Carol, We seem to be on 2 completely different trajectories. I was referring to the bad changes due to Vatican II, i.e the rotten fruits of Vatican II. But that is not what you are talking about. I cannot see your examples as being the fruits of Vatican II.
About Pope Paul VI, Our Blessed Mother speaks about him to Fr. Gobbi: "With me, you have also spent these moments of sorrow which the Church is going through because of the death of its supreme pastor, the Vicar of my Son Jesus, Pope Paul VI. He was, in truth, a great gift made by the Heart of Jesus to the Church. His mission has been accomplished." MMP #159 "Recite often the profession of faith composed by the first of my beloved sons, Pope Paul VI, now up hee with me, as he foresaw theses difficult moments." MMP #340
I am really puzzled by your statement that I am back at this topic when you are the one who brought it up and posted the link. Another puzzling statement. What about the following? - Cardinal Sarah has openly said that there have been devastating changes in the liturgy as a result of Vatican II, and - we have enough testimony and evidence that communists infiltrated the Catholic Church, and - Fr Amorth himself said that Satan rules at the Vatican, and - in the most recent article by Fr Heilman, https://www.romancatholicman.com/pr...&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork, he wrote: "Over this 50-year period, the Bishops continue to balk in the face of this “free reign of Satan” and, instead, by and large, rebuke priests for speaking up against these maladies (charged issues) in our culture. They seem to, collectively, be mainly concerned with “holding things together” … churches were to be “safe spaces” where nobody is offended. During these 50 years, priests who promote a restoration of the “sacred” (supernatural) are seen as the “problematic extremists” who are causing the division in our Church. - etc
Vatican 2 was accepted by God and Blessed by the Holy Spirit. The problem was its implementation. The world at that time was waiting for change. And because of Vatican 2... many took advantage of the moment and immediately started changing the church. Especially in the Western Church. That is where it went upside down. The Church allowed every individual pastor to do what they wanted...the church should have brought orderly change. Vatican 2 allowed 1. The mass to be held in every language. 2. The mass to be understood by ordinary people. 3. Ordinary people (if they go to mass daily) are able to hear the complete bible. 4. The laity to participate in mass. I could probably find more positive but I'm not very knowledgeable on all the changes. But maybe we needed this change... so that the Bible and the ONE TRUE GOD would be preached in EVERY language and culture. And with the changes and the internet...that has taken place. So, another prophecy has been fulfilled. Welcome Back Jesus! May Gods Will be Done
Sg, Maybe you need to reread the posts from the beginning of this discussion. #9137 This is my first reply to you, #9154 , in which I stated, "So you have made a very good point, many things have come after Vatican II both good and bad and thanks to Pope Benedict the Breviarium Romanum is in print again...". I stated this because when I read the article that you highlighted it did in fact contain both good and bad elements. Your response was, "Carol, I'm puzzled by the 'good' in that statement. Were you referring to Summorum Pontificum?" and then the discussion was off and running. Personally, I am trying to focus on the good that has and is occurring in the Church and not just the bad. That is the main difference between our trajectories, to use your terminology. I don't find it useful to just simply blame Vatican II for everything, we need to look for the good that is occurring in the Church and highlight it whenever we can. Peace to you.
Bless him, bless him. But he seems so much like the voice crying n the wilderness, 'Repent make straight the way of the Lord!' But where or where are the other Bishops. Why this lone voice buisness?
If we could be flies on the walls. The war/politics within the Church, at this moment, is huge. Everyone is taking sides quietly. Like everyday life...some are staying quite but all understand the great battle taking place. If Our Holy Father is listening to others...He is clueless to the real world. If it is His agenda...then he is gradually dividing the church. I personally don't think he understands the CHURCH.... is at a crossroads. He probably believes the church can wait out this crisis. If he continues in this direction... there will be a split. We will see the Church of the United States, The Church of Africa, The Church of England and so on and so on. Each creating rules that are culturally correct. Maybe its time for the great division. A smaller faithful church...is more powerful then a big non-spiritual church. I think it has all been prophesized and the Church is moving at full speed. May Gods Will be Done
But the examples of change you give were taken to extremes entirely unintended by the Council, as confirmed by its documents. The Mass was to remain mostly in Latin. I don't think there was any notion of extraordinary ministers or altar girls. Nor of the priest facing the people. The Eucharistic prayer most commonly used was hastily concocted in a Roman trattorium on the basis of a document since established to have been misinterpreted. We need to implement what the Council actually intended for the Mass. This has never been done. If it was we would be pleasantly surprised, I'd wager. Lots of Latin, reverent hymns, an ad orientem priest facing a high altar, altar rails, communion on the tongue. No shaking hands, jokes, and all the other detritus that has accumulated. People might start going to Mass again.
