"Pharisees," "Schismatic," "Attackers/Haters," "Prodigal Son's Elder Brother," "Unmerciful," etc.

It would seem that one recently-appointed moderator has taken it upon himself to decide what may and what may not be posted on this forum.

I have found Brian's posts informative and am largely in agreement with his views. But.... this is a forum, and a place where debate should be allowed. Where there has been such discussion I've often learned exactly why I support the Church's position and indeed why certain matters are gravely troubling. Being a moderator is not an easy task and I'm glad I don't have to do it. For example, when does 'concern for souls' become an excuse for bullying? Remember that we don't see each other face to face. We don't really know each other at all. I would be sorry to see this place become what I believe the Americans call a peanut gallery, or an echo chamber.

When Pope Benedict was asked why he had chosen to surround himself with some who did not support his theological viewpoint, he said that it is important to remember that there are other viewpoints. We at MOG often wish the current Pope would do the same. I'm not saying all opinions are equal, but we need to give some slack to those people of goodwill who may disagree with the majority of us from time to time.

 

Thank you Praetorian. I am in great agony over what they are doing to my Church and I've allowed it to affect how I post, and for that I am sorry.

I don't give a hoot about the personal insults. I only care that good people are being deceived and lead astray and that this is endangering their immortal souls. That frankly makes me very angry.

 

You are welcome Brian.
This is a time of trial for all of us and it is only going to get worse.

I understand how you feel.
I also understand how Border Collie and Fatima Pilgrim feel.
I don't think any of you are incorrect.
This is a clashing of styles I think.
We are brothers and sisters here.
Let us dialogue with each other rather than attack.
That is what Our Lord would want.

 

There's a difference between free debate and the use of purposely insulting and denigrating words and phrases, especially against Cardinal Burke et al. Again, What I said was fairly clear and succinct - and fairly limited:

Accusations of "Pharisees," "Schismatics," "Attackers/Haters," "Prodigal Son's Elder Brothers," "Unmerciful," etc. against the 4 Cardinals who published the 5 Dubia or MOG members defending the Faith or resisting this pope's heterodox agenda
​

I despise lies and dishonesty, especially when it's freely posted without moderation or correction on a Catholic site.

It was the Jews who were pushing for divorce who were the Pharisees, not Jesus. Likewise today. To say otherwise is slander and propaganda serving an evil agenda.

 

Praetorian, it was not my intention to hurt Briank or anyone else in my post, and if I have I apologise.

I said he appeared to lack love, but you're right I don't know him.

I have read the urgent call of the cross as he recommended and have to admit I know a little more about him now. I still don't know him though. But I don't agree that you can generalise in saying he has suffered more than most on here. Who can say? Pain is pain and what appears a lot to one person may seem little to another and vice versa. Many members have suffered and are suffering greatly as I write and are offering their sufferings for the Church and all.

But one thing I do know and has been reiterated by my spiritual director is that if you ask God for extra suffering he will give it to you, and that can be very tough, especially when it comes at you in a totally unexpected way, perhaps years later, you might even have forgotten your prayer of asking for it.

No doubt Briank will read this, so once again I am sorry if my post offended you.

 

You are a good man BC
Thank you.
Just to clarify. In my post I never said Brian has suffered more than most here.
I would never make that assumption.
I know you have suffered greatly and my prayers are with you.

 

Brian wrote "It was the Jews who were pushing for divorce who were the Pharisees, not Jesus. Likewise today. To say otherwise is slander and propaganda serving an evil agenda."

I think that says it all.

 

And this comment is probably full of LOVE, I agree that anyone should give his opinion, this is the goal of a Forum but I can't understand how a Catholic could judge another Catholic of a lack of Love, this is a lack of Charity at best and a shame at worst.

John 15:12

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

 

Y'know, Border Collie, it's quite possible that both the Holy Spirit and the demons are involved in either side of the Pope Francis debate. People overly defensive of Pope Francis see themselves as defending the Papacy and the Church. Those of us who are disillusioned and distrustful of Pope Francis also believe that we are defending the Papacy and the Church.

There has been nastiness on both sides (and I plead guilty). Brian has adopted a very strong position on this argument from the start. At least he has been consistent and straightforward about it. It took me longer to fully face up to the crisis that I believe has been visited on the Church by Pope Francis and now I fully accept that Brian was warning us all of what was to come. Some of those with a favourable view of the Pope are well capable of stooping to gutter levels to push their point of view. For example, there was rather a nasty innuendo recently that Conservative or Traditionalist (can't remember the precise word) Catholics are more inclined to be paedophiles. I don't recall a whole lot of calls for discretion or warnings to beware of evil people pulling strings after reading that comment.

