China and Vatican to Sign Landmark Deal Over Bishops Under agreement, Beijing would recognize pope as head of China’s Catholics in return for Vatican recognition of excommunicated Chinese bishops China and the Vatican are set to sign a landmark agreement later this month ending a long struggle between Beijing’s Communist rulers and the pope over who chooses the leaders of Catholicism in the world’s most populous country, according to two people familiar with the matter. Reactions to the deal, which gives both sides a say in appointing the church’s bishops in China, are likely to be sharply divided, with some hailing a diplomatic coup by the Vatican that draws China closer to the West and others warning of an important defeat for the principle of religious freedom. The controversial deal would include the first official recognition by Beijing that the pope is the head of the Catholic Church in China. In return, Pope Francis would formally recognize seven excommunicated Chinese bishops who were appointed by the Communist government without Vatican approval. “It is a baby step by China toward recognizing some of the framework of the Western world,” said Francesco Sisci, an Italian who teaches international relations at China Renmin University in Beijing. “It doesn’t go as far as recognizing what we in the West call religious freedom but it is a degree of religious autonomy.” Others, including some U.S. diplomats, are concerned the pope is conceding a strong influence over church leadership to an avowedly atheist authoritarian regime. “This is a strange step backward on terrain over which the church has fought, not for centuries but millennia,” said Sandro Magister, a Vatican expert who writes for Italy’s L’Espresso magazine. “The church has managed to free itself from control of sovereigns and governments on ecclesiastical matters such as the naming of bishops, but now this achievement is clamorously contradicted by the agreement with China.” The pact with the Vatican could still fall through or be delayed due to unforeseen events, one of the people familiar with the matter said. The two sides are close to signing even though China’s government has recently intensified a crackdown on Christians and other religious groups, through measures including closing churches and removing religious symbols such as crosses and the domes of mosques. The deal is thus expected to stir criticism of the pope already under fire from within and outside the church for his handling of clerical sexual abuse. In practice, China’s Communist Party is unlikely to give up control over any religion, even Catholicism, which has relatively few adherents in China. Chinese President Xi Jinping has launched a program to “Sinicize” all religions to make sure they don’t offer alternate viewpoints to the Communist Party. As part of that policy, Beijing is strengthening its sway over clerical appointments and religious teachings to emphasize patriotism. The Chinese leadership has been engaged for years in a campaign to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama, who remains popular among Tibetans despite nearly six decades in exile. It has also ramped up a mass detention program for Muslims in its northwest region of Xinjiang, where Beijing is worried about violent separatism fanned by militant Islam. Giving the Vatican too much say risks setting a bad precedent in Beijing’s eyes. The Vatican had hoped to sign the deal in the spring, but needed several more months to overcome resistance from some Chinese Catholics, one of the persons familiar with the matter said. In particular, the bishop of the southeastern diocese of Shantou balked at stepping aside in favor of an excommunicated bishop as part of the agreement, this person said. Pope Francis’ pursuit of the deal reflects his desire for better relations with China—where Christianity is growing fast, though most new adherents are Protestants—and an end to divisions among Catholics there. China’s estimated 10 million Catholics are legally supposed to worship only in churches approved by the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, a state-controlled body not recognized by the Vatican. But many Catholics attend unregistered churches in so-called underground communities led by bishops loyal only to Rome. Beijing is eager for the publicity boost that mending ties with the Vatican would bring, even as the Communist Party prosecutes a systematic campaign to bring Catholicism and all other religions more firmly under its control. A new agreement would allow the pope to veto new nominees for bishops proposed by the Chinese government. Beijing’s major condition for signing has been that the pope recognize the seven Chinese bishops excommunicated by Rome over the years. “The dialogue between the Holy See and the People’s Republic of China continues,” Vatican spokesman Greg Burke said. “There’s nothing else to add at the moment.” At a routine Chinese Foreign Ministry press conference on Thursday, spokesman Geng Shuang declined to confirm the deal’s status, but said China was sincere in its efforts for better relations with the Vatican. China broke off diplomatic relations with the Vatican in 1951. In recent decades, the two sides have cooperated informally to agree on most bishops appointments, but Beijing has periodically named bishops without the pope’s approval. At the last meeting of the negotiating teams, in Rome in June, the Vatican assured the Chinese representatives that Pope Francis would sign the necessary document to lift the excommunications