Discerning Apparitions

Interesting concept

 

Are you sure on this Harper? Holy Love have an office at Knock Shrine and as far as I know were included the recent film about Knock, "Strange Occurrences in a Small Irish Village."

 

Hi Border Collie,

Here's an article on it: http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=26007

I was wrong about altering the words of the Rosary: they have special Rosary beads. I remember some time back a woman from my parish went to Holy Love and came back and tried to take over the Rosary before daily Mass. She had the beads and would hand them out. She added her own words to the Rosary, but I guess that was her own thing.

At any rate, she later went from parish to parish trying to promote the "Pro-Life Rosary." She won some converts, even though one Rosary group put out printed sheets with the bishop's declaration. Anyway... shows you the bad fruit of ignoring church teaching in favor of false visionaries. (Some people simply stopped coming for the rosary to get away from her.)



The Controversy Surrounding the Pro-Life Rosary
Posted on December 4, 2013 by SBrinkmann


ML writes: “Have you heard of the rosary of the unborn? I have come across a website that sells special rosaries with teardrop hail Mary’s with a baby inside. The website has a section of heavens words on abortion. were these words spoken to?”


This is a great question!

The Rosary of the Unborn is a rosary made of hollow beads containing a tiny plastic embryo to symbolize the babies killed in abortion. It is being promoted by Holy Love Ministries in Elyria, Ohio, where an alleged seer named Maureen Sweeney-Kyle claims to be receiving apparitions of Jesus, the Blessed Mother, and various saints.

Sweeney-Kyle said she was praying the Rosary of the Unborn on July 2, 2001, when Our Lady appeared and gave her this message: “I see you are using the new Rosary of the Unborn. I affirm to you, my daughter, that each Hail Mary prayed from a loving heart will rescue one of these innocent lives from death by abortion. …” Maureen asks: “Blessed Mother, do you mean any Hail Mary or just one prayed on the Rosary of the Unborn?” Blessed Mother: “This is a special grace attached to this particular rosary.”

Ever since then, Holy Love Ministries has been promoting the rosaries.

The problem is that Sweeney-Kyle’s activities and alleged messages from Mary, Jesus and the Saints, do not have Church approval.

In fact, Bishop Richard Lennon of the Diocese of Cleveland issued a pronouncement on these apparitions in 2009 in which he stated that Sweeney-Kyle’s apparitions and locutions are not supernatural in origin.

“I, Richard G. Lennon, hereby declare that the alleged apparitions and locutions to Maureen Sweeney-Kyle are not supernatural in origin,” the decree pronounces. “I forbid members of the clergy of any jurisdiction to celebrate the sacraments on the site of Holy Love Ministries. I admonish the faithful of the Diocese of Cleveland to cease gathering for any religious, liturgical, spiritual or devotional purpose on the site of Holy Love Ministries.”

According to the Pro-Life Action League, Holy Love Ministries responded to this pronouncement by publishing a statement in which they claim Bishop Lennon was simply voicing his opinion and that his declaration was not binding on the faithful. (Holy Love has since scrubbed this response from their website – but it can be found here, courtesy of the Pro Life Action League.)

They went even further to suggest that Jesus, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Catherine of Siena all appeared to lend their support to Holy Love’s position against Bishop Lennon. To even suggest that Jesus and the saints would encourage disobedience to the Church is one of the most obvious signs that whatever is going on in Elyria is not authentic.

Since that time, Holy Love Ministries has declared itself to be “ecumenical” which many believe was done to enable them to escape the Church’s purview.

Praying the Rosary is a powerful enough weapon to wield in the face of the continuing scourge of abortion in our world. There is no need to buy any special kind of beads, especially not those whose proceeds will go toward a supporting a ministry that has exhibited open defiance of the Church.

 

Nah, he is not hysterical. He is Crew Dog

 

Actually, Border Collie, your bringing up the Holy Love people made me think about cults and how they start.

I'll bet people first came to hear Maureen Sweeney-Kyle out of curiosity. Many of the curious were probably Catholics who had a special affection for the Blessed Mother, since Sweeney-Kyle claimed. Others might have been pro-life and felt oppressed by the anti-life culture around them -- happy to find a community that was devoted to a cause dear to their hearts. Still others wanted inside information from heaven: What's going to happen in the world? What can I do? Sweeney-Kyle provided answers. That's appealing to confused Catholics and those, again, who feel depressed and/or powerless about the terrible state of secular culture. Something they can do! Say the Pro-Life Rosary and with each special Hail Mary stop an abortion!!