And no more loud conversation and laughing while within the church, disrespectful to our Lord and to those having conversations with him.
Agreed. Excessive focus on councils and theories takes our eyes off of what matters. Following Christ, and becoming more like Him. A lot of Good has happened post-Vatican II. There have been Saints, awesome authors, and the internet has been widely used to share the Truth. That is good! Many Holy and reverent people have either offered up or participated in the NO Mass. It could use more Latin imho, but is not invalid, and can be done well, and again, is about Christ. We have to look forwards, sg, not backwards. We are not in the 1940's or 1960's. We are here and now.
This is the prophesied division between Bishops and Cardinals. They have their own free wills and we have to pray for the wayward ones to get straightened out.....whether or not it seems even feasible at this point. Then again, Therese of Lisieux read of that murderer going to his execution soon and prayed for his last minute conversion.....which happened as he grabbed the cross to kiss just before the end...as an outward sign to her. Since my prayers are so piddly I grab hold of those great saints with much greater influence for intercession! As Mother Angelica said as she made decisions and prayed along with them....she had one foot in the air; the other on the ground and a queasy feeling in her stomach!!
I'm old enough to recall what the Church was like before Vatican II. I would make the following points: 1. When the Mass was said in Latin, I knew where I was at each stage in the Mass whatever country I was in. Now that international travel is so common, it seems more, and not less, necessary that we use a common language. It is not necessary to understand Latin, the repetition and school instruction meant that we understood what was being said (with the use of a Latin/English missal for a few months adult converts found that it all became familiar very quickly). Now, when abroad, I keep wondering where we are and have to observe the celebrant to decide. 2. The readings were always done in the local language, of course (foreigners were expected to have a Missal in their own language with them for the readings). 3. All the major religions had a sacred common language, Judaism - Hebrew, Islam - Arabic, and Catholicism - Latin, we and the Protestants seem to be the only ones that can't deal with a common sacred language, the Orthodox use archaic language forms that are not understood by many, as do the Copts. 4. It is true that only the altar servers responded and lay participation in the responses is useful, but I do that in Latin nowadays anyway at Latin Masses which still occur (Deo Gratias - now you understood that didn't you?) 5. Did these 'reforms' result in increased Mass attendance? The very opposite occurred and continues to occur. So the 'reforms' were massively counter-productive.
'Der Spiegel' the most widely read German news periodical has done a very unflattering piece on HH. It is notable that a previously very 'Francis friendly', liberal magazine has disclosed his failures with regard to abuse in Buenos Aires and the distrust, dislike and fear that he has engendered in some of the hierarchy. This is a major matter as the German Church is the financial 'milch cow' for the Vatican because of the substantial 'Church Tax' paid by all practicing German Catholics. Hot on the heels of the disclosure about widespread abuse in the German Church, this piece is bound to make membership, and so income, fall even more rapidly than it has historically. The Pope's 'world-friendly' image has taken a terrible knock and his effectiveness as a sympathetic front man for the 'progressive church' has been significantly damaged. Once the progressives start seeing him as an obstacle to their goals, rather than an asset, he is finished, he will be without support from any part of the Church and, if Archbishop Vigano had genuine cause to worry about his physical welfare, then so will HH because his support is, in a significant amount, from ruthless 'politicians' and deviants who care about sex, money, political influence and power, rather than their eternal fate. http://voxcantor.blogspot.com/2018/09/pope-francis-ice-cold-sly-machiavellian.html
As a catholic this shouldn't make me happy , but it does. Very,very happy. A sure sign how desperate I am to see the back of this awful man.
I cannot disagree. I don’t d sire any evil to befall him and I pray he is saved but I am hoping /praying that the Church will be rescued.
The 'reforms' were successful, because counter-production was the intention, I am beginning to think.
This is an interesting video but I am not sure that the clip of PBXVI being given the cold shoulder by the Cardinals of Germany is what it appears to be. I remember when this happened and I did a little research on this and others thought that PBXVI was merely introducing this man to the Cardinals and so would not have been being greeted by them. I think there is a plausible case for this because otherwise PBXVI would be in front and not leading this man to these others. If you pay attention PBXVI seems a bit distracted and I think this is because he is introducing each man by title as they approach them. Just another take on it. There is no doubt that he was despised by the secular world.