of the seven government-appointed bishops and recognize them as the bishops of their dioceses about a week before the deal is signed, said one of the people familiar with the matter. That recognition would require two bishops who have shunned government control, in the dioceses of Shantou and Mindong, to step aside in favor of government-appointed bishops. They would be the first so-called underground bishops to be asked to do so by the Vatican. Shantou Bishop Zhuang Jianjian and Mindong Bishop Guo Xijin couldn’t be reached for comment on Friday. Also as part of the deal, the government is expected to recognize the “underground” bishop of Qiqihar, near the Russian border, one of the people said. Qiqihar Bishop Wei Jingyi couldn’t be reached for comment Friday. The agreement is explicitly provisional, meaning that it allows for the possibility of revisions after one or two years if either party sees the need. Both parties have agreed that the text of the agreement won’t be published even after it is signed, one of the people said. Critics of the prospective deal have cast it as a capitulation by the Vatican. “I would make a cartoon showing the pope kneeling and offering the keys of the kingdom of heaven and saying, ‘Now, please recognize me as pope,’” Cardinal Joseph Zen, a former bishop of Hong Kong, told an interviewer in March. “The advisers of the pope are giving him advice to renounce his authority.” The agreement on bishop appointments would leave unresolved other major questions between the Vatican and China, including the position of most of the more than 30 bishops recognized by Rome but not by Beijing. The reestablishment of diplomatic relations between Beijing and the Vatican remains a distant goal. https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-and-vatican-to-sign-landmark-deal-over-bishops-1536929831
The argument against this thought is that if PBXVI was forced to resign under threat, he would of course, have to say that Francis is Pope. It must be part of the deal. This is the reason why our Blessed Mother has been warning us for centuries now, through various prophecies. We have been pre-warned, so that we would be able to recognise the signs. On the contrary, by being a heretic, he automatically ceases to be pope. What has happened then, to papal infallibility? Also, it doesn't make any sense to keep saying that we must obey the pope in all things but sin, when almost every new thing he declares or gives a wink and nod to are in contradiction to what the Church has always taught. I do believe in St Malachy's prophecy about the popes, which was alluded to by Abp Ganswein some time after PBXVI's abdication. So I believe that PBXVI is the last pope on that list before Peter the Roman, whose description excludes PF, imho. Never any question about this.
It is possible for a Pope to be a heretic. As I understand it, a Pope speaks infalibly when he confirms as Truth that which the Church has always taught. Not when speaking casually, or blaspheming. Or if speaking of his own will. Trying to figure out the logistics of a sham conclave is just too complicated. Again, the simplest answer is generally True. Francis is our Pope. A terrible one, but still our Pope. A conspiracy to elect a liberal Pope is likely, but Satan trying to destroy the Church does not mean that this Pontificate is invalid.
As explained on Catholic Answers: Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter." So, back to the 2 things I mentioned here: Both were definitive acts.
I tend to disagree. If the right people with authority were to look into it, it could be a very simple matter to determine.
Padraig, you have the most amazing ability, to get interesting and appropriate memes/ gifs/ videos etc.
It is not impossible for a Pope to be a heretic. Some saint (I can't recall which one) explained how it works: although nobody can depose a Pope, a Pope who exposes himself as a heretic deposes himself. That's the gist of it although the Saint used better language to explain it. The trouble is that there must be absolutely no doubt that the Pope is a heretic and Pope Francis is very careful to every now and then say something to make it look like he actually believes what the Church has always taught. Cleverly, he gives us documents like Amoris Laetitia, or talks what is essentially BS wrapped up under the "mercy" catch-all, and then sends out his mouthpieces to promote the heresy. To see him denounced for the heretic he clearly appears to be, the best we can hope for is an investigation into the St. Gallen activities or something similar to the condemnation of Pope Honorius 1. Neither of those scenaries would happen while he is alive, or at least while he remains in office, and likely wouldn't happen for decades after his death because it would require a strong, faithful Pope to do the necessary, and the chances of seeing the current batch of Cardinals electing such a pope are about zero. Yes, he is our Pope. Not the first bad Pope and very, very likely the first in what could be a succession of bad Popes. I'm not convinced that the prophecy of St. Malachy is genuine, but if it were, Pope Francis could very well be Peter the Roman. A lot of people seem to believe that "Peter the Roman" will be some great and holy Pope (some manage to convince themselves that he will be St. Peter himself). When St. Malachy was alive, there was an anti-Pope known as "Peter the Roman", therefore, it is very likely that if the prophecy is genuinely from St. Malachy, "Peter the Roman" on his list is an anti-Pope.
