I understand the dilemma, Julia. I think there is a difference between 'damning the Pope' and disagreeing with what he says and does, if these words and deeds conflict with the prior teaching of the Church. The alternative is to 'damn' the Church that preceded him. For my own part, I say the three Hail Mary's a day that he asked for at his election. I agree with you that "we are not created to set ourselves up as judges over what we see going on", in the sense that we don't make any eschatological decisions, but it behooves us to distinguish right from wrong, preferably with a fully-informed conscience. Most of us here have reasonable cathechesis, certainly enough to make decisions on what are basic, fundamental issues and not esoteric high theology. If Christ said 'no adultery' and 'no divorce' and a pope says to tolerate adultery and divorce (and why would anyone now feel prevented from doing so if they can carry on in the Church the same as anyone else and are even being advised by some, on the basis of the Pope's AL and without any objection by the Pope, that it would be a sin to stop the adultery), how can one not object? This is not to damn anybody. It is God's place to decide culpability, if any. It is our role to remain Catholic, no matter how against-the-grain that might appear. We are not used to popes blatantly and wilfully contradicting fundamental articles of Faith, because it hasn't happened for a very long time.
Yes I am afraid this is the bottom line. Which is one of the many reasons why it is so,so,so important to speak out when we have a chance. At least to warn. But for other reasons too. We have not got much time left. Unless Our Lady is going to intervene shortly to break the devil's back. But we can't be sure exactly when this will happen. She is going to break his back of course. But till then we must plan for the Church to rapidly sink...and the False Church to rapidly rise , thanks to our current friends in the Vatican. Events are moving with unbelievable rapidity.
I am always glad to read Fr Hunwicke. God bless him. A hymn from my childhood comes to mind. Anyone remember this? “Oh Mary our mother to you do we come/ in all our afflictions your heart is our home/
So, the real Catholics in China must obey bishops who are not even Catholic (having been excommunicated for being invalidly ordained) simply because the pope says so? What happens when these bishops in turn say that they must be obedient to the communist leaders and their policies? Abortion? Contraception? We know that there cannot even be any valid consecration of the bread and wine by invalidly ordained bishops and priests. Let me ask about Amoris Laetitia being elevated to a magisterial level document. Are we now to fully accept and obey whatever the pope and his supporter cardinals and bishops say about the divorced and remarried and them receiving Holy Communion? Are we to obey the pope and support his plans? In fact, we should I suppose even encourage and propagate his plans? If we don't do this, aren't we already in schism and acting like Protestants? Is this merely a political decision? The pope has been systematically dismantling the Catholic church and its beliefs. Going against our Lord's Commandments. Are we to stand by and pray and do nothing else? Just accede to his evil plans? Is this why our Blessed Mother has warned us so many times about Evil among the church hierarchy? Isn't it true that we are for all intents and purposes already in schism? Because we are not obeying the pope in all matters
While it is our duty to pray for our Pope and all clergy, the following information from a person who spent 30 years inside the Vatican speaks to its evil going on. Unless you read Italian, you will need to google translate the information to English. Very concerning!! https://cronicasdepapafrancisco.com/2018/02/16/da-roma-un-grido-di-dolore/
Thank you for sharing, I read the email in Italian. If what it is stated there is true, it explains well everything that is happening and it is an assurance that none of it comes from God and therefore will fail sooner than later. Also it shows that what we are seeing is only the crust of the iceberg. Below there is much more dark, it is very very dark indeed. In the end everything will come out onto the surface, we just need to pray and wait. FYI, in the email, the writer is a woman, who is a cathecist in Rome, and writes she met with pope emeritus in the Vatican recently and with some hesitation she dared to make this question: Woman: "His Holiness, why all of this, why? What is happening and what should we expect?" BXVI: "It's all in the hands of Jesus and Mary, trust ("si fidi") and let's pray much. Sacrifice yourself for this humanity adrift, for the Church, for the Pope, but it is all in the hands of Christ, trust ("si fidi")..." SI FIDI...
Poor Pope Benedict, I must pray for him and offer up my mass tonight for him. Maybe its as well we don;t know all the dark secrets going on. We might end up throwing ourselves out a window or kicking the cat or something.
I wonder if on the day Pope Emeritus Benedict passes away we will know more. There is that prophecy from antiquity about the white pope and the black pope passing on the same day/night and then the day of great light. If the death of Pope Emeritus Benedict comes and goes without event, then that old prophecy must have not been true.
Yes, the part she shared with Pope Benedict was sad. He suffers more for the Church then we know. He knows what is happening and my sense has been all along he was asked by heaven to resign knowing it was time for the Fatima prophecies to be fulfilled. The woman who wrote the message, from inside the Vatican, has seen much and first hand witnessed the dismantling within of all who remained orthodox.