Anyway, no matter how nasty we get, we all share a love and commitment to Jesus, the Blessed Mother and the Church. Whether we turn out to be right or wrong about this crisis, at least when we face God on judgement day, none of us can be accused of having been lukewarm.

Hope you are getting some relief from the terrible pain you have been suffering. God bless.

 

I should not support you in Public Brian, I am sorry, hoping that it did not open the cage to the wolves, stay strong.

 

Not at all. This stuff needs to be worked out; if we can't move past this nonsense there's not much point in this forum because it won't be able to fulfill its role in the chastisement.

 

What is that role Brian?

 

@Mario already answered your question, on another thread, so I'll simply repost it here:

Brian is right. Souls are at stake.

There is an image in the Book of Revelation described as the Mark of the Beast. In a certain sense, those of us who believe in a soon-to-occur Warning, see a similar "image." Whether the Mark or the Warning, a virtually irreversible decision will be asked of us. Souls are at stake.

There is a rapid divide taking place in the Church which we should actually rejoice in, because I believe it will lead to two choices: For God and His Church or for satan and the antiChurch. A thread was even begun reflecting this rapid, surreal pace, Things Are Moving Real Fast. Souls are at stake.

This is why we gather here. We perceive an increasing need to pray, to fast, to seek mutual support, and to rally around the truth. Much of the current tension revolves around the sanctity of marriage and how the reality of that truth intersects the Eucharist. Souls are at stake.

This love for souls is why Brian has taken the stand he has. I will have to change one of your lines in your last post, Padraig: So long as we are all genuinely striving to discover the truth I do not think of it as a problem but a path to a DECISION.

And that DECISION will be sooner than we think. So if you're a "BrianK" or a "Fallen Saint" let us pray that all of us here end up on the side of God and His Church.

Safe in the Barque of Peter!​

It's decision time. Its role is to help us make the right decision. Souls are at stake.

 

I just have to say that I appreciate Brian's posts because he is blunt, to-the-point and backs up his assertions with evidence. I have never felt a lack of love in his posts but more a sense of urgency that our eyes be opened. I fall into his camp more often than not but still appreciate charitable opposing views from FS, David and others. When posts devolve into name-calling then the arguments are weakened in my opinion.

 

charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.

Love God/Truth above all things.

True love is not a squishy, weepy feeling. It is sacrificing for others, caring more for their souls than all else. Jesus taught us HOW to love.

 

From another thread, the crux of the matter:

Apparently Our Lord is fond of the "legal language" that this pope finds so undesirable. In fact the unanimous opinion of 2000 years of Church teaching agrees with Our Lord, not this pope. If you convince us this pope is correct, you convince us the Church has been wrong for 2000 years, as was Our Lord, and therefore we believe in vain, for Jesus was a liar.

19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed themthere.

3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”​

 

I was having a little chat with the good Lord this morning after communion, and I felt him remind me once again how insignificant I am, that without His grace and mercy I would cease to exist and how quickly I am prone to forget this and behave as if I were a "somebody".

Then I come home and read your posts...

Thank you both for allowing the Lord to work through you.

BC

 

But we can call our Holy Father whatever name we wish here it seems. It seems to me that old Stan is happy here. Lets crucify the Holy Father and then get everyone against him and get him killed. That will pave the way for old Stan to provide the false prophet to set up as the new pope. I don't agree with all that Pope Francis says but I feel it is too soon to declare a scishm. Why not abolish name calling of everyone! We are all Pharisees to some degree anyway. I have had rounds myself with spiritual pride and I am very cautious of getting caught in that again. BrianK your whole attitude and conversations worry me. I pray for you because as leaders of this forum you influence many many souls. May God bless you.

 

As John the Baptist yelled out: "REPENT! The Kingdom of God is at hand" and the people flocked to him! The people came to repent and be baptized, or some like the Pharisees came to judge him and see what he was about. I think most devout Catholics are busy repenting on a daily basis in their own lives, and try to not only LIVE the Truth, but PROCLAIM the Truth so that others can repent and be saved. It's getting really hard to talk to my friends and cousins who are living in adultery about sin and repentance, because now they just say, "well, the Church is changing it's ideas on that." It's very discouraging.

 

BC, this post was short but powerful. Don't be too hard on yourself. You are a good man. I have been here a couple of years and I think that is the first time I have ever seen you write something harsh. I have done much worse as have many here. No one is perfect. This last post of yours is a good example of how we should all be thinking. I think in the heat of discussion sometimes we forget the goal is to become saints and make it to heaven. Thank you for reminding us.