I tend to think you are absolutely right, Daniel, but what if one doesn't fully comprehend what is being said-is there any harm in asking for clarification so that one may more contentedly obey?
Absolutely no harm in that; we should certainly discuss it, question it, etc. . In that regard there are certainly good and helpful discussions going on in this thread. I just wanted to take a stand on the deeper question of our more fundamental response.
I don't disagree with what you say, with the exception that all we know commands us to remain loyal to the papacy. However, will any be condemned for genuine obedience?
Even by the '70s or '80s I would imagine the Church was not a 'cool' choice for the liberals. Maybe the social justice socialists attracted to 'liberation theology', but these latter don't seem the real enemy nowadays and most particularly in South America, where there has been undeniable imbalance and injustice, even if we disagree with their politics. I say this in the sense that I found myself rooting for Sanders against Clinton-not that the former is anything but mostly wrong, but that he hasn't quite embraced the deepest circle of hell. Maybe I am clutching at straws but I am hoping that many Catholic radicals, although misguided, are not engaging in the fundamental denial of Christ that some are advocating. Pope Francis has not shown himself willing to spell out our worst fears in an undeniable manner up to this point. It is far from perfect but there is no heresy. Sufficient unto the day...
From Fr Regis Scanlan (and remember Pope Francis signed this encyclical): How did Amoris Laetitia create such confusion about marriage? I believe the answer to that question is in the footnotes. Whoever added footnotes, and prepared the final document for publication, inserted two completely separate papal documents for reference. In doing so, they altered and/or conflated their meanings to make it appear that the Church was opening the door to permitting invalidly married couples who are “living as brothers and sisters” to express certain acts of marital intimacy (as distinct from brotherly and sisterly intimacy). This would appear to be the first step to allowing all invalidly married couples to receive the sacraments. Let’s be clear: The Church’s message is not to “bar the door” to persons who are living in the pain and loneliness of an invalid marriage. What a terrible thing that must be, to be aware of the pull of their conscience to “make things right,” but to know that it cannot be done at this time. One of the most terrible side effects of Amoris Laetitia is that its ambiguities make it impossible to know for certain what the right thing is! My friends, the door is not only opened but ripped off its hinges! This is a "false mercy."
Pope Francis: ‘Rigid… this or nothing’ Catholics are ‘heretical’ and ‘not Catholic’ John-Henry Westen COMMENTARY June 9, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – The stunning introduction to today’s official Vatican Radio report on Pope Francis’ morning homily reads: “Pope Francis warned on Thursday against an excessive rigidity, saying those within the Church who tell us ‘it’s this or nothing’ are heretics and not Catholics. His remarks came during the morning Mass on Thursday celebrated at the Santa Marta residence.” The specific section of the homily referred to in the opening is as follows: This (is the) healthy realism of the Catholic Church: the Church never teaches us ‘or this or that.’ That is not Catholic. The Church says to us: ‘this and that.’ ‘Strive for perfectionism: reconcile with your brother. Do not insult him. Love him. And if there is a problem, at the very least settle your differences so that war doesn’t break out.’ This (is) the healthy realism of Catholicism. It is not Catholic (to say) ‘or this or nothing:’ This is not Catholic, this is heretical. Jesus always knows how to accompany us, he gives us the ideal, he accompanies us towards the ideal, He frees us from the chains of the laws' rigidity and tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’ And he understands us very well. He is our Lord and this is what he teaches us. Interpreting what Pope Francis is saying in a precise way has always been difficult. However, there has been a consistent theme in his remarks against what he refers to as ‘rigid’ Catholics who hold steadfastly to the ideals proposed by Christ and to absolutes. “Fundamentalism is a sickness that we find in all religions,” said the Pope in November while flying home from Africa. “Among Catholics there are many, not a few, many, who believe to hold the absolute truth,” he added. “They go ahead by harming others with slander and defamation, and they do great harm… And it must be combated.” In his most recent Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, Pope Francis criticized the Church for often proposing, “a far too abstract and almost artificial theological ideal of marriage.” He added that conscience can “recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal.” An accusation of rigidity or heresy by Pope Francis against those who would insist on the ideal of Christ’s teaching such as marriage, would fall heavily on Francis’ own predecessor, Pope St. John Paul II, whom Pope Francis himself declared a saint. In the encyclical Veritatis Splendor, John Paul taught: "It would be a very serious error to conclude... that the Church's teaching is essentially only an 'ideal' which must then be adapted, proportioned, graduated to the so-called concrete possibilities of man, according to a 'balancing of the goods in question'.” The same condemnation of heresy against “this or nothing” Catholics would seem to target the author of