This article speaks to your point SG, it is worth a read and was linked from the article that Fatima posted. You will have to use the translator to read it but they have there in the article to the right. Your point has merit IMO and not because the body of the Church Faithful has seen fit to leave it. https://cooperatores-veritatis.org/2018/02/16/no-santo-padre-francesco-la-chiesa-non-e-il-popolo/
Read the articles which were linked from that one. They are very good and speak to the underlying teachings and heresies which led to all of this.
I watched this video that I posted above on Saturday. It is very upsetting to hear many of the statements that Cardinal Cupich makes in this speech. As a "joke", he even suggests to the audience that they have a drink before the talk to help with the palatability of his statements. Cardinal Cupich states that because Amoris laetitia received a 2/3 vote from the bishops at the synod it should be fully accepted. I am reminded of the old saying, "If everyone else jumped off a cliff would you?" He also states that everything is being led by the Holy Spirit and I can't help but feel that this is a type of scare tactic that he is using. In the first 20 minutes of the speech the cardinal mentions "true natural marriages", "a holistic view of the world" and "a holistic approach". It all sounds very new age like. At the 47 min. mark Professor John Rist asks his questions which were discussed in the following article, https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/s...-asks-if-popes-paradigm-shift-means-radical-d . In addition, other attendees ask some very good questions including the difficulties in teaching these new ideas (55 min. mark), confession & absolution (1 hr. mark), paradigm shifts (1:02 min. mark), trusting our conscience (1:07 min. mark), the Holy Family (1:10:45 min. mark) and the Last Things (1:15:45 min. mark) which I don't believe the cardinal provided very good answers for. One of the most upsetting statements that the cardinal made was in relation to the Holy Family (1:11 min. mark). Instead of using the Holy Family as a wonderful example of a family who had struggles in life but remained pure and holy he basically mocks the Holy Family, imho. He even goes so far to mention Jesus' "brothers". It is clear that the cardinal is attempting to shame us into submission but in actuality he should ashamed of some of the statements he has made. I will be praying for him and whomever has authorized the content of his speeches. In summary, I think it is hypocritical that the cardinal states that we need to make distinctions but yet they are basically trying to remove distinctions from God's laws. They are also trying to place the "blame" on Pope Paul VI and Second Vatican Council for what we see occurring right now. This is a ridiculous excuse, imho, and thankfully others realize this also. Here is more information about the Von Hugel Institute, the host for this event: https://www.vhi.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/
Padraig, Thank you. I would rather know than not know about something like this. I understand your perspective also though but ultimately I think that we should all force ourselves to watch it so we can really think about how to combat this as best that we can. The video that Brian posted yesterday is good to watch also. It will help us understand the tactics being used, etc. Post #274 http://motheofgod.com/threads/president-trump.11306/page-14#post-201157 , a different topic but the same methods.
Me either. I only made it maybe 10 minutes before I had to stop. I have been praying about this because we will have to endure this in the days to come.
Hi SG, I know you are well meaning and trying your best to live your faith, but there are some fundamental errors in your post here. First off, you are coming at me here as if I’m in love with the Vatican deal with China and support it 100%. That could not be further from the truth. To me it seems a horrible deal and a sell out. That being said we do not have the right to urge others to go in to schism over it. I am not sure if people here truly understand what schism is. It means you are leaving the Church! This is not a light matter. It is a matter of eternal salvation or damnation for the souls we are talking about. One cannot say "I am loyal to the Popes, just not this Pope". It doesn’t work that way. If you say any such thing then you very well may have already left the Church. Only the guidance of a good priest could help discern this. So to answer your voluminous questions I have posted your statements in bold and my answers in regular script: So, the real Catholics in China must obey bishops who are not even Catholic (having been excommunicated for being invalidly ordained) simply because the pope says so? First I have to clarify an error in your question here. The Chinese bishops were not INVALIDLY ordained. They were ILLICITLY ordained. The two are not the same. Invalidly means that the proper procedures were not followed in the ordination process and no ordination took place. This is not the case. What happened here is that the proper procedures were followed, but the bishops were ordained without Rome’s approval, meaning illicitly (illegally). The SSPX bishops were also validly, but illicitly ordained and were excommunicated. That does not mean they are not real bishops. Under certain circumstances a Pope has the legal right to lay down or lift an excommunication on anyone. This happened with the SSPX bishops. Their bishops were excommunicated under Pope St. John Paul II and the excommunication was lifted under Pope Benedict XVI. The Chinese bishops were also excommunicated and now the excommunication has been lifted. Yes this is because the Pope says so. He has that authority. All Popes do. That being said, yes the Chinese people must follow their assigned bishops only in so far as those bishops teach what is Catholic and do not order them to sin or contradict Catholic Teaching. What happens when these bishops in turn say that they must be obedient to the communist leaders and their policies? Abortion? Contraception? The answer to this is obvious. The Chinese people would have to disobey if this were to happen. Our very Pope told people they could use some forms of birth control during the Zika outbreak. He had no