I am glad he is in Rome and I am miles away in Ireland. Even looking at his picture in Church unnerves me.
It's hard to see how giving someone a gift of a spiritual bouquet could be indicative of Pelagianism. New Advent's Catholic Encylopaedia lists the following Canons instituted by the Council of Carthage in its condemnation of Pelagius, all of which subsequently became articles of faith, binding on the universal Church: Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin. New-born children must be baptized on account of original sin. Justifying grace not only avails for the forgiveness of past sins, but also gives assistance for the avoidance of future sins. The grace of Christ not only discloses the knowledge of God's commandments, but also imparts strength to will and execute them. Without God's grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works. Not out of humility, but in truth must we confess ourselves to be sinners. The saints refer the petition of the Our Father, "Forgive us our trespasses", not only to others, but also to themselves. The saints pronounce the same supplication not from mere humility, but from truthfulness Lots of accusations are made against Catholic traditionalists but I don't see how they are guilty of being out of line with any of the above. Looking at no. 3 and especially no.4 on the list, I wonder which is closer to Pelagianism - Amoris Laetitia or Spiritual Bouquets. It's certainly spooky that the Pope celebrates Martin Luther while accusing Rosary praying Catholics of Pelagianism.
Well, Dolours, let me post the little homily that upsets you and the lifesitenews people. Then people can make up their own mind about what the Holy Father said: There was something fascinating in Jesus’ prayer, so fascinating that one day His disciples asked to be introduced to it. The episode takes place in the Gospel of Luke, who among the Evangelists was the one who most documented the mystery of the “prayerful” Christ. The Lord prayed. Jesus’ disciples are struck by the fact that He, especially in the morning and in the evening, retires in solitude and “immerses” Himself in prayer. And for this reason, one day, they ask Him to teach them too how to pray (cf. Lk 11:1). It is at this point that Jesus transmits what has become the quintessential Christian prayer: the Pater Noster. In truth, Luke, compared to Matthew, gives us Jesus’ prayer in a slightly abbreviated form, beginning with a simple invocation: “Father” (v.2). All the mystery of Christian prayer is summarized here, in this word: having the courage to call God with the name of Father. It is also affirmed in the liturgy when, inviting us to recite together Jesus’ prayer, he uses the expression “let us dare to say”. Indeed, calling God with the name of “Father” is not to be taken for granted by any means. We are led to use more elevated titles, that seem to us more respectful of His transcendence. Instead, invoking Him as “Father” places us in a relation of confidence with Him, like a child who addresses his father, knowing that he is loved and cared for by him. This is the great revolution that Christianity impresses in the religious psychology of man. The mystery of God, which always fascinates us and makes us feel small, no longer makes us afraid, nor does it crush us or cause us anguish. This is a difficult revolution to accept in our human heart: so much so that it is true that even in the accounts of the Resurrection, it is said that the women, after having seen the empty tomb and the angel, “fled … for trembling and astonishment had seized them” (Mk 16:8). But Jesus reveals to us that God is a good Father, and says to us, “Do not fear!” Let us think of the parable of the merciful father (cf. Lk 15: 11-32). Jesus tells the story of a father who knows only love for his sons. A father who does not punish his son for his arrogance, and who is capable even of entrusting to him his part of his inheritance, and letting him leave home. God is the Father, says Jesus, but not in a human way, because there is no father in the world who would act like the protagonist of this parable. God is Father in His way: good, helpless in the face of the free will of man, capable only of conjugating the verb “to love”. When the rebellious son, after having squandered everything, finally returns to the home of his birth, that father does not apply criteria of human justice, but feels first and foremost the need to forgive, and with his embrace he makes his son understand that during all that long period of his absence he was missed, he was painfully missed by his loving father. What an unfathomable mystery is a God Who reserves this type of love for His children! Perhaps it is for this reason that, evoking the centre of the Christian mystery, the apostle Paul does not wish to translate into Greek a work that Jesus pronounces in Aramaic: “abbà”. St. Paul touches on this theme twice in his epistles (cf. Rm 8: 15; Gal 4: 6), and twice he does not translate the word, leaving it in the same form in which it passed Jesus’ lips, “abbà”, an even more intimate term than “Father”, and which some translate as “papa”, or “daddy”. Dear brothers and sisters, we are never alone. We may be distant, hostile, we may even profess ourselves to be “without God”. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ shows us that God cannot stay without us: He will never be a God “without man”; it is He Who cannot stay without us, and this is a great mystery! God cannot be God without man: the great mystery is this! And this certainty is the wellspring of our hope”, which we find conserved in all the invocations of Our Father. When we are in need of help, Jesus does not tell us to resign ourselves and close ourselves up, but instead to turn to the Father and to ask Him trustfully. All our needs, from the most evident and everyday, such as food, health and work, up to those such as being forgiven and kept from temptation, are not the reflection of our solitude: there is instead a Father who always looks upon us with love, and Who certainly does not abandon us. I will now make you a proposal: each one of us has many problems and many needs. Let us think a little, in silence, of these problems and these needs. Let us think also of the Father, of our Father, Who cannot stay without us, and Who in this moment is looking at us. And all together, with trust and hope, let us pray: “Our Father, who art in heaven…”. http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2017/06/07/170607a.html
Does Pope Francis ever speak of Our Lady of Grace as mediatrix ? The need for the rosary as Our Lady requests?
