I think this is actually a large disaster than people realize. The meeting was held at the CDF, which means it is acknowledged that this is a doctrinal issue and not merely a pastoral one. Instead of the Pope doing his job and citing the clear Church teaching on this issue he has sent it back to the local bishops conference to decide. I repeat: A doctrinal issue has been officially sent to the local bishops conference to decide. This is a disaster. It will set horrible precedents for the future. Once something has been given it is very difficult to take it back.
It would be easier to avoid this difficult and emotionally charged topic, and send it off to another thread for further discussion. Unfortunately I think history will show that it has played a central role in the current collapse of the Church, which IS the topic of this thread. In this manipulated “desire” to avoid “hurting” Jewish sensitivities following WWII, the Church has destroyed her own missionary zeal. And that is to the delight of the enemies of the Church. Convenient, no? The view DeGaulle posted is my view and the view of many traditional Catholics. It does NOT make us or traditional Catholics in general “anti-Semitic” to believe or state this, but that aspersion is cast about too often just to stifle open discussion and debate. That too is just a bit too convenient and contrived. This belief arises from a Protestant misunderstanding of scripture. For Catholics, the “New Israel” spoken of in the New Testament is quite literally the New Testament Church, i.e., Catholicism. Protestantism inherently rejects that, and modern Protestant literal fundamentalism and Evangelicalism identifies the modern secular nation-state of Israel with the New Testament New Israel, so in their juvenile understanding of scripture any criticism of the modern state of Israel is blasphemy. And since America is a Protestant nation, that misunderstanding has infected Catholic thinking. In the end, much of the modern impetus to labeling others as “anti-Semitic” is, ironically, based in anti-Catholicism. And anti-Catholics, both outside and inside the Church, use that to pursue their agenda.
I like the way you side stepped the issue of new thread lol Couple this with false ecumenism and this is what we have now
We seem damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. But the cat is already out of the bag, with different doctrines on dealing with adulterers in different dioceses. Perhaps Jarg's reference to Sister Lucia's prophesy is apt, God help us. It will be the ultimate in cafeteria Catholicism. Any flavour you like, but somewhere the True Church will quietly continue-that's the flavour I'm going for.
This pope’s close relationship (false ecumenism) with Protestant ministers (he placed a Presbyterian minister (?) as head editor of the new South American L’Osservatore Romano) goes hand in hand with his uncomfortably close relationship with (liberal) rabbis and Islamic leaders. http://6abc.com/religion/meet-two-of-pope-francis-friends-a-rabbi-and-a-muslim-leader/948715/
Yep, and one that is already clearly decided. So, in essence a do over! What could possibly go wrong?
I agree Praetorian, nothing of this decentralization is good but God always makes everything work for the good and this may be in the long term a way of amputate those parts of the Church that have gone astray in order to subsequently re-evangelize them. On another note, it is clear that if the pope thinks the Truth depends on what bishops vote at a given time in history, his magisterium is then unnecessary. It means he doesn’t believe in the special grace given to the Vicar of Christ to confirm his brothers in the Faith, nor does he believe in the Teachings of Church which are as clear and sound as a blue summer sky with regards intercommunion. If he really thinks the German bishops can decide what the Truth is, he looses his authority, he should step aside or be removed. This is not a new problem that requires a synod or something of the sort, the bishops know what the true answer in this case is, and they know the reasons why they can’t. If they think they can decide a new truth based on a unanimous vote, they are done, they should go home, and we have to resist them steadfastly up to the point Our Lord allows us. Simple as that.
The nub of the issue. Well said. As Father Castellani reminded us, Christ is coming back and we won't be waiting too long, either.
