The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    God sees and we take our good works with us when we pass away and see Him for our particular judgment
     
    Light, Carol55, Mary's child and 5 others like this.
  2. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"
     
    Carol55, Mary's child, gracia and 4 others like this.
  3. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I knew I could count on you, Mario!
    :);)(y)
     
    Carol55, Mary's child, AED and 3 others like this.
  4. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    I signed it although I still think it's a waste of time.
     
    Light, Carol55, Mary's child and 2 others like this.
  5. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Cardinal Muller gave an interview to the Catholic World Report: https://www.catholicworldreport.com...ng-conversion-to-the-world-instead-of-to-god/

    Cdl. Müller: “We are experiencing conversion to the world, instead of to God”
    In an exclusive CWR interview, the former prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith discusses tensions over the proposed reception of Holy Communion by Protestants, continued conflicts over the Church’s teaching about ordination, and homosexuality and ideology.

    Cardinal Gerhard Müller is the former prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith and the former bishop of Regensburg, Germany. A noted professor of theology, he is president of both the Pontifical Biblical Commission and the International Theological Commission. He is also the author of many books, including The Hope of the Family, Priesthood and Diaconate, and The Cardinal Müller Report:An Exclusive Interview on the State of the Church.

    Cardinal Müller recently responded to some questions from Catholic World Report about the situation in Germany, tensions over the proposed reception of Holy Communion by certain Protestants, continued conflicts over the Church’s teaching about why woman cannot be ordained as priests, and homosexuality.

    The full transcript of the interview is worth reading. It's too long to fit in this post so I'll post it separately.

     
    Carol55, Mary's child, AED and 3 others like this.
  6. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Cardinal Muller's interview as published in Catholic World Report:

    CWR:
    Since 2014 there has been within the Church a steady stream of conflicts and tensions that involve many of the bishops of Germany. What is some of the background for this phenomenon? What is the source of these various conflicts over ecclesiology, Holy Communion, and related matters?

    Cardinal Gerhard Müller: One group of German bishops, with their president [i.e., of the German Bishops’ Conference] in the lead, see themselves as trendsetters of the Catholic Church on the march into modernity. They consider the secularization and de-Christianization of Europe as an irreversible development. For this reason the New Evangelization—the program of John Paul II and Benedict XVI—is in their view a battle against the objective course of history, resembling Don Quixote’s battle against the windmills. They are seeking for the Church a niche where it can survive in peace. Therefore all the doctrines of the faith that are opposed to the “mainstream,” the societal consensus, must be reformed.

    One consequence of this is the demand for Holy Communion even for people without the Catholic faith and also for those Catholics who are not in a state of sanctifying grace. Also on the agenda are: a blessing for homosexual couples, intercommunion with Protestants, relativizing the indissolubility of sacramental marriage, the introduction of viri probati and with it the abolition of priestly celibacy, approval for sexual relations before and outside of marriage. These are their goals, and to reach them they are willing to accept even the division of the bishops’ conference.

    The faithful who take Catholic doctrine seriously are branded as conservative and pushed out of the Church, and exposed to the defamation campaign of the liberal and anti-Catholic media.

    To many bishops, the truth of revelation and of the Catholic profession of faith is just one more variable in intra-ecclesial power politics. Some of them cite individual agreements with Pope Francis and think that his statements in interviews with journalists and public figures who are far from Catholic offer justification even for “watering down” defined, infallible truths of the faith (= dogmas). All told, we are dealing with a blatant process of Protestantizing.

    Ecumenism, in contrast, has as its goal the full unity of all Christians, which is already sacramentally realized in the Catholic Church. The worldliness of the episcopate and clergy in the 16th century was the cause of the division of Christianity, which is diametrically opposed to the will of Christ, the founder of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. The disease of that era is now supposedly the medicine with which the division is to be overcome. The ignorance of the Catholic faith at that time was catastrophic, especially among the bishops and popes, who devoted themselves more to politics and power than to witnessing to the truth of Christ.

    Today, for many people, being accepted by the media is more important than the truth, for which we must also suffer. Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom for Christ in Rome, the center of power in their day. They were not celebrated by the rulers of this world as heroes, but rather mocked like Christ on the cross. We must never forget the martyrological dimension of the Petrine ministry and of the episcopal office.

    CWR: Why, specifically, do some German bishops wish to allow Holy Communion to be given to various Protestants on a regular or common basis?

    Cardinal Müller: No bishop has the authority to administer Holy Communion to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Only in a situation where there is a danger of death may a Protestant request sacramental absolution and Holy Communion as viaticum, if he shares the whole Catholic faith and thereby enters into full communion with the Catholic Church, even though he has not yet declared his conversion officially.

    Unfortunately even bishops today no longer know the Catholic belief in the unity of sacramental and ecclesial communion, and they justify their infidelity to the Catholic faith with allegedly pastoral concern or with theological explanations, which, however, contradict the principles of the Catholic faith. All doctrine and praxis must be founded on Sacred Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition, and must not contradict the previous dogmatic pronouncements of the Church’s Magisterium. This is the case with permission for non-Catholic Christians to receive Communion during Holy Mass—apart from the emergency situation described above.

