According to the Gospel, our Father in Heaven can be without any of us who chooses to reject Him because we will spend eternity in Hell and separated from Him. God not needing us has nothing to do with God rejecting us. I suppose that what Pope Francis has said about God needing us to be a God is consistent with his previous statement that souls not going to Heaven are annihilated. Who knew that we would get new Divine revelation to reward the St. Gallen Mafia for getting their man elected? Has your unique insight into what the Pope really means despite what he actually says told you what happens should you choose to worship Satan? Can God still be a God if He cannot be without you then, or will God spend eternity keeping you company in Hell providing, of course, that Pope Francis hasn't already abolished Hell in sympathy with his Jesuit Superior General's decision to airbrush Satan out of Divine Revelation.
Dolours, you objected to me 'assuming' that Pope Francis would, like me, have agreed with all the quotes in 'divinemercy's' post yet you post regularly, as here, on the ridiculous speculative nonsense about Francis and the 'St. Gallen Mafia' But to respond to the substance of your post here, yes, sadly, although God the Father cannot reject His creation, we can reject Him! And because of the free will that God gives us, individual souls do choose to be eternally separated from Him.
I'm afraid, David, that the St. Gallen Mafia was a real group and that then-Cardinal Bergoglio was their choice of Pope when the seat was not vacant. Since his election, his record of rewarding them and the beliefs and practices they promoted would put a politician to shame. So, back to what Pope Francis said about God. At least you agree that individuals do exercise their God-given free will to eternally separate themselves from God. So, if they do that, is Pope Francis saying that God will remove their free will and save them anyway because he can't be a God without them? P.S. When giving your answer, would you please cite where precisely it has been revealed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the second time I've asked you to point me to the passage in Sacred Scripture supporting the Pope's claim that God needs us for Him to be God.
Replies in red I'm afraid, David, that the St. Gallen Mafia was a real group and that then-Cardinal Bergoglio was their choice of Pope when the seat was not vacant. Since his election, his record of rewarding them and the beliefs and practices they promoted would put a politician to shame. I don't doubt the existence of the St Gallen group. I have no reason to doubt that they might have liked Cardinal Bergoglio as pope. The idea of Francis 'rewarding' them for helping his election is ridiculous and the stuff of make-believe. So, back to what Pope Francis said about God. At least you agree that individuals do exercise their God-given free will to eternally separate themselves from God. So, if they do that, is Pope Francis saying that God will remove their free will and save them anyway because he can't be a God without them? Those who reject God totally make a decision that cannot be changed. Forgive me, but where has your "he can't be a God without them" quote come from??
Do you believe that a Cardinal who had been caught on tape laying guilt on a victim of sexual abuse should have been the Pope's special nominee to a Synod on the Family? I don't and nor would anyone other than the Cardinal's St. Gallen group. Cardinal Kasper is another example and there's absolutely no doubt that Cardinal Kasper's long term push to admit active adulterers to Communion has been sanctioned by the Pope in various countries. Here's what I said: "At least you agree that individuals do exercise their God-given free will to eternally separate themselves from God. So, if they do that, is Pope Francis saying that God will remove their free will and save them anyway because he can't be a God without them?" In response to that question, you asked where has my "he can't be a God without them" quote come from. Here, again, are the Pope's words: "But Jesus Christ’s Gospel reveals to us that God cannot be without us: He will never be a God “without man”; it is He who cannot be without us, and this is a great mystery! God cannot be God without man: this is a great mystery!" Now, for the third time, can you please point me to the specific passage in the Gospel of Jesus Christ which reveals that "God cannot be without us"; that "it is He who cannot be without us". Is the location of that revelation in the Gospel another great mystery?
What is Francis trying to tell us in the quote you have posted? Mario has actually responded to this question. The Holy Father is trying to get us to understand the profoundly deep and profoundly loving relationship God has with His creation. God is Love. He somehow couldn't be fully God without sharing His infinite love. Having shared it with man, the Love which created man cannot be reversed. It is in this sense that God cannot be without us. As for finding a specific passage from Scripture that says the same thing, I certainly cannot provide you with what you want because I'm not a Scriptural scholar. As Pope Francis repeats, all this is a mystery. Man is not capable of understanding mysteries fully. But a holy person can lead us into a limited understanding if we are open. Pope Francis is one such holy person.
Well, if a holy person can lead us into a limited understanding of this "mystery" (and I agree - it is indeed mysterious as to why he should choose such sentence structure that one can only conclude heresy) than can you cite a doctor of the Church, early church father, or any great and holy Saint of our Church heritage who expounds on this? Namely, that God NEEDS man to be A God (honestly I hate that the usage of "A" was used before God as well. Compounds the heretical nature of the statement) or is Francis the first person in 2000 years of Church history to stumble upon this mystery and reveal it? (Again, that would also be heretical, as there is no new revelation)
The Catechism summarises how the mystery of the Blessed Trinity was revealed: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm I don't think you'll find anything in there about how God revealed this mystery. Yes, strange that something so important may have been missed by the Church until now. As far as I could see, the Pope was speaking in Italian. Perhaps there's an error in the translation. Anyway, I'm tired arguing about the Pope. Nothing we say will change anything.
