, news that smears others.”

    Pope Francis has received much negative press attention of late, largely due to his handling of the ongoing clerical sexual abuse crisis and episcopal cover-up, as well as his handling of a recent allegation from Vatican whistleblower Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò that the pontiff knowingly promoted an American cleric guilty of sexual misconduct.

    The pontiff also took aim at “rigid” Christians” who present themselves as “perfect”:

    “Be careful around those who are rigid,” he said. “Be careful around Christians – be they laity, priests, bishops – who present themselves as so 'perfect,' rigid. Be careful. There’s no Spirit of God there. They lack the spirit of liberty. And let us be careful with ourselves, because this should lead us to consider our own life. Do I seek to look only at appearance, and not change my heart? Do I not open my heart to prayer, to the liberty of prayer, the liberty of almsgiving, the liberty of works of mercy?”

    The Pope’s words against rigid Christians come during the Youth Synod, where Church leaders from around the world are now meeting in Rome to ostensibly discuss “Young People, the Faith and Vocational Discernment.” But with the inclusion of the term “LGBTQ” in the working document, pro-family leaders raised the alarm that the synod was being manipulated from within to promote positions contrary to authentic Catholic teaching. Small groups within the Youth Synod have already called for the Church to recognize “other forms of family” and to pay more attention to homosexuals and the “realities” they face, specifically mentioning “marriage,” surrogate pregnancy, and adoption.

    According to the Holy See’s own “Vatican News”, Pope Francis based his homily on today’s Gospel, in which Jesus goes to supper at a Pharisee’s home and his host is “amazed” when He does not perform the prescribed ritual washing.

    The pontiff contrasted the love of Jesus’ followers with the hatred of the “doctors of the Law” who tried to catch him in error and were shocked when he seemed to breach Mosaic law:

    “They were truly an example of formality. But they lacked life. They were, so to speak, “starched.” They were rigid. And Jesus knew their soul,” Francis said.

    “This scandalizes us, because they were scandalized by the things Jesus did when He forgave sins, when He healed on the Sabbath,” he continued.

    “They rent their garments: “Oh! What a scandal! This is not from God, because He should have done this” [instead]. The people didn’t matter to them: the Law mattered to them, the prescriptions, the rubrics.”

    Rubics, properly speaking, are the instructions for a priest’s actions during the Roman Catholic Mass. They are called “rubrics” because they printed in red ink; “ruber” is Latin for “red”. The spoken texts are in black. As a protest against a post-1965 tendency among Catholic priests to insert their own distracting innovations into the Mass, some tradition-minded Catholics have adopted the motto “Say the black, do the red.”

    In the Gospel story, Jesus contrasts the purification rituals of the Pharisees with their inner evil in no uncertain terms. Francis took special note of the insults employed.

    “They are not beautiful words, eh? Jesus spoke clearly. He was not a hypocrite. He spoke clearly,” the pontiff said.

    “And he said to them, ‘But why do you look at what is external? Look at what is within,’” Francis continued. “Another time He said to them, ‘You are whitened sepulchres.’ Nice compliment, eh? Beautiful on the outside, all perfect… all perfect… but within, full of rottenness, therefore of greed, of wickedness, He says. Jesus distinguishes between appearances and internal reality. These lords are ‘doctors of appearances’: always perfect, always. But within, what is there?”

    Pope Francis said that “rigidity” always betokens “grave problems”

    “But always, under or behind rigidity, there are problems, grave problems,” he declared. “We intend to have the appearance of being a good Christian; we intend to appear a certain way, we put make-up on our souls. However, Pope Francis said, behind these appearances, “there are problems. Jesus is not there. The spirit of the world is there.”

    Pope Francis has condemned “rigid” Christians before, numbering among them young people who love the traditional Latin Mass, and is so well-known for his harsh and colorful insults that early in his pontificate he inspired an online compilation called “Pope Francis’ Little Book of Insults”.

    Several Catholics took to Twitter to respond to Pope Francis’s homily.

    “Oh, dear. I hope there's enough straw left on earth for so many straw men,” tweeted Catholic media host Patrick Coffin.

    Steven Lane indicated that some people close to Francis might find Saint Ignatius of Antioch rather rigid:

    “St. Ignatius of Antioch's rigidity:,” he tweeted, “‘For some are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practice things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs who bite secretly.’”

    Lane also observed that St. Paul might be considered “rigid.”