power to do this and we should not obey him in that instance either. No Catholic is obliged to follow an order or permission to sin. We all know this and sadly this is not unique to the China situation. We must all now weigh what our local bishops tell us against what the Church teaches. Many bishops are in error, not just in China. In fact it is possible the Chinese bishops may be teaching more Catholic things than are being taught in other countries like Germany. That does not give the German laity the right to go into schism either. A bad bishop is no valid reason for leaving the Church. We know that there cannot even be any valid consecration of the bread and wine by invalidly ordained bishops and priests. See my answer to question number one. These bishops were not invalidly ordained, they were illicitly ordained. They are valid bishops who were ordained without Rome’s approval. So these bishops can consecrate in a true manner just as any other bishop can. Let me ask about Amoris Laetitia being elevated to a magisterial level document. Are we now to fully accept and obey whatever the pope and his supporter cardinals and bishops say about the divorced and remarried and them receiving Holy Communion? I think I have made my stance on this abundantly clear in hundreds of posts. Why you would ask me that I have no idea. I never even mentioned anything about that in my post, nor does it have anything to do with the China situation. No Pope has the power to overturn previous Magisterial teaching. Are we to obey the pope and support his plans? In fact, we should I suppose even encourage and propagate his plans? This is a very vague question. A Pope may have many "plans". Under certain circumstances we are bound as Catholics to follow the Pope if what he teaches does not contradict Catholic Teaching. In areas where he does contradict Catholic Teaching we must not only disobey, but we must do our best to frustrate his plans so they do not take effect if it is within our power. In the real world this means if the Pope asks every Catholic to say the Rosary for the unborn on a specific day we should do it. If he tells us we may use contraception we must not do it. It is very sad we have reached the point where every Catholic must now carefully look at each of the Popes teachings make sure they line up with what has always been taught, but that is the point we are currently at. It is called Chastisement and it is not fun. If we don't do this, aren't we already in schism and acting like Protestants? YES you are. If you are ignoring the Pope when he gives licit commands and denying his authority then yes you may very well be is schism and be outside the Church. I have warned against this many times. Schism is a canonical crime. It is not a regular sin. If one commits the sin and crime of schism one must repent and petition their local bishop to be allowed back into the Church. Is this merely a political decision? It is at base a political agreement between the Vatican state and the government of China that has ramifications over many different areas. The pope has been systematically dismantling the Catholic church and its beliefs. Going against our Lord's Commandments. Are we to stand by and pray and do nothing else? Just accede to his evil plans? No and I have never said this even once and quite frankly I am very offended that you are insinuating that this is what I am saying. I have not now and never have said anything of the sort. Our choices are not do nothing or go into schism. That is a false premise. Is this why our Blessed Mother has warned us so many times about Evil among the church hierarchy? There are a great many things Our Lady has warned us against and they are coming to fruition in this time. It is our duty to try to frustrate these plans within the framework of the Church. Never once has Our Lady said to leave the Church. She gave us a very clear prescription for what we are to do. Schism is not in that prescription. Isn't it true that we are for all intents and purposes already in schism? Because we are not obeying the pope in all matters You may be. I am not. We as Catholics do not have to obey the Pope in all matters. Only under certain conditions. To disobey the Pope under certain conditions is licit and it is our duty. To disavow him and refuse to accept his authority is schismatic and may put you outside of the Church. To properly regain entrance into the Church one must go to a priest and send a petition to the local bishop to lift the automatic excommunication that goes into effect if one goes into schism and is aware that there is an excommunication. SG, it saddens me very much that we are at odds on this very important issue. I agree with much that you say on the forum, but on this point you are in serious error. I do not wish to fight with you, but it is the duty of every Catholic to point out error and fight against it. May Our Lord and Our Lady guide you in this matter.
Don't mind the poor cat. Just throw yourself out a ground floor window, if you need to let off steam.
I highly resent that! I am not in any way saying the Chinese people deserve being mistreated by a malicious government or that they deserve and should submit to torture. Brian I think I deserve an apology. I know you are under great stress right now and I sympathize. I will chalk your post up to that. Placing me on the same par as a torturer is not only slanderous, but it is also deeply hurtful to me that a friend and someone I greatly respect would publicly insinuate that about me. You can disagree with my stance and levy a counterargument against me, but to do this is just beyond words.
Praetorian, you are truly our Guard. I thank you. This is the best and truest post I have encountered since I joined this great community. I wonder if Padraig could make it one of these 'stickies', that we could all refer to in times where we might be getting shaky. SG, please heed this great advice, and also that above from Benedict (he might not be acting Pope currently in this world, but he is always a Pope in Eternity). Remember, if you just stick where you have always been, including staying loyal to the position of the papacy, in asmuch as the latter stays loyal to the eternal Church of Jesus Christ, the Pope himself might enter into schism, but it is a certainty that you won't.