Sweeney-Kyle must have attracted priests and religious to her site, since Bishop Lennon had to ban any religious services from being held there. Sweeney-Kyle probably had sympathetic followers in the Catholic press. I remember some years ago Deacon Greg Kandra posted a positive piece on Holy Love on his blog! Kandra's claim to fame was that he'd been at CBS News before taking over communications for the Diocese of Brooklyn and later a Catholic media company. He was a "professional" who swallowed whole extraordinary claims without checking the details of the person making the claims. That's instructive...

At some point, the group turned from community of like-minded Catholics to a cult. Formerly good Catholics started telling themselves and others that their bishop was biased. The cult leader, Sweeney-Kyle, was having apparitions that said so! And so a whole group of souls were lost to rebellion.

I believe many of the apparitions we talk about on MOG have some cult-like elements. Seeing those at an early stage -- pointing them out-- is like discovering cancer at a time when it's treatable. So I'm going to follow this post with one on cult leaders and their characteristics, for consideration and discernment.

 

This is by a former FBI profiler and forensic psychologist.

Dangerous Cult Leaders
Dangerous Traits of Cult Leaders
Posted Aug 25, 2012

Joe Navarro M.A. Spycatcher


One of the questions that I am often asked by students of criminology and psychology is how do you know when a cult leader is “evil” or “bad”? These of course are vague descriptors to some extent but I get the question, “When is a cult leader pathological or, better said, a danger to others?” This is a valid question in view of the historical record of suffering and hurt caused by various cult leaders around the world.

I am sure others have addressed this issue before and I realize that it comes with its own minefield as many religions started out as cults - I am simply not going to enter that fray. But the question is valid from the point of view that there are people out there who are cult leaders and who do great harm to others emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, physically, or financially.

From my studies of cults and cult leaders during my time in the FBI, I learned early on that there are some things to look for that, at a minimum, say caution, this individual is dangerous, and in all likelihood will cause harm to others.

Having studied at length the life, teachings, and behaviors of Jim Jones (Jonestown Guyana), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Stewart Traill (The Church of Bible Understanding), Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo), Joseph Di Mambro (The Order of the Solar Temple aka Ordre du Temple Solaire), Marshall Heff Applewhit (Heaven’s Gate), Bhagwan Rajneesh (Rajneesh Movement), and Warren Jeffs (polygamist leader), what stands out about these individuals is that they were or are all pathologically narcissistic. They all have or had an over-abundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features.

These personality traits stand out as the first warning to those who would associate with them, but there are many others. Here is a collection of traits that I have collected over the years about cult leaders that give us hints as to their psychopathology. This list is not all-inclusive nor is it the final word on the subject; it is merely my personal collection based on my studies and interviews that I conducted in my previous career.

If you know of a cult leader who has many of these traits there is a high probability that they are hurting those around them emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, or financially. And of course this does not take into account the hurt that their loved ones will also experience.

Here are the typical traits of the pathological cult leader (from Dangerous Personalities) you should watch for and which shout caution, get away, run, or avoid if possible:

1. He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.
3. Demands blind unquestioned obedience.
4. Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.
5. Has a sense of entitlement - expecting to be treated special at all times.
6. Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives putting others at financial risk.
7. Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
8. Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
9. Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
10. Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
11. Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.
12. Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
13. Makes members confess their sins or faults publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.
14. Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
15. Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
16. Has insisted in always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
17. Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others, communication is usually one-way in the form of dictates.
18. Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.
19. Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
20. When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.
21. Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
22. Refers to non-members or non-believers in him as “the enemy.”
23. Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.
24. Believes himself to be omnipotent.
25. Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.
26. Is superficially charming.
27. Habitually puts down others as inferior and only he is superior.
28. Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.
29. Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.
30. Treats others with contempt and arrogance.
31. Is constantly assessing for those who are a threat or those who revere him.
32. The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.
33. Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly - when he does he acts out with rage.
34. Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.
35. Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
36. Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
37. Rigid, unbending, or insensitive describes how this person thinks.
38. Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
39. Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or outside world.
40. Monitors and or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
41. Works the least but demands the most.
42. Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”
43. Seems to be highly dependent of tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.
44. Uses enforcers or sycophants to insure compliance from members or believers.
45. Sees self as “unstoppable” perhaps has even said so.
46. Conceals background or family which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.
47. Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself – in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”
48. Has taken away the freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life, and liberty of followers.
49. Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.

Continued...

 

When the question is asked, “When do we know when a cult leader is bad, or evil, or toxic?” this is the list that I use to survey the cult leader for dangerous traits. Of course the only way to know anything for sure is to observe and validate, but these characteristics can go a long way to help with that. And as I have said, there are other things to look for and there may be other lists, but this is the one that I found most useful from studying these groups and talking to former members of cults.

When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer even if they don’t know it, yet.

