This is indeed very disheartening I had a most unpleasant experience yesterday. I attended the only English mass that I could find in Lausanne, Switzerland. It was held at a chapel in a college there. The priest was a Scottish man. Let's call him Father A. In his homily, he spoke badly of a fellow (now deceased) priest who had been in seminary with him. They had obviously not gotten along. The fellow priest had always been annoyed at Father A's smoking habit and would cough very loudly when Father A smoked during meetings. In order to show him up, Father A bought a fake, but realistic looking cigarette, and pulled it out at one of the meetings. The other priest immediately started coughing, and then Father A called him out - saying his cough was as fake as the cigarette. Father A held this priest as an example of people who are outwardly pious and orthodox, but hide deep, dark secrets inside ( he said this priest had been an alcoholic and had died a destitute). This, he was stating in reference to the day's Gospel reading; which he interpreted as 'Jesus always condemned the Pharisees with their outward holiness, but was extremely loving and kind to the sinners for eg. The woman at the well etc'. In actual fact, the Gospel was the one exhorting us to keep the commandments that God has given us: Matthew 5:17-37 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5:17-37&version=NRSVACE He also strongly recommended that everyone get a copy of The Book of Joy: Lasting Happiness in a Changing World - a book by the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Desmond Tutu At the sign of peace, Father A went around shaking hands with many parishioners. Then, while still down there, he started reciting 'Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world.......'. He continued this while making his way back to the altar I really regret going for that mass. I should have just gone to the French mass at the church near me. Today, however, more than made up for it. The priest celebrating morning mass was so reverent throughout mass. After mass there was Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, and the priest stayed behind to hear confessions. My soul felt at peace again after mass and adoration
I was wondering whether or not someone on the forum knows a traditional priest well enough to discuss this with him. I am pretty sure that the priests in my own parish would provide an answer but, as they sometimes come out with stuff that is only vaguely Catholic in their homilies, I wouldn't feel that I could totally rely on their opinions (which would probably be - it doesn't matter what spiritual state the priest is in - which isn't, as you observed Praetorian, the actual question being posed). Does anyone know a priest who could/would provide an authentic answer to this important and basic question?
I just found this....didn't read it yet. You might take a look at it too. All of us can.... http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f060_Intention.htm
According to this article, the intention to 'confect' the bread and wine is essential to the validity of the Mass. I find this very worrying, it means (if true, and I believe that it is) that many Masses are invalid. One former Irish seminarian was told that it was not necessary to believe in Transubstantiation but could accept the Lutheran doctrine of Consubstantiation, which would mean that all those seminarians who decided to accept the latter would never celebrate a valid Mass at all. Of course we also have some priests who have ceased to believe (there is I am told a club of such priests in Dublin who meet regularly for lunch). Such priests are also incapable of confecting the Sacrament. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT MATTER.
This is a huge issue. That is one reason why I think it is best to be careful about where we go to Church. Personally I have found traditional masses to be much more reverent and so they are my first choice. It is one reason why I have been hoping for the SSPX to be reunited with Rome for a long time. One correction from what you wrote above: "Such priests are also incapable of confecting the Sacrament." Not to be too technical but this is not exactly true. All validly ordained priests can perform a valid Mass (as well as the other sacraments). All valid sacraments require the proper matter, form and intention. The priest need not have perfect belief, but he must "intend to do what the church does".
If the priest's intention is to say mass, then it is valid. To believe the priest's sinfulness or lack of faith affects the validity of sacraments is a actually the heresy called donatism. There was also a eucharistic miracle, I believe, at a mass in which the priest doubted the bread and wine actually became the body and blood of Christ. The host actually became bloody visibly. I don't remember the name of that priest or that miracle, but I know it happened. http://www.theopedia.com/Donatism I am not a theologian, but this seems to be an area in which we are not guaranteed to come to the right conclusion concerning exactly what the priest's intention constitutes. But the Church is guaranteed to come to the right conclusion...
when I say "we are not guaranteed" I mean we as individual lay Catholics. Only the magisterium has that guarantee, so it is best to follow the Church and be weary of falling into the heresy of donatism.
His intention must be "to do what the church does". It does not matter if his opinion of what the church does is faulty, if he intends to do what the church does, it is a valid mass.