Pelagianism is a non reference word here. It's not simply wrong, its daft; a bit like calling an elephant a octopus. It has no meaning. It's goobledegook.
I think that pope’s commentary on neó pelagianism is just his personal opinion - it shows the kind of prejudices that are engrained in his psyche. We all have these rooted prejudices. Sometimes we can spit them out when in a small group that we trust, but that doesn’t mean we can’t realized how flawed we are in throwing labels at people. So I want to think the pope is aware and was just ranting maybe because he feels under attack from many groups in the Church or who knows why. Otherwise why would he reach out to SSPX - they certainly fall under the popes definition of neo pelagians, restaurationists, etc. I mean, after five years we know we are before a complex man, full of contradictions, outspoken prejudices - and that has the advantage of reminding us that the Church does not survive thanks to the popes, but in spite of them, which with such incredible saints as JPII we may have forgotten. The neo pelagian name calling seems similar to his persistance with denouncing the confessional as a torture chamber. When he makes this comments it just seems like he is speaking of a widespread phenomenon in the Church, but how many times have you encounter a priest that beats you up with threats in the confessional? probably not once, at least I have never. So it seems the pope is exaggerating, maybe due to his personal experience, or maybe due to his cultural background which as a southern Spaniard I can relate to - exaggeration is indeed a very widespread form of speaking in southern Spain and Latin America. It certainly should be used with much prudence when one is speaking in public to millions of faithful. It is certainly disturbing to hear the pope say this things about confession or neo pelagians, because they are very off putting, they make you not want to enter the confessional, or they antagonize communities within the Church (“o look those are the neo pelagians the pope is talking about¡”). So yes very unfortunate comments, but a good occasion to remind us how fragile is human nature and how much we need to pray for this man and the Church so that all this crazy things “work together for good”. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ession-is-a-place-of-forgiveness-not-threats/ by Junno Arocho Esteves posted Wednesday, 28 Feb 2018 Pope Francis: Confession is a place of forgiveness, not threats. God 'does not want to beat us and condemn us,' the Pope said. Priests must be mindful that the confessional is a place where people can find forgiveness and mercy, not threats and condemnation, Pope Francis said. God “does not want to beat us and condemn us,” but rather “he always looks for a way to enter the hearts” of those who are repentant, the Pope said in his homily on February 27 at morning Mass in the Domus Sanctae Marthae.
I did once meet a priest who, 'beat me up ' , in a confessional a few years back. It was in Rome and it was a surprise. It's true its very,very rare. I think it was the only time it happened my entire life. I found it a little bit bracing, to tell the truth. It forced me to take a long hard look at myself. Which is is no bad thing. But at the end of day I think he was mistaken.
Well, David, as I recall the exchange we had about whether "it's God who needs us" you hadn't found the text but were willing to believe it is right there in the Bible because Pope Francis said so. When I asked you to show me whereabouts in the Bible you couldn't, and the reason you gave was that you are not a theologian. You were, indeed, willing to accept that "it's God who needs us" on the basis that Pope Francis was reported as having said it. As to the text of the sermon you quoted, I see nothing in the examples given by Pope Francis which show that God cannot be God without us. All well and good if Pope Francis is saying that the fact that the Word was made flesh means that God will forever have a human as well as divine nature. If Pope Francis is saying, and so it appears from the context of his sermon, that God cannot be God without you and me, the examples he uses don't support that claim. God would still be God - Father, Son (both divine and human) and Holy Spirit - if every single one of us were to use our free will to take the wide, easy road to Hell.
Thank you Dolours. I had neither the strength nor the desire to refute David's position yet again. It can grow tiresome and it makes no dent anyway. A spiritual bouquet is an ancient and beautiful offering. I do not care for the thought processes of those who despise everything that went before Vatican II. It is as if they do not think that the Church of Christ for 2000 years "got it right".
As you know full well, Pope Francis does not "despise everything that went before Vatican II". Nor does he despise those who sent him a spiritual bouquet. He reportedly said: An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me.
My father always said never smile at a man you mean to hit. Pope Francis does just that. He says he , 'Respects' them, then he knocks them clean out with a whole succession of nasty comments. Stiffing them with a smile. A really, really nasty move from a totally nasty, unscrupulous operator. He has all the morals of a back alley fighting cat. To say you, 'Respect', someone; then to totally rubbish them. This, by definition is known the trade as a, 'Sucker punch'
Excuse me David. I did not say that the Pope said that. I choose my words very carefully as do you. As someone who is oft complaining about being misquoted I would think you would have better judgement than to put words in my mouth. It is a very common train of thought today for many liberal prelates to NEVER quote anything from before Vatican II. As if the Church began in 1965. This came to my mind as I had been catching up on the thread and reading what was written on the past several pages. That was what I was referring to and I AM SICK OF IT! Can you tell me why it would concern the Pope that some people were sending him a spiritual Bouquet? Can you? Please don't answer I have no real interest in some answer explaining it away.