There are positive things; for instance it has taught me not to take the Church and the Papacy in particlar for granted. It has taught me of the need to study, to think and to pray and use discernment
The Remnant's Michael Matt was on the Glenn Beck radio program recently. Its nothing new to any of us but still worth a listen: https://soundcloud.com/glennbeck/problems-with-the-pope-w
Cardinal Eijk: Pope’s response to German bishops ‘incomprehensible’ by Nick Hallett posted Monday, 7 May 2018 Cardinal Eijk (Getty) The Dutch cardinal said the Pope should have clearly rejected proposals to allow Protestants to receive Communion Pope Francis’s response to the German bishops’ draft guidelines on Communion for Protestants is “completely incomprehensible”, Cardinal Willem Eijk has said. The Archbishop of Utrecht said the guidelines clearly breach Church teaching, and expressed his surprise that Pope Francis had not rejected them outright. “The Holy Father should have given the delegation of the German episcopal conference clear directives, based on the clear doctrine and practice of the Church,” he said. “He should have also responded on this basis to the Lutheran woman who asked him on November 15, 2015 if she could receive Communion with her Catholic spouse, saying that this is not acceptable instead of suggesting she could receive Communion on the basis of her being baptized, and in accordance with her conscience.” Writing in National Catholic Register, Cardinal Eijk said Pope Francis had caused “great confusion among the faithful” and “endangered” the Church’s unity. “This is also the case with cardinals who publicly propose to bless homosexual relationships, something which is diametrically opposed to the doctrine of the Church, founded on Sacred Scripture, that marriage, according to the order of creation, exists only between a man and a woman,” he added. The cardinal concluded by saying the situation resembled the end times, quoting Article 675 of the Catechism which speaks of “a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth.” http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...-response-to-german-bishops-incomprehensible/ - His reference to homosexual unions is probably directed to Cardinal de Kesel of Brussels recent comments, he is a protege of Daniels, see excerpt from recent life site news artclie below: It appears he was more talkative during his April 24 meeting with HLWM, in which the Cardinal is quoted as saying: “The church must respect gays and lesbians more, including in the way they live out that sexuality.” To this, Zizo remarked: “It appears that the top of the church is now prepared to accept LGBT relationships.” It added that the Cardinal “appeared truly to care about the well-being of gays and lesbians and he also talked about his meeting with a trans woman.” https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/belgian-diocese-wont-deny-cardinal-endorsed-homosexuality
The German Church Divided https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2018/05/07/the-german-church-divided/ Robert Royal MONDAY, MAY 7, 2018 It’s tiresome to write about Rome these days. Confusion continues, seemingly without anyone taking much notice. But some things that happen don’t allow you to ignore them. This time, it’s the meeting of German bishops in Rome last Thursday – a meeting called because there is division within the German bishops’ conference about whether to allow Communion, in some instances, to Protestant spouses of Catholics. The conflict seemed to have been resolved a few weeks earlier. According to reports, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) – the Vatican office charged with handling doctrinal matters – sent the Germans a letter saying that they could not change longstanding practice. Former CDF head Cardinal Gerhard Mueller has argued the same point at length and with great clarity. Pope Emeritus Benedict also is said to agree. Reports also appeared that Pope Francis did not want the letter published. Instead, he called bishops on both sides to Rome. The head of the German bishops’ conference, Cardinal Marx, expected the pope’s support, since many believe Pope Francis favors such changes. But the current head of the CDF merely told the German bishops that the pope’s decision was that they go home and reach a “unanimous” decision on their own. Now, as with many things the pope does, the meaning is unclear, and you could read that decision in several ways. The first and most obvious interpretation is that the pope is trying to further his vision of a “decentralized” Church, in which individual bishops and bishops’ conferences don’t always turn to Rome for answers to questions. Read the rest at the link
Thank you Brian for referencing this well-written article: https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2018/05/07/the-german-church-divided/ An excerpt: Pope Francis is not the clearest of leaders. But what is perhaps even more disturbing in these contested matters is that we are often arguing as if the questions have never been treated earlier in the Church. They have – and were settled in ways that do not lend themselves to change via “dialogue.” We are in a time when we are not only increasing division among existing Catholics, but with the Fathers of the Church and the great doctors and saints, martyrs, and confessors of the ages. And ultimately we have to ask ourselves, would Sts. Peter or Paul, would Jesus Himself, think that allowing these divisions to persist is what God wants for His people? Come Holy Spirit and vanquish this cloud of confusion! Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
This is very much in line with what Cardinal Eijk stated. Just realized he wrote a public letter responding to the Pope´s 'need for unanimity' answer to the German Bishops. Check out this paragraph from the mentioned letter, these are very strong words clearly directed to the Pope, it almost feels as a correction of sorts. "Now the Holy Father has informed the delegation of the German episcopal conference that it must discuss again the draft proposals for a pastoral document on, among other things, administering Communion, and try to find unanimity. Unanimity about what? Assuming that all members of the German bishops’ conference, after having discussed them again, unanimously decide that Communion can be administered to Protestants married to a Catholic (something that will not happen), will this — while being contrary to what the Code of Canon Law and the Catechism of the Catholic Church say in this regard — become the new practice in the Catholic Church in Germany? The practice of the Catholic Church, based on her faith, is not determined and does not change statistically when a majority of an episcopal conference votes in favor of it, not even if unanimously." The full letter is here http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edwa...ive-clarity-to-german-bishops-on-intercommuni Thank God for this Cardinal, as well as for Muller. Let's pray others speak up soon !
It is not inconceivable that a unanimous conference of bishops might decide that the serpent in the Garden was right. Truth is not at all based on human opinion. Unfortunately, this is one truth that has lost favour in the post-modern world. It is now a truism that the autonomous human will decides what is, or isn't, true. This lie now dominates the academic world, consequently infecting many of those who graduate from it. Students of theology are not excluded from exposure.
It is more that the devil has constructed another new broader gate with fancy colours and catchy music. One with a slippery slope leading down to it.