Indeed we need to pray a lot, more than ever for the Church which is headed down the road to new age beliefs and apostasy. Claiming that God can't be God without us or that God was somehow incomplete if He hadn't created man is just another step towards claiming that God is just an invention to explain the meaning of good just as the Jesuit Superior General claimed that the early Christians invented Satan to explain evil. It's False Prophet territory and there is evidence on this and other Catholic Forums that the False Prophet won't have to work very hard leading people astray if he holds a position of authority in the Church. If a Pope or a favourite Bishop were to say that the concept of God was introduced to make men focus on being good rather than evil to nourish the god within them, there is no shortage of Catholics who would say "yes, I know what he means even though his language is a little confusing; it's his (insert their favourite) spirituality; it's a development of Doctrine which the holy Pope Francis was leading us to understand when he said that God needs us because He couldn't be a God without man". Here's another reason we need to pray for the Church and that God will send St. Michael to protect us from leaders who don't believe that Satan exists or don't believe that God can manage without us: http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/20...ortion-appointed-to-vatican-pro-life-academy/ The Great Apostasy is just around the corner if it isn't already upon us. All we can do is pray and speak up against heresy but it will take courageous men in the hierarchy to confront it head on. So far, there are only a few such men willing to put their heads above the parapet.
Exactly, I agree 100%. This would not be the first time the Church has faced apostasy and heretical leaders, but considering all the private revelations we've had the last several hundred years my guess is that it is indeed the Great Apostasy that is upon us.
Biggar said: “I would be inclined to draw the line for abortion at 18 weeks after conception, which is roughly about the earliest time when there is some evidence of brain activity, and therefore of consciousness. In terms of maintaining a strong social commitment to preserving human life in hindered forms, and in terms of not becoming too casual about killing human life, we need to draw the line much more conservatively.” Apart from the heretical 18-week cut-off for abortion, the concept of "casual killing" is totally nonsensical. What is its counterpart, "calculated" killing? Yeesh! Lord have Mercy! Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
You are right Dolours. We are knee deep in the storm and knee deep in the great apostasy. After Mass today a friend and I were talking about the very dark tumultuous times we are in and she said " I used to wonder how the Germans all fell for Hitler's lies but now I see it happening around me. ". Yep. The closest analogy I can think of is a smouldering fire beneath the ground spreading by way of roots. Everyone walks around above it doing their daily stuff unaware and then suddenly it bursts into the open and with the blast of oxygen becomes a conflagration. I think we are almost there.
So true about Hitler's moment. Yet, we have people on the MOG who think we are in the era of peace that our Lady of Fatima foretold. Well, we are in part of Fatima's message, which is the moment of the diabolical disorientation.
Just the beginning of the apostasy. When it comes to your home town and everyone else's then you will know we are in the thick of it. I am amazed at how fast it is coming and where much of it is coming form (the Vatican) and hierarchy with no attempt to even recognize it or stop it at the highest level, the chair of Peter.
And it just keeps on coming..................................... As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’ By SHARON OTTERMANJUNE 13, 2017 NEWARK — The word “pilgrimage” usually evokes visions of far-off, exotic places, but for some 100 gay and lesbian Catholics and their families, a pilgrimage to the Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart here on a recent Sunday was more like a homecoming. The doors to the cathedral were opened to them, and they were welcomed personally by the leader of the Archdiocese of Newark, Cardinal Joseph W. Tobin. They were seated on folding chairs at the cathedral’s center, in front of the altar in the towering sanctuary, under the blue-tinted glow of stained glass. “I am Joseph, your brother,” Cardinal Tobin told the group, which included lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Catholics from around New York and the five dioceses in New Jersey. “I am your brother, as a disciple of Jesus. I am your brother, as a sinner who finds mercy with the Lord.” The welcoming of a group of openly gay people to Mass by a leader of Cardinal Tobin’s standing in the Roman Catholic Church in this country would have been unthinkable even five years ago. But Cardinal Tobin, whom Pope Francis appointed to Newark last year, is among a small but growing group of bishops changing how the American church relates to its gay members. They are seeking to be more inclusive and signaling to subordinate priests that they should do the same. “The word I use is ‘welcome,’” Cardinal Tobin said in an interview just before the Mass last month. “These are people that have not felt welcome in other places. My prayer for them is that they do. Today in the Catholic Church, we read a passage that says you have to be able to give a reason for your hope. And I’m praying that this pilgrimage for them, and really for the whole church, is a reason for hope.” Four years ago, Pope Francis shook the Catholic world with his comment about gay priests seeking the Lord: “Who am I to judge?” But it was unclear how his words would affect Catholics seeking acceptance in the pews. After all, the church teaches in its catechism that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered.” Men who “present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called gay culture” are not to become priests, according to Vatican instructions renewed in 2016. Catholic bishops in America have strongly opposed same-sex