Pope Francis himself answers why. Because it is a practice rooted in the past. And PF despises the past. Like an altar boy who reverently holds his hands together. "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...', but this thing of counting... And these groups return to practices and to disciplines that I lived through - not you, because you are not old - to disciplines, to things that in that moment took place, but not now, they do not exist today...
They despise the Gospel message that if we love Jesus we will follow His Commandments. Vatican 11 is their excuse. Contrary to what they would have us believe, Vatican 11 didn't cancel everything that went before it. Praying for others is still a requirement for all Catholics. Strengthening our brethren by letting them know that we are asking the Blessed Mother's intercession on their behalf is still a good Catholic practice. Spiritual bouquets were something we learned about as children. For example, spiritual bouquets were organised to be presented to a nun celebrating maybe the jubilee of her taking final vows. The children came from a variety of backgrounds - ranging from very poor to quite well off. With a spiritual bouquet, a poor child's gift had the same value as that of a rich child. It also taught us the value of praying for others, which is probably the most valuable of all gifts. Nowadays, I suppose material gifts are presented to teachers on special occasions.
I have never heard him speak of this, but I can tell you that the priest/Benedictine monk who is receiving messages from heaven spoke about it many times most powerfully in his recent book In Sinu Jesu. That is one amazing book that makes you feel so good about being a faithful practicing Catholic.
Vatican II did not have the power to cancel even one iota of what the Church officially taught before. That is not the way the Church works. You know this obviously. I am just upset and fed up with this band that has hijacked the Church. I have not been posting much lately because I would have some very unkind things to say. In fact I will say no more now. I am fuming. Thank you Dolours and everyone else who keeps the forum running with your daily posts. It is an important refuge for the Remnant Church. There are few left.
Let's be honest. Davidtlig has lost his faith and he doesn't even know it just like the late satanic Cardinal Martini of Milan. Just keep following the protestants, liberal ones are all dying surprise surprise.
In fairness, I don't think so. David is probably a more devout Catholic than I will ever be. A couple of years ago, he might have been a kind of role model for many of us. More than likely, the David of that time would have scoffed at any suggestion that the Catholic Church would ever consider some of the practices being permitted and encouraged by Pope Francis. For example, I don't believe that David considers adultery to be acceptable as the most generous response a person can give to God's call to holiness, or as one Cardinal's interpretation of Amoris Laetitia would have us believe, that God would want a person to commit adultery for the sake of the children. Some will take longer than others to wake up and smell the coffee.
What's going on has nothing to do with cultural background or temperament unless Cardinals Marx et al have hitherto unknown Spanish or Latin ancestry and St. Gallen, Switzerland was a Spanish outpost during the papacy of John Paul 11. The CDF has issued a letter to the Bishops outlining what Pope Francis means by neo-Pelagianism and Gnosticism in today's culture: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...c_con_cfaith_doc_20180222_placuit-deo_en.html I see nothing in the letter which would explain the Pope's reasons for dismissing as Pelagians the people who sent him a spiritual bouquet. To be honest, it's hard to see anything in the letter which explains the Pope's fondness for denouncing faithful Catholics as either Gnostics or Pelagians. In fact, his description of Gnosticism in today's culture could apply to one or two of his clique. Given the Pope's track record, time will tell whether the letter is intended to provide cover for some previously prohibited practices in the name of ecumenism and ammunition against anyone who questions them. The concluding paragraph reads: VI. Conclusion: communicating the faith, in expectation of the Savior 15. The knowledge of the fullness of life into which Christ the Savior introduces us propels Christians onward in the mission of announcing to all the joy and light of the Gospel.[24] In this work, Christians must also be prepared to establish a sincere and constructive dialogue with believers of other religions, confident that God can lead “all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way”[25] towards salvation in Christ. While dedicating herself with all of her efforts to evangelization, the Church continues to invoke the definitive coming of the Savior, since it is “in hope that we are saved” (Rom 8:24). The salvation of men and women will be complete only when, after having conquered the last enemy, death (cf. 1 Cor 15:26), we will participate fully in the glory of the risen Jesus, who will bring our relationship with God, with our brothers and sisters, and with all of creation to fullness. Total salvation of the body and of the soul is the final destiny to which God calls all of humanity. Founded in faith, sustained by hope, and working in charity, with the example of Mary, Mother of the Savior and first among the saved, we are certain that “our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself” (Phil 3:20-21).
My gut instinct is to say his thought process might be "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer", but I think it is more complex than that. If memory serves Pope Francis had read the biography of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre several times. He was very impressed with the man. He also was friendly to the SSPX in Argentina helping them out on several occasions. I think this has much less to do with their religious views than the fact that the Pope likes the underdog. In another sense he also has a very broad definition of the Church. A "big tent" approach. The SSPX, the Church in Germany, the Church in Poland, the government run Church in China. They all appear to be just different brands of Catholicism to him. It's not as important what they specifically believe, but that they are a part of a loose confederation of Catholicism. Much like the Anglican Communion. I think this is where he wants to take the Church. Unfortunately we can all see what happened to the Anglican Communion.
