The thing I loved most about st Peter was that he made mistakes and kept right on making them. There has not been a Pope since Peter who did not boob. There has not been a human being ever created with the exception of Mary and jesus who did not bomb. To consider that any Pope is faultless is to set Popes up as a kind of idol. It is just not real. We are all sinners like St Peter. Peter, for instance, who tried to flee Rome when Nero started the great killing only to hear Jesus call him back with words, 'Quo Vadis, Peter?' To regard Popes as faultless is not Catholic, it is simple idolatry.
I have never said Pope Francis is faultless. I believe in him. There is no pretense in my conviction. It is a mature and well informed faith to which I hold.
I think rather it will be called a schism of protest. The Pope is going nowhere. Only those who oppose him. Just like all the other protesters of old.
'I have never said Pope Francis is faultless.' I am surprised Joe! I was never aware of this. What, 'faults', have you discovered?
What....the Pope's gonna split from the Church? Otherwise those who do would be the schismatics, not him! Should we then label the scandal as JPII's scandal?
Thanks Padraig. I have prayed for him even as I have defended the Faith. More than that, I have accepted real crosses for him and offered them back to The Lord for him. His heterodoxy causes real suffering for some of us, and that is offered up for him. But to be accused, wrongly, of what defenders of the Faith are accused of ... that is one of the biggest crosses to bear. Yet that cross too is offered up, for those making the false accusations and for the Holy Father. Frankly I believe this is some of the most powerful intercession for the Holy Father that can be found in our world today. Because that is true love.
Suppose for a moment Joe an artist who in his paintings refused to use the darker colours, the blacks, the browns , the grays the deeper shades and shadows. What would his works look like and how close to any semblance of realities with bright red and yellows, swirling yellows, startling oranges and no shade to give balance? It would be an Alice in Wonderfland world, lacking in and connection to the real, a ffantasy world, unreal. Imagine again another kind of artict. A writer who failed to portray in his novels the darker sides of the human experience , the death, the illness , the pain, the human hugers. His characters would all at once become cardboards cuts out , his portrayal of our world a sham. One of my greatest spiritual gifts and joys has been the peasure I take, Joe , in reading the lives of the saints. In doing this a very great joy to me in reading tehse lives is to see them portrayed in all their struggles and weaknessess , warts and all. Sometimes very large warts indeed. Now suppose a writer were to say, 'Who am I to judge?' and were to ,say, leave out the falleness of a Mary Magdalene , the youthful follies of a St Francis of Assissi of the warlikeness of a St Ignatious of Loyola? What would we be left with but the brightest of colours and a fantasy , a pantomine. We as Catholics are called to see the world in all the sahdes of colours. We have eyes ,we are called to use them. We have ears we are called to listen with them. We have minds, we are called to use them. We are called to judge, Joe, we are called to see and judge the darker coulours, for if we do not see and judge that whcih is dark life itself would cease to be worth living. We are called to be obedient Joe, we are not called to blind robotic clones. Look at the portrayal of the apostles in scripture. They are shown in all their deepest humainity. St Thomas asked questions. Peter ran away. James and John sought power. The gospel writers were not judging these men, they were simply portraying tehm as they were. As poor sinners like the rest of us. When and at what point did we as Catholics think in ocnsidering our Popes get the shameful notion that we could not use dark colours in our representation of them? That we should enter an Alice in Wonder Land world, to our great shame and consider this a virtue?
As to David prasing you Joe for keeping in such lock step, I would take that with a very large pinch of salt. For he is writing as a Liberal who sees the Holy Grail of Liberals, a Liberal Pope. If things had panned out different he would, I suspect, be singing from a very different song sheet, it is simply convenient for him that you appear to be goose stepping down the same road as him. It doesn't matter to him that you are not Liberal yourself, the bottom line is you are following the Party line.
No Jerry. That was just a wee bit of fun. His faults are his own business. His faith is mine. That is serious. Why would I wish to pick fault with my pope. Others here do that so much better. I am between patients again. Some of us do not have the luxury of unlimited time.
I have no regard for Party lines just papal guidance. He guides me along the right path. He is true to his word.
No wonder you are blind. Wandering around in all that darkness. But if I were to walk in the valley of the shadows and darkness no evil would I fear. He is there with his Crozier (crook and staff) for defence and support. With these he gives me comfort. Why do you insist on accusing me is such deficits? Do you not think I know all that sbout the saints. Or are you like Brian simply being obtuse. Like the warden in the Shaw Shank Reddmption? I do not know Alice nor have I either entertained or been entertained by her.
With respect to Joe and Carol, nobody here is calling the Pope the False Prophet. Joe: You talk as though everything Pope Francis has said and done is above board when clearly that isn't the case. In Amoris Laetitia he has quoted a previous pope completely out of context and used it as a supporting argument to permit something that was forbidden by the same pope. Knowing that what he has permitted reverses 2000 years of Tradition, he covered himself by saying that it was just his opinion and then went on to condemn as pharisees, heretics and merciless anyone who doesn't agree with him. He said that Amoris Laetitia does not allow divorcees in non-sacramental marriages to receive Communion. Then he announced that Cardinal Schonborn is the official interpreter of Amoris Laetitia. Not only did Cardinal Schonborn say that divorcees in non-sacramental marriages are permitted to receive Communion, but he has been allowing it in Vienna before the Synod even discussed it. The Pope himself actually told a remarried divorcee to find another priest who would give her Communion when her own priest refused. He praised as "a forgotten great" Italy's most notorious abortionist. People have excused that by saying he didn't know about her connection with abortion, yet as Bishop of Rome it was his business to know who he was lauding as a role model for Catholics. He presented an award to lapsed Catholics and self-proclaimed atheists whose claim to fame includes collecting other people's money for the poor while supporting actively and contributing their own money to the world's most notorious abortion provider. The above are just a few examples. There are more. The Pope is human and like the vast majority of humans he has good and bad points. In my opinion he is well intentioned but a poor Pope - the worst Pope in my lifetime. Is he a heretic? I don't know. History tells us that it is possible for a Pope to be a heretic and for a Pope to live a life of sin while not being the False Prophet or the Anti-Christ. I respect your looking for the good while ignoring the not so good. I would appreciate it if you and others would respect that some of us have legitimate concerns without questioning our faith in Christ's Church.
Yes Joe, i was you who wrote, 'Do not judge', but lets see in the last few posts you have written that, people are picking faults, that they are blind, that I am wadering round in darkness and that Brian is obtuse. Your posts tend to be often diatribes of insult Joe. This seems to me to be judging? Judging and avoiding judgement as it suits?
Joe , by his own estimation, does not enter into judgement on others, Mac. So you should be quite safe then from any abuse.
Good point Padraig. Still , I expect a 2 page story of some kind. No doubt the SSPX will be mentioned.
