You know if everyone in the entire world were to say they were right and you were wrong; if you are right you are right and if you are wrong you are wrong, no matter what the rest of the world says.. Majority or power does not enter into it. The truth is never bottled in a Hierarchical or Democratic bottle. The fact that most people , or that most people, more, ' important', than you, disagree with you does not make them right. It has to be said that a very large amount of Cardinals and Bishops in the Church hierarchy and The Vatican itself are out and out heretics, either heretics themselves or silent in the face of heresy (which is even worse). We don't have to like it; but it's the simple truth.
Padraig, It's awful. The following article is from a secular news source but it still gives the picture of how things are even more intense there recently, China says it protects religious freedom, but the Bible is disappearing from online bookstores Written by Zheping Huang April 4, 2018 https://qz.com/1244413/china-says-i...bible-is-disappearing-from-online-bookstores/ Just as China pledged to uphold religious freedom, China’s 70 million Christians are finding it harder to get a copy of the Holy Bible. Online bookstores in China have pulled the Bible off their shelves in recent days, with searches for the Bible in Chinese on major e-commerce sites including Alibaba’s Taobao, JD.com, and Amazon China yielding no results. “The item is off the shelf.” The Bible is removed from a bookstore on Taobao. (Screenshot from Taobao) Just this week, the Chinese government pledged to continue to protect religious freedom in a white paper, the first on the matter in more than two decades. However, the document, released by the State Council, said that religions should also adapt themselves to China’s socialist society. A Beijing resident, who asked not to be identified, said that she bought a copy of the Bible on a bookstore on Taobao about a year ago, but that the book was no longer available on the site. When contacted by Quartz, the shop owner said the removal was forced by Taobao, which didn’t give a reason. Chinese internet users reported similar cases on microblogging site Weibo and Twitter, with some posting screenshots (link in Chinese) of their chats with bookshop owners who also said they were forced to take the Bible off their shelves. Chinese state media reported Monday (April 2) that Beijing authorities demanded JD.com (link in Chinese) crack down on “illegal” publications on its platform, without giving more specifics. The Quran was still available on Taobao, Amazon China, and another online retailer Dangdang, but not on JD.com. The four companies didn’t reply immediately to requests for comment. A Catholic based in Zhejiang province, who asked to remain anonymous, said that he and his church members had bought copies of the Bible from Chinese shopping sites such as Taobao in past years, but that they now have to smuggle them in from Hong Kong. “Now our country is extremely strict about religious control, and you can’t buy [the Bible] online,” he said. Despite its pledge to uphold freedom of worship, Beijing has severely tightened its grip over religion in recent years, including passing new regulations in September that among other things bans religious groups from taking foreign funds, and allows authorities to monitor religious content in online chat groups. Over the past years, the government has ramped up its campaign to tear down unauthorized churches across China, and has intensified its crackdown on Muslims, such as by restricting religious education. For China’s Catholic population, any sign of suppression of religious freedom is particularly sensitive, as multiple media outlets have reported that Beijing and the Vatican are nearing a deal over the appointment of bishops. China severed ties with the Holy See in 1951, and has since appointed its own bishops through its official church, which the Vatican prohibits. The Vatican currently has diplomatic ties with Taiwan. Catholics in China are split between those who worship at government-sanctioned churches, where the bishops are appointed by the state, and those who attend secret “underground” churches loyal only to Rome.
Yes, because they are planning to retranslate it into communist speak. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...-online-sales-amazon-taobao-jd-dang-dang.html
I can join you in what you say. Yesterday on my reading and reflection on the messages given to the holy monk in Ireland on his June 17, 2008 message from his book In Sinus Jesu this message resonates with me at this moment. It a message that many other messagers have also received and it is about trust. Trust Me with all the events of your life. I will not abandon you. You are Mine and I will not forsake you. The decisions of men are all in My hands. Nothing will befall you that I do not permit. I will give you My grace to accept the changing circumstances of your life. It is I who am behind all the happens to you. Nothing escapes My wisdom; nothing escapes My love; nothing escapes My omnipotence. Trust Me, and be at peace. I bless you with all the love of My Sacred Heart. Do not be afraid. Tell Me again and again that you rust in My merciful love for you.
They blew up, yes, actually blew to pieces, in cold blood, a major Protestant mega Church in China just a few weeks ago. They also threw it's leaders in jail. What does that tell you? What does that tell me? What should that be telling the Vatican?