This is mostly correct. He also needs to say the consecration correctly and use the proper kinds of bread and wine. Matter, form and intention are all needed for any valid sacrament. This is why even an atheist can baptize someone. They just need to intend to do what the Church does, use water properly, and say the proper words, etc.
I am quoting my own post here just so as to be very clear. As Dawn brings to light in her posts above this is a very confusing topic and we want to avoid the heresy of Donatism. A priest does not need to be in a state of grace to consecrate validly. He does also not need to believe perfectly. He can be schismatic, a heretic, etc. What he does need is the proper matter, form and intention. The intention needs to be to "do what the Church does."
My original point was essentially this: If a priest does not believe in the Real Presence (or is an atheist - rather than someone who might harbour doubts) he is clearly incapable of intending to 'confect' the bread and wine because he does not believe that ANYONE can do so (and intention is apparently essential to the validity of the consecration). The 30% of the priests in the German diocese who say that they do not believe in the Real Presence, surely cannot intend to confect since they believe it to be impossible. I am quite happy to accept that a priest in gross sin is capable of validly saying Mass but if he is an unbeliever, then we are in totally different territory. I am going to seek a definitive answer from a trustworthy source.
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE EARS TO HEAR< OUR BLESSED MOTHER IS STILL PLEADING TO US Pedro Regis messages form the Blessed Mother 4427 - Message of Our Lady Queen of Peace, February 10, 2017 Dear children, testify to Jesus before men and you will be great in the Eyes of the Father. The day will come when many who are fervent in faith will be deceived and led into error. False teachings will lead men to doubt dogmas and there will be a great crisis of faith. Many chosen to defend the truth will act like Pilate: they will see the injustices practised against My Son Jesus and, for fear of losing what passes, they will wash their hands. The traitors to faith will unite and change many truths. I suffer for what comes to you. Bend your knees in prayer. This is the time of sorrows for the righteous. Love and defend the truth. Do not forget the lessons of the past, for they will be what enables you to walk in the truth. Courage. Stay with Jesus. Always seek Him in the Eucharist and let yourselves be led by Him through His Gospel. Go forward on the way that I have pointed out to you. This is the message I give you today in the name of the Most Holy Trinity. Thank you for having allowed Me to gather you here once more. I bless you, in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Be at peace. 4428 - Message of Our Lady Queen of Peace, February 11, 2017 Dear children, I am your Sorrowful Mother. I suffer because of your sufferings and I ask you to keep the flame of your faith alight. After the cross will come the victory. In the Great Spiritual Battle, Victory will be for the Lord and His Chosen Ones. Do not stray from the truth. Encourage one another and assume your true role as Christians. I have come from Heaven to help you, but I cannot force you. Listen to Me. Be meek towards My Appeals. Do not let yourselves be deceived by the devil's innovations. Be of the Lord. Be faithful to the True Magisterium of the Church of My Jesus. Those who remain faithful will receive a great reward from the Lord. Courage. I need each of you. There will be a great war and the faithful soldiers will fight in defense of the truth. Bend your knees in prayer. I will pray to My Jesus for you. Go forward without fear. This is the message I give you today in the name of the Most Holy Trinity. Thank you for having allowed Me to gather you here once more. I bless you, in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Be at peace.
Well, I went to Adoration today, and afterwards went to the market and got some gas in the car. As I was standing outside, there were many jets flying overhead in formation, one wave of 4 jets after another, at least three or four groupings...I lost count as I was driving home out of their range...They were flying south from the area of Joint Base Andrews and could have been flying to Patuxent River Naval Air Base further south of us. I don't know the destination but more than likely they came from Andrews. Just made me wonder. I am going to post Awesome God video and it is so moving. I was going to wait until Lent but need it now. We are not being critical of the Holy Father in a bad way, but those of us who have been nurtured by the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church know how the Faith should be....it has taken many decades to water down the liturgies and devotions, and pews which used to be filled to standing room only are now lying empty in churches that have been closed down. Just sayin'. The order formed by St.Katherine Drexel is so small now that they want to sell the school property that she founded, possibly for development. They are also selling the Mother House.
I was trying to upload the Awesome God video and am not savvy enough to do that. Sad. But still. Maybe I will get the knack of it soon.
I am so lame!!!! One of these days I will upload it. It is awesome. Maybe on Sunday, my son can embed it for me.
Well, I got the file uploaded, click on the link, it is the first one, the most emotional video I have seen in a long time. Watching it changed my life today. God bless all.
