So the abolition of marriage tribunals will be the next of the Francis reforms? We will be told that all his predecessors were wrong to treat the dissolution of even a single marriage as a matter of grave concern to the entire Church. Which of his atheist friends will he choose to make that announcement to the world so that people like you can whine about the media misrepresenting him as his friends start the whispering campaign against anyone who doesn't welcome the reform? Open Communion will be the end result of this mess. Cardinal Kasper is already arguing for non-Catholics to be given Communion simply because they are married to Catholics. The Pope has already told a Lutheran woman in such a marriage to, effectively, decide for herself whether she should receive Communion. Lutherans have been given Communion in the Vatican. We can't judge the hearts of people living openly in homosexual unions, so they will be invited to receive without any commitment to amend their lives. The Pope has said that people in common law marriages have real, grace giving marriages while the majority of Catholic marriages are invalid, so fornication is no longer an impediment to receiving Communion. In short, it is no longer necessary for people to profess Catholic beliefs in words and deeds before receiving Communion. We're talking here about the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus - the source and summit of our faith. 2000 years of Church teaching on what is required to receive that precious gift worthily is thrown on the scrapheap because this Pope and some Cardinals have decided that Jesus wasn't merciful enough when defining adultery? All those efforts to guard against sacrilege are rendered null and void because this Pope and his friends have decided that their predecessors were too rigid and legalist when interpreting St. Paul's admonition about eating and drinking unworthily? And the prelates who dare to ask questions about it are being accused of causing schism while the real schism is one of faitrh - we either believe what the Church has always believed or we don't. No Pope in the history of the Church has so openly contradicted the teaching of Christ on marriage and Church teaching on sexual morality. No Pope in the history of the Church has belittled the Eucharist like this Pope. None of the elect since Judas has emphasised giving to the poor over giving due recognition to the Divinity of Jesus in the Eucharist. There's more than one elephant in the room. The elephant everyone would have us ignore is the one telling us that the Pope and his inner circle don't believe in the Real Presence. If they did, they would make a better effort to protect it from sacrilege.
So what I keep hearing from the modernists here is that "Christ's teachings are too hard" and "Let's be realistic, people have gotten themselves into a mess with too many divorces so let's just say it isn't a sin." Perhaps pornography isn't a sin anymore either since it is so rampant. Or maybe abortion isn't either because people really aren't aware of what they are doing anyway because of the amount of mental anguish. The answer isn't to move the goal post people. This actually HURTS the people who are tying to live according to God's law. Where is the mercy for the spouse and children from the first REAL sacramental marriage who have been left behind? The first spouse may very well be trying to live a celibate life according to Church teaching. How is it merciful to the woman and her kids sitting in the pew suffering the cross of loneliness and abandonment when they see their father/spouse marching up to Holy Communion with their new "family?" Why is the first REAL sacramental marriage almost avoided in the conversation? Answer me that all of you so very, very merciful modernists. These are REAL people too, yet you ignore the pain this causes them.
An objective mortal sin is a knowingly chosen act of the human person, an act which is objectively gravely immoral. An actual mortal sin is an objective mortal sin which is committed with full knowledge of its grave immorality and full deliberation (full freedom of choice). So a person who divorces his wife and marries another is guilty of an objective mortal sin (grave sin). It is an actual mortal sin if that person remarried with full knowledge and full deliberation of the immorality of the act. Only actual mortal sin deprives the soul of the state of grace.
This is a very real problem. There is no longer immorality only 'situational ethics'. Liberals always have someone else to blame and never take personal responsibility for personal decisions and actions.
I think I know what is or isn't a mortal sin, garabandal. I was merely pointing out that in the case presented to Pope Benedict, mortal sin was not involved. Here are the points put to Benedict to which he responded with the quote I put in my post: MARIA MARTA: Holy Father, in our country, just as in the rest of the world, marriage breakdowns are continually increasing. My name is Maria Marta and this is Manoel Angelo. We have been married for 34 years and we are now grandparents. As a doctor and a family psychotherapist, we meet a great many families and we notice that couples in difficulties are finding it harder and harder to forgive and to accept forgiveness. We often encounter the desire and the will to establish a new partnership, something lasting, for the benefit of the children born from this second union. MANOEL ANGELO: Some of these remarried couples would like to be reconciled with the Church, but when they see that they are refused the sacraments they are greatly discouraged. They feel excluded, marked by a judgement against which no appeal is possible. These sufferings cause deep hurt to those involved. Their wounds also afflict the world and they become our wounds, the wounds of the whole human race. Holy Father we know that the Church cares deeply about these situations and these people. What can we say to them and what signs of hope can we offer them? http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedi...ben-xvi_spe_20120602_festa-testimonianze.html
Oh dear, Dolours, you are clearly unhappy with things at the moment.... I would just like to correct one thing you suggest of me, that I would 'whine' about the media misrepresenting Pope Francis. No, not I. In fact the reporting of Pope Francis by the media is like spring water compared with the almost constant misrepresentation he gets on this forum.