* * * * * * * * *

Joe Navarro, M.A. is 25 year veteran of the FBI and is the author of What Every Body is Saying, as well as Dangerous Personalities. For additional information and a free bibliography please contact him through www.jnforensics.com or follow on twitter: @navarrotells or on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Joe-Navarro/236255193080893

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201208/dangerous-cult-leaders

 

Aren't you describing Hugh Hefner or Charlie Sheen? Just trying to add a little levity.

 

Yes, well I think that lengthy posts about cult leaders is not very helpful in a thread like this. I think this thread is a suitable place to mention again a newly published book which has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum.

It is the book by Medjugorje visionary Mirjana Soldo, 'My Heart Will Triumph'. I've just got the kindle version from Amazon and immediately realize this will be a wonderful evangelizing tool for those of us who want non-believers to know more about Medjugorje and what is and has been happening there. And it has been a tumultuous 35 years which included a terrible civil war.

Mirjana is the eldest of the visionaries and succesfully conveys in the book the drama of her experiences - the good and the bad. I believe Mirjana's honesty will show itself to all well intentioned readers and lead them to realise the need to make a response to Our Lady's presence. And somehow, in a way that I have not seen anywhere else, Mirjana is able to provide a flavour of what she experiences during an apparition.

It is not, I believe, through academic studying that discernment is learned in the matter of apparitions. Like many things in life, trial and error is the best teacher, especially if the searcher asks for guidance from the Holy Spirit. Medjugorje really is a God given example for us to 'try out'. After accepting Medjugorje, I did go on to make many mistakes, believing in many 'seers' who proved not to be authentic but I felt throughout that the Lord looks after us if we are well intentioned. We shouldn't be afraid to investigate. Rather, we should maybe be concerned about potentially ignoring a special gift from the Holy Spirit for our times. As our Lady has said in Medjugorje, when the fulfilment of the secrets begin it will be too late to change.

 

Border collie. The Holy Love at knock may be nothing to do with the one in America or where ever it is. It would be tragic if based on presumption Holy Love in Knock was rejected.

Surely you know not to be swayed by things you read on the internet. Use your own good judgement. And keep your Peace.

Our Lord told his Apostles to leave those alone who are working for the good, in His Name, when His followers complained about people curing in Jesus name even though they were not even Christians.

 

Mary Ann & Gang,
Carefully read what Harper wrote:
"Going forward:
I will not respond to any future posts of yours, CrewDog. At all.
I will do some Googling on Charlie Johnston. If I find anything noteworthy I will post it as I see fit. If I find anything that warrants the attention of the Denver archbishop, I will submit the information to him."
Now!! Tell me that Harper is somebody with just a casual interest in Seers, Prophecy and
Apparitions! Charlie Johnston "Is living Rent Free" in Harper's head! ... and for probably a Long Time ... Why!!?? Who knows? As one of the lesser Bards wrote: "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned". I'm guessing somewhere along the way somebody "Got Scorned" and payback is Hell!! Harper never passes up an opportunity to scorn Charlie in any Thread here and I'd bet other sites as well ... I don't care ... nor does Charlie as it just increases the number of "Hits" on his site! Sooooo..... when I see Harper "In Action" I'll post what I see fit in reply ... So There!! I'm also guessing that Charlie is Plumb Terrified that Harper is going to "Report Him" to Denver Diocese. I'll bet that Denver is filled with Paper Shuffling Lavender Strap-Hanging Snowflakes who are more afraid of their own shadows than anything else ..... and certainly won't make waves about anyone/thing .... just like most of the Catholic HQs in The West

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

Harper has posted - numerous times - the reasons for her objections. Why not try refuting some instead of trying to characterize them as "vicious attacks"? It is very telling to me the way you and other followers of Charlie react whenever a critical question is brought up. It simply is not a normal response.

I think you owe Harper - agree with her or not - an apology.

You disagree? Fine. State why and stop trying to make it personal.

You are losing credibility with every new insult thrown and by not adressing the raised concerns.

 

CrewDog, if Harper is a troll type I would be thinking of the ignore button. The copy and paste chunkies.

Frodo. Why flog a dead horse. Lets try something more positive.

Saint John of the Cross said that was why the Jews rejected Christ when he came first because they felt that it didn't fit in with their interpretation of the prophesy of Him" ruling over the nations", because they interpreted their prophesied saviour or "King of the nations" as a temporal ruler rather than spiritual as in the case of Jesus. Thus it shows how prophesy can be misconstrued according to our own interpretations and is never entirely linear.

 

Which dead horse would that be Julia?

My post was to try to stop the personal attacks and to hopefully get responses on concerns that others have.