Right, but he is not confirming us in our faith when he teaches error, even if he describes it as Truth. Secondly, the Holy Spirit is not going to assist Pope in pronouncing error. We have Scripture and 2,000 years of Church teaching to compare and contrast the words of the Holy Father to. So, the Pope can not enjoy infallibility if he is teaching error , but he can certainly lie.
The Sexual Abuse Scandals: Symptom of a Profound Crisis of Faith September 12, 2018 | Luiz Sérgio Solimeo | http://www.tfp.org/the-sexual-abuse...gn=TFP180914+-+Why+the+Church+is+in+a+crisis [Please click on the above link for footnotes.] The outrage over both the sexual scandals and the complicity of members of the hierarchy is definitely morally justified. This makes a discussion of the causes all the more necessary. A Sin That Cries to Heaven for Vengeance The sin of homosexuality is extremely grave. Consequently, catechisms and other texts used to list it among the sins that “cry to Heaven for vengeance.”1 The Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by John Paul II in 1992 reads: “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.’”2 Homosexuality is a sin condemned in the Old Testament,3 by both Saint Peter and Saint Paul in the New Testament,4 by Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and by the Popes for 2,000 years. Saint Peter Damian, a Doctor of the Church, says it “should not be considered an ordinary vice, for it surpasses all of them in enormity.”5 Saint Thomas Aquinas explains that since God made the natural order, violating this order by committing the sin of homosexuality insults the Creator. He quotes from Saint Augustine: 'Those foul offenses that are against nature should be everywhere and at all times detested and punished, such as were those of the people of Sodom, which should all nations commit, they should all stand guilty of the same crime, by the law of God which hath not so made men that they should so abuse one another. For even that very intercourse which should be between God and us is violated, when that same nature, of which He is the Author, is polluted by the perversity of lust.6 When a priest or a person consecrated to religious life commits this sin, it becomes a sacrilege.7 When aggravated by child abuse, the Savior’s terrible words apply: “It were better for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he be drowned in the depths of the sea.”8 Sins Against the Faith Are Chastised With Unbridled Sensuality From a theological standpoint, God chastises those who abandon the Faith with unbridled sensuality. In his Epistle to the Romans, Saint Paul explains that the pagans, violating the Natural Law written on their hearts, exchanged the true God for idols and were consequently punished: "Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.9 The great exegete Cornelius a Lapide (1567-1637) comments on Saint Paul’s teaching: "Monstrous sensuality is a punishment for infidelity, impiety, and heresy. This is so because where faith is absent there is no grace of God, and where the grace of God is absent there can be no chastity but only concupiscence.… Heresy and infidelity are born from pride; and the punishment of pride is sensuality just as the prize for humility is chastity. This is the just order established by God; for if man subjects his mind to God, so will his body be subject as well. On the contrary, when man rebels against Him, so does his body rebel against him too, as Saint Gregory aptly puts it: “Humility guarantees the purity of chastity, for if one’s spirit is piously submissive to God, one’s flesh does not illicitly revolt” (lib. XXVI Moral., XII).10 The Roberti-Palazzini Dictionary of Moral Theology classifies homosexuality as one of the “sins that cry to heaven for vengeance.” “The Flight of Lot” from Sodom, by Gustave Doré. Analyzing Saint Paul’s words in Romans 1:26-27, Jesuit Father Fernand Prat explains that the process of decadence has two phases: “first, the gradual clouding of the mind, and then the perversion of the heart and the obliteration of the moral sense.”11 The present crisis shows how far the obliteration of the moral sense has reached in our days, even among the clergy. The Root of the Scandals: A Crisis of Faith Consequently, one must look for the most profound causes of the moral scandals shaking the Church in a crisis of Faith. In his first encyclical, E Supremi, Pope Saint Pius X (1903-1914) alludes to this apostasy, saying: "We were terrified beyond all else by the disastrous state of human society today. For who can fail to see that