Indeed and it is the only reason I find myself still contributing to the forum. The day it becomes just a traditionalist forum, I will be gone for good. As with many lovers of Pope Francis, I loved many of the traditional practices of the Catholic Church that have since disappeared. But I reject totally the 'traditionalist approach' of your good self and several other MoG contributors who put themselves above the Pope and his close helpers.
No but even he is misrepresented. He in his own words admires and supports Pope Francis. He helped in my anullment process.
As Joe says - rubbish! But what really bothers me about your reply is this use of the word 'Truth' with a capital 'T' which you keep using in your replies. If you replied that you placed 'Jesus' above all, I think it wouldn't worry me as much but there is something distinctly unhealthy in your use of 'Truth' in this way....
I would like you to stay; I have read your posts among others and believe that most here are godly people. Persons who are 100% sincere here. I do not like debates, since it leads to a 'winner" and 'loser' mentality. A discussion is OK but if people don't agree with an expressed opinion, I would just ignore it. Hope you stay. Maybe I am a 'traditionalist' but do not categorize us negatively. While I love the Latin Mass, especially when it is sung in Missa de Angelis (heavenly), I am in favour of Vatican 11. However many things have happened since Vatican 11 that are not Heavenly. God Bless
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6 There's a reason for capitalizing Truth. (Joe should be worried when his biggest ally here is a liberal/progressive. Hopefully he can learn something from that, if nothing else.)
Yes, I think I'm familiar with your scriptural quote! The fact remains that your use of the capitalized word (instead of 'Jesus') is indicative of something which makes me very uneasy. As for being categorized as a 'liberal/progressive', that has my family in hysterics!
I don't believe in Medjugorje, I don't trust Cardinal Schonborn and I'm critical of the Pope. I won't have to ditch any beliefs if Pope Francis will start acting more like the Vicar of Christ and less like the palace jester.
You'd be hard pressed to find any Traditionalist who defends the faith except among the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter. The Traditionalists of SS PX have placed themselves outside of the church and therefore the faith they defend is not Catholic insofar as it preaches and practices disobedience to the pope. No member of SSPX is traditional and the no member adheres to tradition. There is a world of difference bewteen a traditional Catholic and a traditionalist Catholic. And they are actually proud of this difference. It is this difference they defend. Not The Catholic Faith. The Pope concedes a Catholic appearance in the profession of their faith and includes them in our family like tolerant parent does a self righteous, rebellious son who is always causing strife and sorrow. Genetically they have membership of the family but that is where it stops for all practical purposes. The Church shows the same patience and perseverance as St Monica did with her son. She too saw the potential for good in him. In their arrogance they think they know better than the Church and are both unteachable and unbidable. Just like their supporters here. Their members will not even say the Traditional morning offering because it includes prayers for the intentions of our Holy Father the Pope. The Holy Father has tried and tried to accomodate their disobedience only because of their sacred history and its sacred content not because of their errant ways which they present as a defence of Tradition. Their stance perverts the faith and much of the historical abuse perpetrated by priest stems from the time when the power to celebrate the sacred rites was used to put them above questioning or contradiction. A place they cling on to dearly not least in this forum. Posivitivists for their opinion. Just as they are obsessed with condemning the pope so I am concerned that members here are quite clear about their motivation - to preserve their tradition, not the Tradition of The Church. Their comments on AL are simply a defence of their perversion of the faith. They, despite their victim mentality, are the heterodox.
'In their arrogance they think they know better than the Church and are both unteachable and unbidable. Just like their supporters here.' Joe, the Pope is not the Church. You write as if the Pope and the Church are one and the same; they are not. We are the Church. '7. In the human nature united to Himself the Son of God, by overcoming death through His own death and resurrection, redeemed man and re-molded him into a new creation.(50) By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body. In that Body the life of Christ is poured into the believers who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ who suffered and was glorified.(6*) Through Baptism we are formed in the likeness of Christ: "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body".(51) In this sacred rite a oneness with Christ's death and resurrection is both symbolized and brought about: "For we were buried with Him by means of Baptism into death"; and if "we have been united with Him in the likeness of His death, we shall be so in the likeness of His resurrection also".(52) Really partaking of the body of the Lord in the breaking of the Eucharistic bread, we are taken up into communion with Him and with one another. "Because the bread is one, we though many, are one body, all of us who partake of the one bread".(53) In this way all of us are made members of His Body,(54) "but severally members one of another".(55)'
This thread has nothing to do with the SSPX. I personally have nothing to do with the SSPX. (I attend a diocesan parish under the local bishop and the pope). The vast majority of traditionalists have nothing to do with the SSPX. The SSPX represents only a tiny minority of traditionalism. Defending the Faith has nothing to do with the SSPX. It is common to all Catholics who love their Faith and love God. Traditionalism tends to make the errors of this papacy easier to spot and traditionalists more outspoken when they are spotted, because their Faith is grounded in 2000 years of Church teaching. We don't consider VII to have been the beginning of "real" Catholicism, and thus have a wider, wiser persepective than those who think VII was more "enlightened" than everything that came before it. Your monomania regarding the SSPX is strange, at best. It's not healthy. (Thank you Padraig for including Joe's silly rant in your post, I would have missed it otherwise.)