    CWR: How would you assess, first, the health of the Catholic faith in Germany and then, secondly, in Europe overall? Do you think Europe can or will recover a sense of its previous Christian identity?

    Cardinal Müller: There are a great many people who live out their faith, love Christ and his Church, and set all their hope on God in life and in death. But among them there are quite a few who feel abandoned and betrayed by their shepherds. Being popular in public opinion is nowadays the criterion for a supposedly good bishop or priest. We are experiencing conversion to the world, instead of to God, contrary to the statements of the Apostle Paul: “Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of God” (Gal 1:10).

    We need priests and bishops who are filled with zeal for God’s house, who dedicate themselves entirely to the salvation of human beings on the pilgrimage of faith to our eternal home. There is no future at all for “Christianity Lite.” We need Christians with a missionary spirit.

    CWR: The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith recently reiterated the Church’s perennial teaching that women cannot be ordained priests. Why do you think this teaching, which has been reiterated several times in recent years, continues to be contested by many in the Church?

    Cardinal Müller: Unfortunately right now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is not particularly well esteemed, and its significance for the Petrine primacy is not recognized. The Secretariat of State and the diplomatic service of the Holy See are very important for the relation of the Church to the various States, but the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is more important for the relation of the Church to her Head from whom all grace proceeds.

    Faith is necessary for salvation; papal diplomacy can accomplish a lot of good in the world. But the proclamation of the faith and doctrine must not be subordinated to the requirements and conditions of earthly power plays. Supernatural faith does not depend on earthly power. In faith it is quite clear that the sacrament of Holy Orders in the three degrees of bishop, priest, and deacon can be received validly only by a baptized Catholic man, because only he can symbolize and sacramentally represent Christ as the Bridegroom of the Church. If priestly ministry is understood as a position of power, then this doctrine of the reservation of Holy Orders to Catholics of the male sex is a form of discrimination against women.

    But this perspective of power and of social prestige is false. Only if we see all the doctrines of the faith and the sacraments with theological eyes, instead of in terms of power, will the doctrine of the faith regarding the natural prerequisites for the sacraments of Holy Orders and of marriage be evident to us also. Only a man can symbolize Christ the Bridegroom of the Church. Only one man and one woman can symbolically represent the relation of Christ to the Church.

    CWR: You recently introduced the Italian edition of Daniel Mattson’s book Why I Don’t Call Myself Gay. What impressed you about the book and its approach? How does it differ from some of the “pro-gay” approaches or stances adopted by some Catholics? What can be done to explain, in positive terms, the Church’s teaching about sexuality, marriage, and related matters?

    Cardinal Müller: Daniel Mattson’s book is written from a personal perspective. It is founded on a deep intellectual reflection about sexuality and marriage, which makes it different from any sort of ideology. Therefore it helps people with a same-sex attraction to recognize their dignity and to follow a beneficial path in the development of their personality, and not to let themselves be used as pawns in the ideologues’ demand for power. A human being is an interior unity of spiritual and material organizational principles, and consequently a person and the freely acting subject of a nature that is spiritual, corporeal, and social.

    Man is created for woman and woman for man. The goal of marital communion is not the power of one over the other, but rather unity in self-giving love, in which they both grow and together reach the goal in God. Sexual ideology that reduces a human being to sexual pleasure is in fact hostile to sexuality, because it denies that the goal of sex and eros is agape. A human being cannot let himself be degraded to the status of a more highly developed animal. He is called to love. Only if I love the other for his own sake do I come into my own; only then am I set free from the prison of my primitive egotism. One cannot fulfill oneself at the expense of others.

    The logic of the Gospel is revolutionary in a world of consumerism and narcissism. For only the grain of wheat that falls into the ground and dies does not remain alone but produces much fruit. “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life” (Jn 12:25).
     
  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Yay Dolours!

    I do not expect it to have any effect, but you never know. Besides at this point it is not whether we win or lose, but how we conduct ourselves, because in truth I think the Church is too far gone to be saved by the faithful.

    We are merely to be those soldiers who attempt to keep the flag aloft and keep it from falling into enemy hands until Our Lady arrives with the reinforcements. Even if there are only a handful of us left protecting the Truth, we must do it.
     
  8. gracia

    gracia Archangels

    I think in any battle, exhaustion sets in after a while. And disgust. This is a disgusting battle. But it's worth fighting. Even in tiny, tiny ways.
     
  9. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Yes exhaustion and battle fatigue sets in. We must always reinvigorate ourselves. I know myself, I have become so used to the lunacy that is going on that nothing much is shocking anymore. The insanity is now the new "normal".
     