Jesus is our hope and salvation. The Cross is His sign of hope and He told us to take up our cross and follow Him to Heaven. Telling people that they can discard their cross in this life and expect to enter Heaven by the wide path is more about cruelty than mercy.
Me, me, me...just like the apostles. Let ME sit next to you in heaven. The beauty of Christianity is that as knowledge of God grows...you become spiritually aware. Praetorian...you have a very strong spirituality. As it grows, you have greater knowledge of God. But you seem to be saying...if i have to carry the cross, everyone else should too . Your cross is great because you found God. And that is only because of the GRACE from God. In TRUE spiritual enlightenment...people have a greater understanding of compassion because they understand how sinful they actually are. We should all be banished. All of us, including Brian, will be devastated when we see all our sins. It will even be worst to see what damage those sins have caused. I understand your point of view. But you are spiritually enlightened. I hate to say it but the world is in a cloud of darkness. There are a few saints that are trying to pull the last few souls into the light. If we follow the mob and pitchforks...where does that leave us. No one goes to heaven...because no one deserves heaven. I get way too involved in these discussions. And, i take them way too personal. Spirituality is not a game. If i hear that Our Holy Father is teaching heresy from Fr. Sarah or from Fr. Tom (Norbinetines). Then i would have to really sit down and listen. But from Cardinals that have lost powerful positions from the Vatican (Prestige and Power). And using there Red Hats in a public forum to cause division. Leaves me a little wary of the whole situation.
The fact that "Smudger" thinks it is in any way possible for active homosexuals to "discern" in the confessional that they may be able to continue their sin and receive Holy Communion tells us all we need to know about him. Homosexuality is one of the sins that cries to heaven for vengeance. This is not now and has never been Catholic teaching or the teaching of Christ. He picked a very apt name in picking "Smudger". All modernists want to blur the lines around sin so much that they are unrecognizable anymore. Blurring the lines around sin is a favorite tactic of the greatest enemy of the Church. I would like to see him walk into the confessional with Padre Pio and try to "discern" being an active homosexual and receiving Holy Communion with him.
David, I think all of us on this forum are trying our best to understand what is the current position of the Church today as it regards divorce, remarriage and the reception of communion. All of us also know this teaching is a matter of church doctrine, not discipline. We should also know that a doctrine is unchangeable, whereas disciplines can and do change. So my question to you on the following scripture is, has Pope Francis teaching taken us back to the teachings of Moses? And if so, does he have that authority to revert back to pre-Christian teaching? Matthew 19: [1] And it came to pass when Jesus had ended these words, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judea, beyond Jordan. [2] And great multitudes followed him: and he healed them there. [3] And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? [4] Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: [5] For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. [6] Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. [7] They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? [8] He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.
Its very difficult to debate with people who twist and manipulate the truth of what has been said. Anybody who know s me in real life would laugh at you who think I am a modernist. I am with the pope now and the popes of the past. Sr Lucia of Fatima said those who are not with the pope are not with God. Wake up and be rid of this pride!
Talking to these people is like trying to hold water in your hands. I admire you all for trying but...
So the better way is to let every pastor consult with the divorced and remarried to determine if they can receive communion? We know the end result to this. Everyone will find Father Progressive who will grant their wishes. We know there are many Cardinals, Bishops and Priests who are already doing this.
Sister Lucia also said, "the last battle between God and Satan would be on family and marriage". Are those who are upholding the teachings of Jesus and 2000 years of clear teaching on divorce and remarriage working for God or Satan?
Fatima, your error is in your second sentence - "All of us also know this teaching is a matter of church doctrine, not discipline." No, 'all of us' know no such thing. The matter is clearly (to me, the Pope and hopefully most of the clergy) a matter of discipline. It is because of this difference of view between Pope Francis supporters and his critics that there seems no prospect of a common understanding of the whole matter.
Let's cut to the chase Smudger: is there or is there not a pathway for the divorced and remarried (who refuse to live as brother and sister) to recieve Holy Communion?