I am an agnostic when it comes to Medjudorje. Many friends and patients had real conversions there, but supporters are blind to the problems, like locutionists who have made a lot of money in real estate and other ways from the phenomena. (That is always a red flag that should not be ignored.) Plus Schonborn's hearty endorsement has always been problematic for me. Before it was a vague feeling, now I understand why much better. But if the Church gave its approval tomorrow, I'd abide by the decision of the Church. (Unless it was obviously being "approved" for political or pragmatic reasons, i.e., approval of the site as a place of pilgrimage, preserving the cash flow, without definitely stating that the phenomena are heavenly.)
Brian I believe strongly in Medjugorje and Garabandal although I have never been to either. The essential message in Garabandal is "less and less" is paid to the Eucharist and that is so clear in this age, most especially in Sunday Mass. I really don't know why Cardinal Schonborn is a big promoter; it is puzzling, particularly in view of the facts you pointed to in his rendition of the Catechism. I did not know this and thanks for posting it. God Bless
If Cardinal Schonborn has anything to do with the approval it will be worded in such a way that there will be something in it for everyone. Fortunately, we are not obliged to believe in apparitions even if they have been approved. The people I know who believe in Medjugorje are very devout Catholics and not particularly traditionalist, certainly not what some call rad trads, and they aren't the type who would question a Pope. I have too much respect for them to belittle it and fortunately don't come across them often enough to worry about how to avoid discussing it. They aren't the type who would follow it like a cult if the Church declared that there was nothing supernatural about it. Anyway it is unlikely that a definitive ruling will come in the near future because the Church doesn't make a declaration while alleged apparitions are ongoing.
Yes, WE ARE THE Church AND while the Catholic Church encompasses its members it is much more than merely its members. IN BRIEF from the Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm 802 Christ Jesus "gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own" (Titus 2:14). 803 "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people" (1 Pet 2:9). 804 One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. "All men are called to belong to the new People of God" (LG 13), so that, in Christ, "men may form one family and one People of God" (AG 1). 805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body. 806 In the unity of this Body, there is a diversity of members and functions. All members are linked to one another, especially to those who are suffering, to the poor and persecuted. 807 The Church is this Body of which Christ is the head: she lives from him, in him, and for him; he lives with her and in her. 808 The Church is the Bride of Christ: he loved her and handed himself over for her. He has purified her by his blood and made her the fruitful mother of all God's children. 809 The Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the soul, as it were, of the Mystical Body, the source of its life, of its unity in diversity, and of the riches of its gifts and charisms. 810 "Hence the universal Church is seen to be 'a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'" (LG 4 citing St. Cyprian, De Dom. orat 23: PL 4, 553). 866 The Church is one: she acknowledges one Lord, confesses one faith, is born of one Baptism, forms only one Body, is given life by the one Spirit, for the sake of one hope (cf. Eph 4:3-5), at whose fulfillment all divisions will be overcome. 867 The Church is holy: the Most Holy God is her author; Christ, her bridegroom, gave himself up to make her holy; the Spirit of holiness gives her life. Since she still includes sinners, she is "the sinless one made up of sinners." Her holiness shines in the saints; in Mary she is already all-holy. 868 The Church is catholic: she proclaims the fullness of the faith. She bears in herself and administers the totality of the means of salvation. She is sent out to all peoples. She speaks to all men. She encompasses all times. She is "missionary of her very nature" (AG 2). 869 The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops. 870 "The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines"(LG 8). 934"Among the Christian faithful by divine institution there exist in the Church sacred ministers, who are also called clerics in law, and other Christian faithful who are also called laity." In both groups there are those Christian faithful who, professing the evangelical counsels, are consecrated to God and so serve the Church's saving mission (cf. CIC, can. 207 § 1, 2). 935 To proclaim the faith and to plant his reign, Christ sends his apostles and their successors. He gives them a share in his own mission. From him they receive the power to act in his person. 936 The Lord made St. Peter the visible foundation of his Church. He entrusted the keys of the Church to him. The bishop of the Church of Rome, successor to St. Peter, is "head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the universal Church on earth" (CIC, can. 331). 937 The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (CD 2). 938 The Bishops, established by the Holy Spirit, succeed the apostles. They are "the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches" (LG 23). 939 Helped by the priests, their co-workers, and by the deacons, the bishops have the duty of authentically teaching the faith, celebrating divine worship, above all the Eucharist, and guiding their Churches as true pastors. Their responsibility also includes concern for all the Churches, with and under the Pope. 940 "The characteristic of the lay state being a life led in the midst of the world and of secular affairs, lay people are called by God to make of their apostolate, through the vigor of their Christian spirit, a leaven in the world" (AA 2 § 2). 941 Lay people share in Christ's priesthood: ever more united with him, they exhibit the grace of Baptism and Confirmation in all dimensions of their personal family, social and ecclesial lives, and so fulfill the call to holiness addressed to all the baptized. 942 By virtue of their prophetic mission, lay people "are called . . . to be witnesses to Christ in all circumstances and at the very heart of the community of mankind" (GS 43 § 4). 943 By virtue of their kingly mission, lay people have the power to uproot the rule of sin within themselves and in the world, by their self-denial and holiness of life (cf. LG 36). 944 The life consecrated to God is characterized by the public profession of the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience, in a stable state of life recognized by the Church. 945 Already destined for him through Baptism, the person who surrenders himself to the God he loves above all else thereby consecrates himself more intimately to God's service and to the good of the whole Church.
The Pope is not the Church, but the Head of the Mystical Body of Christ. https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura1.htm