    Light, Tanker, Carol55 and 4 others like this.
  10. gracia

    gracia Archangels

    I once read a post on Catholic Answers. This is before I had much interest in the Church, but enjoyed fellowshipping with Catholics as fellow Christians. It read something like "if the Catholic Church were not the Real Church, Satan would not be working so hard to malign it". Something along those lines. At the time that made absolutely no sense to me as an argument, but it does now.
     
    Light, Tanker, Carol55 and 4 others like this.
  11. gracia

    gracia Archangels

    And reinforces the power of the Rosary.
     
    Tanker, Carol55, Dolours and 3 others like this.
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Exactly! (y)
     
  13. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Excellent interview! Probably the best I have ever seen from Cardinal Muller.

    Cardinal Müller: No bishop has the authority to administer Holy Communion to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Only in a situation where there is a danger of death may a Protestant request sacramental absolution and Holy Communion as viaticum, if he shares the whole Catholic faith and thereby enters into full communion with the Catholic Church, even though he has not yet declared his conversion officially.

    Thank you Cardinal Muller!
     
  14. gracia

    gracia Archangels

    Cardinal Müller for Pontiff! Someday, may it please God!
     
  15. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Exactly what I thought when I saw Dolours post :)

    I agree wholeheartedly!
     
  16. AED

    AED Powers

    I signed it. “Better to light one candle than curse the darkness.”
     
  17. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Thought Michael V makes a very interesting point on the state of affairs in our Church.

     
    Totus tuus and Don_D like this.
  18. sunburst

    sunburst Powers

    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    Mary's child, Arantxa, Don_D and 2 others like this.
  19. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Julia, This video is 2 years old and while I do agree that the problem in the Church can not be fixed by Pope Francis alone I wonder if Michael Voris might now place some of the responsibility of what is occurring in the Church on the Pope.

    Imho there is just too much evidence that Pope Francis is not helping the situation in the Church to get any better and he may be in fact helping it to get worse, ie. appointing Father James Martin as a consultor to the Vatican's Secretariat for Communications. This is just one example amongst so many others, the latest example would be the one that Sunburst posted above but the list goes on and on.

    In addition, the Pope's recent statement that he questioned why the Dubia cardinals did not first approach him in private leads me to believe that he is either so shrewd and manipulative or he has some health problem that we are unaware of. Unfortunately, I think the former is the case more than I believe in the latter explanation for what the Pope does because he appears to only have a bad memory when it is in relation to things that he does not want to face up to. I don't know enough about Pope Francis to say this with 100% certainty but I have given him the benefit of the doubt too many times to count and enough is enough.

    The following video is the most recent video that I could find from Michael Voris about Pope Francis and I had similar thoughts to what Michael Voris is expressing in the video but I no longer believe that the Pope is having some sort of awakening about these things like the homosexuality in the Church. The expression we use in the States is "he is putting out fires" which means that he is only dealing with the things like Juan Carlos Cruz when things get so bad that he has to and even then Pope Francis appears to have stated something about being "Born Gay". Iow he is not being proactive but only reactive when push comes to shove and he still falls short of the Truth. We need major surgery not Band-aids.

    from 6 days ago
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    sunburst and AED like this.
  20. Canadian cardinal: Find clarity in Scripture

    The Cardinal seems to be echoing the advice in some of the current Marian messages.....for people to now go to scriptures and stay with the true Church teachings....as if things are recognized by heaven as completely in error and one can't depend on those within the hierarchy for correct leadership.

    NEW YORK — Joy has to be rooted in the fullness of reality, the suffering of the cross, the glory of the Resurrection and the providence of God, not in a gooey meringue of sweetness.

    This was one of the messages Cardinal Thomas Collins of Toronto shared with a New York audience June 16.

    At a time when the church is under attack by “grievously, ferociously secular people who are trying to squeeze faith out of everything,” those who take a deep dive into Scripture will find joy and some clarity, according to the cardinal.

    .......
    There is a time for both personal and formal prayers, Cardinal Collins said. He recalled that “Jesus ad libbed his prayers in the Garden of Gethsemane, but quoted the psalms when he was on the cross.”

    ........
    Cardinal Collins said prayer should generally be “workmanlike and part of who we are, like the heart: it’s hidden, steady and does not have a creative beat.”

    Although God sometimes gives us “cheap and temporary” joy of the “gooey” kind, sustainable joy and true faith are deeper, he said.

    “There is evil all around us, some of it subtle, some not so subtle,” he said. “We are called to serve the Lord with gladness and in Christ we find our joy, not in the false sense that everything’s fine, but in the cold realism that sees the evil around us … but also the promise of God. Our symbol is not a happy face, it’s the cross of Jesus Christ, which is where we find our joy.”

    “We are facing an assault on faith and it’s all the more important we not react in a way that imitates the oppressors, but respond with the deep joy of the Gospel.”

    http://www.pittsburghcatholic.org/news/canadian-cardinal-find-clarity-in-scripture-51557142
     
    padraig, Booklady, sunburst and 3 others like this.

Share This Page