marriage. More than 100 employees of Catholic institutions across the nation have lost their posts in the past three years for being gay or for marrying a same-sex spouse, according to Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA, an organization of Catholics that advocates equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. But gestures like Cardinal Tobin’s are evidence that Pope Francis’ words are having an impact. Bishops now have latitude to focus on the more inclusive parts of the church’s catechism on homosexuals, such as the call to accept them with “respect, compassion and sensitivity.” They can follow the principle of accompaniment, meaning they can meet people where they are spiritually and build relationships that help them deepen their faith. “It’s the beginning of a dialogue,” said Francis DeBernardo, the executive director of New Ways Ministry, a group that ministers to and is an advocate for gay Catholics. “The church leadership, for the past 40 years, has just been so silent, and unwilling to dialogue, and unwilling to pray with L.G.B.T. Catholics that, even though this isn’t the ultimate step, it’s a first step,” he said of Cardinal Tobin’s welcome. Some church conservatives were wary, however. The problem, they said, was not the idea of welcoming — after all, Jesus welcomed all — but that the public embrace of such a group could be interpreted as the church’s acceptance of a homosexual lifestyle, which church teaching bans. “Everyone is welcome in the church, but no one is accepted as they are,” said the Rev. Robert Gahl, a professor of ethics at Opus Dei’s Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome. “While I am delighted that they went to Mass in the cathedral, I hope that Cardinal Tobin challenged them, as all good shepherds should, to live according to the teachings of Jesus.” But Cardinal Tobin said in an interview last week that to combine his welcome with a criticism would not have been a full welcome at all. “That sounds a little backhanded to me,” he said. “It was appropriate to welcome people to come and pray and call them who they were. And later on, we can talk.” Showing just how sensitive the simple act of welcome could be, he said that after the Mass he had received a fair amount of visceral hate mail from fellow Catholics. Someone was even organizing a letter-writing campaign to call on other bishops to correct him. “And there’s a lot to correct in me, without a doubt,” Cardinal Tobin said. “But not for welcoming people. No.” Individual parishes across the country have for decades had ministries to gay and lesbian Catholics. But more traditional forces prevailed among the church hierarchy, guided by a 1986 Vatican letter written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI, that warned against any acceptance of homosexuality. Gay Catholics became among the most marginalized groups in the church. After the nightclub shooting in Orlando, Fla., last June, for example, only a handful of American bishops made public statements of support for the gay and lesbian community that had been targeted. The Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author, said he found the bishops’ silence revelatory. He has written a book calling for small steps forward that was released on Tuesday, “Building a Bridge: How the Catholic Church and the L.G.B.T. Community Can Enter Into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion and Sensitivity.” In it, he calls on church leaders to show respect by using terms like “gay” and “L.G.B.T.,” instead of phrases like “afflicted with same-sex attraction.” He also argues that to expect a sinless lifestyle from gay Catholics, but not from any other group, is a form of “unjust discrimination” and that gay people should not be fired for marrying a same-sex spouse. “Pretty much everyone’s lifestyle is sinful,” Father Martin said. “Unless the Blessed Mother shows up in the communion line, there is no one sinless in our church.” Across the country, there have been recent glimmers of openness that would not have been possible under previous popes, Mr. DeBernardo said. The diocese of Jefferson City, Mo., for example, said last month that it would permit transgender students in its Catholic schools. In October, Bishop Robert McElroy of San Diego held a diocesan synod on the family that called for improved ministry toward gay and lesbian Catholics. At a New Ways Ministry national conference in April, Bishop John Stowe of Lexington, Ky., said he admired and respected lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people who remained steadfast to the church even though the church had not always been as welcoming. Both Cardinal Tobin and Cardinal Kevin Farrell, the prefect of the Vatican’s dicastery for laity, family and life, who was appointed by Pope Francis, wrote positive blurbs for Father Martin’s book. Cardinal Farrell, who was previously the bishop of Dallas, wrote that he thought it would “help L.G.B.T. Catholics feel more at home in what is, after all, their church.” But Cardinal Tobin’s welcome to Mass on May 21 has been the most significant of such recent gestures, because of the symbolism of a cardinal welcoming a group of gay Catholics, some of whom were married to same-sex spouses, to participate in the Sacrament of Holy Communion at the center of a cathedral, no questions asked.
God our Father does not need us because he is not a creature, he does NOT exist, He IS! We exist, because we need him to be who we are, without him we would not be anything, nothing would exist without Him. So it is not sad to know God does not need us, it is rather a reason for joy and specially gratefulness, because it is to acknowledge we are creatures and He is precisely, a Fatjer that loves us selflessly and infinitely.
Has there ever been a time when the Church has faced so many examples of apostasy in hierarchy all at the same time? So far, we have adultery is good; sodomy not quite as good as adultery but not really bad; repentance doesn't require a purpose of amendment; Protestant ordinations not really invalid; Communion given to Protestants in the Vatican; Satan is an invention; all the foregoing eclipsed by the Pope saying that it's God who cannot be without man.