 

I would like someone here show me where Harper and friends have "Gone After... with Hammer & Tong" other Not Approved Seers, Visionaries and Mystics! Show me those Posts and I'll rethink my opinion that it's all NOT a Hit Job Jihad against Charlie J. and Charlie J. only!! .... I'm waiting with Bated Breath

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

The two are linked Julia but the one in Knock has the backing of the clergy in Ireland. I'll say no more ... and keep my peace!

 

For what it's worth, CD, I'm in complete agreement with you. Harper, fresheggs and Kevin Symonds all seemed to have Charlie, in particular, in their crosshairs. Does make one wonder why...

 

In the interests of fairness, CD, I have to reply here because although I disagree with Harper on virtually every topic she comments on, I can confirm that she goes 'hammer & tong' after many contemporary mystical missions, Vassula probably being the brunt of her most relentless attacks. I doubt that she has a particular 'thing' about Charlie.

 

David,

I've found parts of your post that I completely agree with

You questioned the article on cult leaders. It's relevant because those who claim apparitions/words from God quickly gain followers. Since the church first examines the character of the person claiming messages from Heaven, understanding the psychology of frauds -- who leverage these claims to get attention, admiration, status, power, money-- is important. I say frauds because the act of leveraging itself is clearly conscious manipulation.

If I were a bishop faced with a visionary, I'd make sure any panel I set up included someone with a working BS detector, someone just like this FBI expert, as well as a theologian and a canon lawyer. Especially in the first phase of an inquiry. Real world experience is key.

Below: Posting one more article on a behavioral tip-off. It's a dynamic that almost everyone can recognize. It ties in to the topic at hand, discerning apparitions...

 

Those who work with domestic abuse victims use the term "flying monkeys" to describe those who enable abusers. Flying monkeys appear in cults and among followers of controversial mystics. They are used to attack critics of the seer. You will see them operating on social media at websites that have published information questioning the seer. One way to discern the character of a visionary is to look for the presence of flying monkeys.


Are you being used as a flying monkey for a narcissist?
March 23, 2015 by joannamoore
Flying Monkeys!

For those who don’t know this term, “flying monkeys” are people that a narcissist uses to do their bidding. Sometimes, a narcissist will not attack you publicly in any way–which makes them look good–but they are privately telling carefully chosen people how evil and awful you are. They select these people the same way they chose you. They are experts at reading people and realizing who will make an easy target and a puppet. They also know who won’t, so they avoid the people they can’t easily use. Narcissists usually choose other, lesser, narcissists who will enjoy attacking you, or they choose very empathetic people who believe their stories and honestly believe they are supporting an innocent person. These flying monkeys then proceed to stalk you and report back to the narcissist–again, either to be mean or because they think they are helping the wronged party. Or, the worst flying monkeys will spread the lies the narcissist tells them privately by taking them public. The lies don’t come from the narcissist’s mouth, so they can claim they are “taking the high road,” but the words the flying monkeys spread are *exactly* what they heard from the narc. They do the narcissist’s evil, but make it seem like the narcissist isn’t really involved. They have no idea they are being used. The term comes from the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz since the wicked witch sends them to carry out her attacks. Most of the time, the narcissist has convinced the monkeys that the narcissist is the victim and the real victim is the abuser, so the monkeys go after the real victim and treat the real victim like the abuser. Although, I have seen some cases where the monkeys know who is the real abuser and who is the real victim, but just want to jump in on the attack on the victim. (Scary.)...

... So how do you avoid being used as a flying monkey?

It’s normal for a nice, thoughtful person to be upset at an accused abuser. That’s exactly what a narcissist is counting on! They want to take advantage of your feelings and your empathy so they can use you as a tool to destroy the real victim. I have a feeling many of us have been used in this way; however, I hope that most of us would not take it to the point where we are outright stalking and attacking people. That’s getting into crazy land! So all we can do is our best, but consider the following:

1. Unless you are absolutely sure that the person telling you stories is telling the truth, (such as, they have police reports or other proof,) don’t take a side.
2. Think critically. Do the stories you are hearing match up? Do they match the alleged victim’s behavior? For example, if the person tells you they have been abused and are having a hard time, but they are out having a good time every Friday night, something isn’t adding up!
3. Consider if the “victim” has a story that sounds realistic and doesn’t change. Or, are they just telling you the other person is “bad” and “crazy” without having any real reason why? (This step isn’t fool-proof because narcissists often tell very convincing stories, but it is one to think about because often the narcissist doesn’t really have a story.)
4. And quite frankly, mind your own business if you don’t have cold, hard proof.

Full article posted at: http://facesofnarcissism.com/2015/03/23/472/
More on Narcissists: http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/
http://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2016/07/the-narcissists-flying-monkeys/
https://pairedlife.com/etiquette/A-Narcissist-is-Capable-of-Great-Destruction

Edited to delete an example of a seer, to add bf