The Church has a tribunal that determines whether a marriage was valid or not in the eye's of God. If not, it is annulled. If the marriage was valid, then divorce and remarriage is not permitted by God himself, as they would be in adultery by the direct words of Jesus himself.
Wrong, it is under the authority of scripture and insofar as a Pope adheres to scripture and the unchanging doctrines of the faith he is to be listened to. The problem is, as we all know, is that Pope Francis is dabbling with church doctrine in not being specific as our last popes have been in regards to the divorce and remarried receiving the body of Christ in Eucharist.
Actually by this point I thought, I honestly thought the forum would have emptied and myself and my two dogs have been the only ones still in here. I very much under estimated the Sensus Fidelium, the sense of the truth of the Faithful. Or to put it another way Catholics generally have been smelling a big rat in the Vatican and so when they see it right out in the open there are no surprises. This is a source of great hope to me. I do not blame people for not yet being convinced, these are very difficult times. Anyhow I am delighted and full of hope. The devil will not have the last say in all this, you may be sure. Reminds of Washington crossing the Delaware , the fight back has started.
One does not need a tribunal to know what Jesus said on divorce and remarried. A tribunal is a merely a system put into place in order to determine if the person was married in the eye's of God or not, based on certain objective criteria.
Scripture, Tradition and the papal Magisterium. Those are the three ways God allows us to know the truth. Notice papal magisterium. That includes Pope francis. Dont fall into the trap of setting up your own magisterium. That's what Luther did. Fatima, Jesus asks you to be obedient to the Pope-his chosen representative and he is Francis.
If there is a schism, it wont be because of Pope Francis, rather those who through pride think they know better. Jesus will never abandon the Church and its members to think it cant trust the teaching authority of the Pope.
For my part, the vagueness of the points that the Cardinal's brought up the document AI, has always been concerning, lest we become a protestant church that picks and chooses what they want to take from Scripture. However, I will continue to let Jesus work through his Church in order settle this dispute. My fear is, it may not get settled until the Warning.
Well Our Lady has promised, 'In the End my Immaculate Heart will Triumph' , so the devil , both within the Church and without will loose, What else can we ask for? I am happy, full of peace and hope. Half the battle is and always has been to call the devil out for what he is. He likes to lurk in the shadows.
Padraig even if we don't agree with you, or not yet convinced, we understand the concern. If some Cardinals such as Burke or Sarah came out it would get me to consider it more. But you're not getting rid of us that easily. I think most of us are always seeking the truth which is what originally brought us here.
Come on smudger. The Church teachings for 2000 years have been crystal clear on divorce and remarriage. Only a person who is not educated in the faith would not know this. This is all the good Cardinal's are requesting from Pope Francis is whether his position on divorce and remarried receiving communion is in concert with what is clear in the previous church documents. A simple Yes or No is all it would take and we can all move on. Pride is not giving a simple answer!
Dates and details of these final battles. Well you asked what else we can ask for. Doesn't hurt to ask
No, it's the foundation of the debate. That is what the Cardinals are debating. The sin is easy to understand.
We will not desert you Padraig. Personally I think we have to wait for the Cardinals to work through the process, it is not up to us to make proclamations such as happened yesterday. That being said, we are all confused here. None of us here has the full truth. We are all searching in these confusing times. I will make a prediction: In the years to come this forum will gain in numbers not diminish. As things get worse and worse in the Church and the world people will be looking for answers. This forum is a good place for Catholics of different viewpoints to come together and hash things out. To sort through the confusion and hopefully find the truth. As far as I know it is the only one like it on the net. There are many forums but they are usually either hard "left" or hard "right". I can honestly say I learn things even from those members who have extremely different viewpoints than my own. I might even realize I am wrong about something now and then
All of us here have compassion for those divorced. We all have family members or friends in this situation. In our world of instant and gratification it is all too easy to fall and make real mistakes. But all decisions have consequences. When baptised Catholics enter into the sacrament of matrimony they make a promise to God in front of witnesses that they commit to each other for life. I hear the liberal crowd hiss - but they may not have full cognizance of the decision that they make! Really? In a court of law if one is called to give evidence then one swears to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Everyone knows what this means. And people know the consequences of not telling the truth - they can be convicted of perjury. I never have heard a judges say that court proceedings were invalid because the witnesses did not understand the oath part!! Now if the consequences of failing to keep an oath in a human (lower) court is punishable how much more serious is the oath that one swears before Almighty God (higher) in His presence in a Church? And here lies the crux of the matter. Marriage is not a man-made institution but a God-made one. God immediately honours the promises made and the sacrament of marriage by imparting His grace and supernatural life. The two become one. There is a new creation - one flesh. What God has joined together man cannot separate. Christ was clear that the one who divorces his wife and marries commits adultery. The disciples were so shocked they said it would be better not to get married! Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. The marriage debate in the Church is not really about mercy. Because the Church has always been merciful with doors wide open to sinners -- that is why I am a Catholic who still uses the confessional! Is not the confessional the tribunal of mercy? For the contrite a refuge and sanctuary of grace. For the truly contrite there is always a solution usually involving sacrifice. For those who believe they were in 'invalid. marriages for whatever reason -- in the past there was a not so easy access to the marriage tribunals. In recent times this process has been streamlined and much easier to get an annulment than ever before. But the progressives are not content with this. Their agenda is much more radical. The Church is awash with progressives (some laity, some bishops and some cardinals) who are more interested in the ways of the world than with the ways of Christ. Hence we have bishop vs bishop and cardinal vs cardinal. They simply want to ignore the words and teaching of Christ. Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." (John 8v47).
Actually the traditional formulation is as follows: The term "deposit of faith" (Latin: fidei depositum) refers to the entirety of Jesus Christ's revelation, and according to Roman Catholic theology is passed to successive generations in two different but equal forms, sacred scripture (the Bible) and sacred tradition (through the Roman Magisterium). The modern addition of "papal magisterium" to "Scripture and Tradition" is unnecessary because it's redundant; any acts of the "magisterium" which are not consistent with "Scripture and Tradition" are simply not magisterial. The attempts to add "living magisterium" (prior to Pope Francis) and "papal magisterium" under this current pope are thinly disguised attempts to introduce and justify new false teachings.
Brian, you may think its unnecesarry, but the Catechism clearly states: " The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. I ask you this, if it wasnt for the papal magiesterium, where would the marian dogmas of Immaculate Conception and Assumption be? Nobody else on earth has the authority to raise a doctrine to the state of dogma. You seems to be suggesting that Jesus' commission of Peter was a bit pointless!
If a divorced and remarried couple is smart enough and savvy enough to be concerned with finding a way to rationalize sacriligious Communion, then they are certainly conscious enough to know that they are living in a state of mortal sin. Your Jedi mind tricks are weak, smudger.