society is at the present time, more than in any past age, suffering from a terrible and deep-rooted malady which, developing every day and eating into its inmost being, is dragging it to destruction? You understand, Venerable Brethren, what this disease is—apostasy from God.12 Saint Pius X waged a relentless struggle against the modernist heresy that had deeply infiltrated the Church. He pointed out its errors and methods of action in a number of Pontifical documents and took many disciplinary measures.13 This heresy, nevertheless, carried on its insidious action inside the Church. Pius XII launched several important encyclicals against it.14 Paul VI denounced its presence in the Encyclical Ecclesiam Suam, in 1964: "Was not the phenomenon of modernism, for example, which still crops up in the various attempts at expressing what is foreign to the authentic nature of the Catholic religion, an episode of abuse exercised against the faithful and genuine expression of the doctrine and criterion of the Church of Christ by psychological and cultural forces of the profane world?15 Despite all these efforts, the crisis in the Church, and the consequent crisis in society, has worsened. Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira observed: "History narrates the innumerable dramas the Church has suffered in the twenty centuries of her existence: oppositions that germinated outside her and tried to destroy her from outside; malignancies that formed within her, were cut off by her, and thereafter ferociously tried to destroy her from outside. When, however, has history witnessed an attempted demolition of the Church like the present one? No longer undertaken by an adversary, it was termed a self-destruction in a most lofty pronouncement having world-wide repercussion.16 The “self-destruction” Prof. Corrêa de Oliveira refers to is drawn from a famous statement of Paul VI. On December 7, 1968, in an allocution to the students of the Pontifical Lombard Seminary, this Pontiff affirmed: “The Church finds herself in an hour of disquiet, of self-criticism, one might even say of self-destruction.”17 A few years later, in the allocution “Resistite fortes in fide,” the same Pontiff said: “The smoke of Satan has entered into the temple of God through some crack.… An adverse power has intervened. His name is the devil, the mysterious being to which Saint Peter also alludes in his Epistle.”18 In 1981, John Paul II painted the condition of the Church in somber tones: "One must be realistic and acknowledge with a deep and pained sentiment that a great part of today’s Christians feel lost, confused, perplexed, and even disillusioned: ideas contradicting the revealed and unchanging Truth have been spread far and wide; outright heresies in the dogmatic and moral fields have been disseminated, creating doubt, confusion, and rebellion; even the liturgy has been altered. Immersed in intellectual and moral “relativism” and therefore in permissiveness, Christians are tempted by atheism, agnosticism, a vaguely moralistic illuminism, a sociological Christianity, without defined dogmas and without objective morality.19 Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine for the Faith, spoke in a similar fashion: "Developments since the Council seem to be in striking contrast to the expectations of all, beginning with those of John XXIII and Paul VI … What the Popes and the Council Fathers were expecting was a new Catholic unity, and instead one has encountered a dissension which—to use the words of Paul VI—seems to have passed over from self-criticism to self-destruction.20 Reflecting on the crisis of sexual scandals, one must conclude that the punishment of abandonment by God has fallen not only upon civil society but also large sectors of the Church darkened by the “smoke of Satan.” This article is a chapter of the book, I Have Weathered Other Storms: A Response to the Scandals and Democratic Reforms That Threaten the Catholic Church by the TFP Committee on American Issues. [This sounds like a very good book and if anyone here has read it I would love to hear your thoughts about it. Thank you.]
You get some weird ones. "Here's a blurry photo of the true Pope in Exile, named Corey DiFranco, presently in hiding somewhere in Hoboken, New Jersey. The Papacy and True Church is validly preserved only through this Pope, who has taken the Papal name Honorius. Everyone else is in the dark except for fifteen people who meet on the internet!" Seriously, that's barely mockery. It gets crazier and crazier, and everyone excommunicates everyone else.