I think, Padraig, that you might want to think that out again. Hitler's National Socialists never won an overall majority and got fewer votes in predominantly Catholic areas than elsewhere in Germany. This from a Professor of Modern History at the University of Nottingham: http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar6_Geary.htm "The Nazi Party was therefore without doubt a Volkspartei: recruiting its members and its voters across a broad range of social groups, from both sexes and from the older as well as the younger generation. However, this support was never able to deliver enough votes for a parliamentary majority, nor was it distributed randomly across German society. Being a Catholic, unemployed or living in a large town significantly reduced the likelihood of voters to opt for Hitler, as did the existence of strong ideological and political traditions. Conversely, being a Protestant in rural Germany greatly increased such a propensity, as did the absence of strong loyalties. The structure of Nazi support therefore requires that explanations of the rise of Hitler are not simply reduced to the experiences and sentiments common to all Germans, but must take into account both the timing of Nazi success and the specific grievances of those who did choose the NSDAP to speak for them." Pope Pius X11 spoke out against National Socialism when very few other did and when some of Europe's elite were cosying up to Hitler. The Vatican came out of the fascist era in Europe with far less to be ashamed of than most. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/march-10th-2017/the-end-of-the-hitlers-pope-myth/ That Hitler's Pope myth was the brainchild of the Soviet propaganda machine (I could be mistaken but I think it gained traction with a play written by a Soviet Jew which was staged across the English speaking world and promoted as though it were Gospel truth), and expounded on by Cornwell's since discredited book. There's no doubt that some prominent Catholics supported Hitler but to suggest that "the Church" supported him or failed to speak out against him is a false narrative. There is a discussion to be had about the rise of fascism and especially anti-Semitism in post WW1 Europe but it tends to get obfuscated by shouts of anti-Semitism or holocaust denial. The role of Freemasonry in the rise of both Communism and National Socialism would be an interesting study but somehow that has managed to escape any scrutiny. Incidentally, I have read that the Nazis were rather fond of quoting Martin Luther.
The ordinary Catholics did rather better than their leaders Dolours; however it was not to them I was referring. I know of only two Catholic Bishops who spoke out publically against the Nazis; Munster and Berlin; do you know of more? And the Concordat with the Nazis by the Vatican was a terrible mistake, as it was with Mussolini in Italy
You only know of two who are reported as speaking out. Unlike today, priests in the 1930's would have followed their Bishop's lead and Catholics would have paid attention to their priests. I think it most likely that Bishops encouraged Catholics to vote for the Catholic Party. The fact remains that Catholics were less likely to vote for the Nazis than other groups.
Once again Dolours, I was not referring to ordinary Catholics or priests ;I was referring to the Catholic hierarchy. A few German priests did well, but I think there were some 4,000 priests held in the Priest's Barrack at Dachau Concentration Camp, but the vast majority of them were Polish. Perhaps you might like to check out how many Catholic German Bishops were held in Concentration Camps for following their example?? As to Austria, an almost totally Catholic country, the situation was different. There the overwhelming majority of ordinary Catholics did indeed vote for union with Nazis Germany , under their fellow Austrian, Herr Hitler. This leaves a very, very bitter taste in the mouth. I'm not spouting anti Catholic Propaganda in this; its just the simple truth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp
I have to admit I am confused by a lot of this as well. There is a circular logic here that I cannot understand. I must be missing something. It seems to be true that: Only a Pope can convene a council. ...But a heretic cannot be Pope. So...the cardinals could convene a council by themselves since there is no Pope. ...But they need a declaratory sentence from a council before they can be sure the Pope has lost his office and powers. ???? I am either missing something or whoever wrote these laws was very confused.
Hindsight, Padraig, is 20/20 vision. It's far too easy to say that the overwhelming majority of Austrian Catholics voted for Hitler knowing that it would usher in the holocaust. We don't know what were the alternatives, what was the prevailing political and economic climate and what were voters' primary objective(s) at the ballot box. I have seen accusations that the Catholic Poles didn't cover themselves in glory during the Nazi occupation, but nobody mentions that to the Nazis the Poles, like the Jews, were sub-human because they weren't an Aryan race. What we learned from the Fascist and Soviet eras as well as examples of brutal totalitarianism in other parts of the world is that when you scratch the surface and given the right incentives, we all are capable of great evil or great good. Looking around the world now, I fear that the same lesson will have to be re-learned the hard way soon enough.