    Blogger Laurence England stated that Cardinal McCarrick was the “very opposite of rigid”

    “+McCarrick was the very opposite of rigid,” he tweeted. Any problems there? Might a bit of the old religious rigidity known as 'self-denial', especially in the area of his passions, have helped a little? +McCarrick let it all hang out. Now victims and many souls pay the price!”

    Beverly Stevens, the editor of Regina Magazine, told LifeSiteNews that she did not know what Pope Francis’ means by “rigid” but that she sees a pattern in the pontiff’s homilies.

    “I have noted a correlation between his broadsides and negative media reports appearing,” she said. “The last days of the Nixon White House come to mind.”​
     
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  8. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

    Interesting: Visionnair Myrna de Soufanieh visiting the Pope....

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  9. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    It's not easy going lately, that is for sure but here is some advice from our good friend Msgr. Charles Pope.

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    (Pixabay/CC0)
    Blogs | Oct. 8, 2018
    There are Hopeful Signs from Rome, But Stay Vigilant
    Yes, stay angry at sin and corruption — but let your anger take the form of holy perseverance, not unholy bitterness.
    Msgr. Charles Pope | http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/there-are-hopeful-signs-from-rome-but-stay-vigilant
    I wrote most of this post before the open letter of Cardinal Ouellet was released. I will leave extended commentary on that letter to others for now, except to say that whatever scolding the cardinal issued to Archbishop Viganò, he does confirm a central claim made by the archbishop — namely, that allegations about Cardinal McCarrick were known well before June of this year and resulted in some sort of censure, even if informal. And this helps to confirm my main thesis here: that in these difficult days, many are compelled to speak out and express rightful anger. And, though these methods have become regretfully necessary, they are effective and must continue if reforms are to happen.

    Even before Cardinal Ouellet’s letter, a communique from Rome dated Oct. 6 shows hope that the Holy See is increasingly aware of the seriousness of the breach of trust demonstrated by the clerical sexual abuse scandal and its alleged cover-up. Here are some key passages:

    After the publication of the accusations regarding the conduct of Archbishop Theodore Edgar McCarrick, the Holy Father Pope Francis, aware of and concerned by the confusion that these accusations are causing in the conscience of the faithful, has established that the following be communicated:

    … The Holy Father ordered a thorough preliminary investigation … which was carried out by the Archdiocese of New York, at the conclusion of which the relative documentation was forwarded to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. …

    Moreover … the Holy Father has decided that information gathered during the preliminary investigation be combined with a further thorough study of the entire documentation present in the Archives of the Dicasteries and Offices of the Holy See regarding the former Cardinal McCarrick, in order to ascertain all the relevant facts, to place them in their historical context and to evaluate them objectively.

    The Holy See is conscious that, from the examination of the facts and of the circumstances, it may emerge that choices were taken that would not be consonant with a contemporary approach to such issues. However, as Pope Francis has said: “We will follow the path of truth wherever it may lead” (Philadelphia, Sept. 27 2015). Both abuse and its cover-up can no longer be tolerated and a different treatment for Bishops who have committed or covered up abuse, in fact represents a form of clericalism that is no longer acceptable.

    … As previously made known, the Holy Father has convened a meeting of the Presidents of the Bishops’ Conferences from around the world for next February, while the words of his recent Letter to the People of God still resonate: “The only way that we have to respond to this evil that has darkened so many lives is to experience it as a task regarding all of us as the People of God … ” (Aug. 20, 2018).
    ​
    This communique exhibits a great improvement in the demeanor of the Holy See and the Pope. Up until this time, Pope Francis has brusquely refused to address the allegations that Archbishop McCarrick’s offenses were long known up to the highest levels in Rome. Those who viewed the allegations as credible and worthy of further investigation or who expressed concern over them were greeted with an announced policy of silence at best, and at worst were implicated by the Pope in his sermons as scandalmongers in league with the Great Accuser. This most recent communication, though, seems to accept the need for a thorough examination of documents in relevant dicasteries and congregations and of following the truth wherever it leads, even if such an investigation demonstrates poor decisions not in keeping with “a contemporary approach.”

    This is great progress if the stated approach is in fact followed. However, we need to realize that this change in tone and policy is the fruit of active insistence by God’s faithful. Laity and clergy together must persist in this approach if the investigation is to be sufficiently thorough and true reforms are to be forthcoming. The communique itself states as much: “The only way that we have to respond to this evil … is to experience it as a task regarding all of us as the People of God… ” (Aug. 20, 2018).