I don't want to go down the road Dolours of the rights and wrongs of the Poles , otherwise we'd end up running round in circles. But the Nazis made no secret of their views on a whole range of awful issues, including the Jews; in voting for Union with Germany the Austrian Catholics voted for Nazi policies. Yes we are all capable of great evil and great good, this does not take away from the fact this was a great evil. Maybe we could have voted for this evil too. But the simple fact is; we did not vote for Nazis Rule. They did. No one forced them to do this, they voted in a minor anti Christ , quite freely and of their own volition in massive numbers. .
It makes so little sense that there must be something we're missing. That's all I can say on this topic until I learn to be more charitable. This being Divine Mercy Sunday, I've been to Confession and my firm purpose of amendment is that I will confine myself to assessing actions and comments without attributing destructive intent to the reason for any evident motives attaching to the actions or comments.. Please remind me if you see me falling off that wagon. On a brighter note, the Divine Mercy celebrations were so uplifting. Looking around the church, the average age of the congregation must have been about half my own age. This particular feast attracts more young families and teenagers than we normally see at Mass. Such a rich diversity of people, too, who seemed to be from all corners of the globe. Wriggling kids and crying babies, mothers and fathers lining up for Confession, toddler climbing onto dad's knee as he made his confession; and I never thought the sound of crying babies could be music to the ears but it was. What I saw at that celebration of the Feast was the universal Church - God's family all gathered together to pay homage to Jesus the Divine Mercy. The only downside was the absence of home grown priests. Mass immigration can have its advantages.
I don't want to be argumentative about this so I'll leave it there. people tend to write their own narrative of history providing how it suits. There is one weirdly bizarre scene in the musical, 'The Sound on Music' . I always recall. The Von Trapp family are escaping the Nazis from Austria and the patriotic audience jump up and sing the Austrian Nation Anthem , 'Eidelweiss'. In fact this could never have happened this way. The Austrians were madly pro German. Captain Von Trapp may have song it very much on his own I might add..and fair play to him. A good Catholic gentleman. Hollywood. Anyway let's agree to disagree.
At the point of Anschluss, the 'Final Solution' had not been proposed, at least publicly. Apart from the issue of supporting a pan-German Nationalism, not necessarily associated with Nazism, the Austrians could be accused of little more than favouring a policy little different than the segregationism of the American South at that time. It was certainly far less invidious than any modern population that democratically supports an abortionist regime.
To my knowledge (and I admit it is limited with reference to Padre Pio) the good saint was never ordered to do something against the faith. He was treated poorly at times, accused of things, etc. and he chose to be docile and humble, but no bishop ever told him to give communion to active adulterers or anything of the like. I wonder what he would have said if he was ordered do that? What would Mother Angelica say if she were alive today? Obedience is not blind in the Catholic Church. We are allowed, indeed we must, disobey immoral orders from superiors. Imagine if a superior ordered Padre Pio to utter blashemy. Is there anyone who thinks he would have obeyed? I think it is very important for us not to look to just any saint for how to act in this time, but to look to saints who lived through times like we are living. Look to saints like St. Athanasius. God creates different saints for different things. St. Joan of Arc took up the sword. Can we imagine St. Francis doing that? Does that mean one was wrong? No. They were different saints called to do different things. Still we must keep in mind that we must act with charity and understand that what is going on is being permitted by God. Just as The Passion was. We will seem to lose this fight in the coming years. Our Lord and Our Lady will win it in the end, but in the meantime we will continue to be treated poorly and not only by the world, but by our own Church. Let us take up our cross. Be charitable, but resistant to error. Be humble, but not led astray. Be faithful, but not angry. And above all Pray and do penance.
I am very happy to disagree. I greatly enjoy well-informed debate with someone, like yourself, of virtuous motivation. I can only say what I know, and in so much as that differs from what you have learned, I should be prepared to learn from you, as long as I keep my ego at bay! In truth, there is nothing much between us-our primary interest is Justice and Truth, our differences are merely in our possession of what are, on both our parts, incomplete data, a predictable outcome of the fog of war and the mist created by gargantuan forces of evil.
I think the persecution was against himself personally. In our case it is not only against us but others, the Church as a whole. There in lies the big difference. That's why we have to fight, not for ourselves; but the Church.