    So stay angry, my friends. Stay angry at sin, at cover-ups, and at different standards for the powerful and those at the top. Yes, stay angry.

    Anger is an unruly passion, though, so be careful. Do not misdirect it to imprudent ends. Our anger is to be focused on opposing sin, the approval of sin, and any ambiguity that winks at sin. Scripture says, He who winks at a fault causes trouble, but one who frankly reproves promotes peace (Proverbs 10:10). Therefore, we may never make light of sin, but should direct our indignation against it and any approval of it. Our anger is to be channeled into reproof so as to promote peace, the well-being of all, and the repentance of sinners. Yes, may our heart’s truest desire be the purification of the Church and the conversion of sinners—including ourselves.

    Persistence has gotten us this far, but we must not allow a mere statement to lull us into inaction in the future. It is action we must seek, not mere words.

    Edward Pentin of the National Catholic Register reports:

    Sources have confirmed to the Register that the Pope is to meet privately on Monday with Cardinal Daniel DiNardo and Archbishop Jose Gomez, president and vice-president of the U.S. bishops’ conference.
    ​
    Continue to pray for the many bishops who in stages and in ranks are insisting on what is right. We ought to affirm every sign of courage and progress and assure them of our prayers and support. We must also be prepared to hold them accountable for doing what is right.

    Somewhere in this sad situation there is a potential good: God’s people are setting aside an unhealthy deference to authority and taking up their rightful role as members of the Body of Christ. We must never reject the divine constitution of the Church, wherein the Lord has set forth the Church as hierarchal, but the Church is head and members together not merely a head (or a hierarchy) all by itself. It is the obligation of all the members of the Body of Christ to ensure the proper functioning of the Church, both as those who receive direction from the head and as those who send important and urgent information to the head.

    Even in our own individual lives, the members of our body must sometimes say to our proud head, “Slow down and rest,” “Eat less,” “Watch out for that temptation,” “Don’t touch that hot stove,” or “Pay attention!”

    Yes, the body is head and members together. This is no less the case for the Church.

    Stay strong, persistent, faithful and properly angry, fellow Catholics. Although it is a step in the right direction, one communique cannot solve this mess. Affirm it, but continue to demand action. Insist that that the communique be a true path forward both to the November meeting of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) and the February meeting of Presidents of the Bishops’ Conferences called by the Pope.

    Like many of you, I feel awkward in this new role of loyal agitator. It should not be this way, but it has become necessary in a pontificate of weaponized ambiguity and often stubborn refusal to listen. The step forward represented by this communique has only occurred because we have refused to remain silent and have respectfully demanded accountability and a just investigation.

    Yes, stay properly angry. This is going to be a marathon, not a sprint. Pace and long-term determination are going to be critical. [emphasis added]​
     
    Don_D likes this.
  10. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

  11. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

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  12. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

  13. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

    I don't know. We will find out I suppose, one day.
    One holy priest told me: we should not criticize the Pope but instead pray for him (like Our Holy Mother would do...)
     
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  14. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Galatians 1:8
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
     
  15. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

    But I do not have the impression yet that the Pope preaches a Gospel different from the one that has been preached to us. When Holy Sacrifice will be removed or replaced by something else, then we KNOW. But this is the endless discussion in this forum and that is the Trap.... thank you, I pass.
     
  16. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I have found it sprritually helpful lately to kinda switch off Pope Francis and Vatican goings on. It helps bring me peace because I find it all too upsetting. I tune in from time to time.

    Others may find the same for it is only going to get worse. Much, much worse. I pray to God for it all to get better, but I do find it helpful not to focus too much on it all.

    It's a bit like my dogs when tehy get fleas. I send away for tablets and wait for them coming. I have done what I can.
    But staring at the poor dogs and gritting my teeth doesn't help them or me.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  17. padraig

    padraig Powers

  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

    More weird, weird, weird, derring do from Pope Francis's very global network of Homosexual 'Friends'.

    Very, very high ranking Cardinals indeed. They don't get any higher.

    But, hey, 'Who am I to Judge'?

     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  19. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Does Pope Francis have any 'friends' that are not homosexual?
     
  20. AED

    AED Powers

    A question worth asking.:mad:
     
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