God or Nothing, Cardinal Robert Sarah, who Pope Francis appointed to head the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. In God or Nothing, Cardinal Sarah forcefully rejected the notion of watering down the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage with pastoral leniency. “The idea of putting magisterial teaching in a beautiful display case while separating it from pastoral practice, which then could evolve along with circumstances, fashions, and passions, is a sort of heresy, a dangerous schizophrenic pathology,” he wrote. Cardinal Sarah also issued a warning to prelates who would seek to alter doctrine by altering the practice of the Church regarding marriage. “Men who devise and elaborate strategies to kill God, to destroy the centuries-old doctrine and teaching of the Church, will themselves be swallowed up, carried off by their own earthly victory into the eternal fires of Gehenna,” he said. Pope Francis says that Christ “tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’” The Bible however, records our Lord’s words differently in the Gospel of Matthew concluding the 5th chapter where He teaches the hard truths about divorce and adultery. “Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect,” said Jesus. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...hing-catholics-are-heretical-and-not-catholic
When it says, "everyone must examine themselves" it is understood throughout Church history that this is a reference to being free from mortal sin. As far as admitting divorced and remarried Orthodox to receive, I don't know if it is now permitted nor whatat the practice was prior to VII. I need to look that one up. If they are now permitted, I would think that's another serious mistake of the post VII false ecumenism.
Cardinal Burke has said that quite clearly Amoris Laetitia is not magisterial. Regardless, the obvious errors of AL must be opposed; parts of it simply cannot be seen as being in any way interpreted in congruity with Tradition.
Thanks Brian. Some people defending the opening of Communion to the divorced and remarried claim that it is merely a change in discipline. I was trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion and thought that maybe they were basing it on the absence of a specific reference in the bible passage to being in a state of grace. Looks like I'm back to adultery being reduced to venial sin provided they say sorry to a priest in Confession, but I still don't understand how that could fall under the heading of Discipline. Regarding the Orthodox, on further reflection I reckon that in their case a lack of full knowledge covers them because their own Church permits the divorced and remarried to receive. I suppose that will be the excuse for giving Communion to Lutherans in same sex unions should there be an inter-Communion agreement with them.
For those who prefer to listen to the Holy Father's guidance directly rather than via the editor of LifeSiteNews, I copy Vatican Radio's report of the homily: Pope: Those who say “this or nothing” are heretics not Catholics Pope Francis preaching at Mass, Thu 09 June, 2016 - OSS_ROM (Vatican Radio) Pope Francis warned on Thursday against an excessive rigidity, saying those within the Church who tell us “it’s this or nothing” are heretics and not Catholics. His remarks came during the morning Mass on Thursday celebrated at the Santa Marta residence. In his homily the Pope reflected on the harm caused by Churchmen who do the opposite of what they preach and urged them to free themselves from a rigid idealism that prevents reconciliation between each other. Taking his cue from Jesus’ warning to his disciples that unless their righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees they will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, Pope Francis stressed the importance of Christian realism. Jesus, he said, asks us to go beyond the laws and love God and neighbour, stressing that whoever is angry with their brother will be liable to judgement. Insulting our brother is like giving a slap to his soul The Pope said we have “a very creative vocabulary for insulting others” but stressed that such insults are a sin and are akin to killing because they are giving a slap to our brother’s soul and to his dignity. Noting the presence of several children at the Mass, Pope Francis urged them to stay calm, saying the preaching of a child in a church is much more beautiful than that of a priest, bishop or of the Pope. A Churchman who does the opposite of what he preaches is a scandal Jesus, said the Pope, urged his confused people to look beyond and go forward. But at the same time, Christ warned about the harm caused to the people of God by Christians who do not follow their own teachings. “How many times do we in the Church hear these things: how many times! ‘But that priest, that man or that woman from the Catholic Action, that bishop, or that Pope tell us we must do this this way!’ and then they do the opposite. This is the scandal that wounds the people and prevents the people of God from growing and going forward. It doesn’t free them. In addition, these people had seen the rigidity of those scribes and Pharisees and when a prophet came to give them a bit of joy, they (the scribes and Pharisees) persecuted them and even murdered them; there was no place for prophets there. And Jesus said to them, to the Pharisees: ‘you have killed the prophets, you have persecuted the prophets: those who were bringing fresh air.’” Follow the healthy realism of the Church: No to idealism and rigidity Pope Francis urged his listeners to recall how Jesus’s request for generosity and holiness is all about going forward and always looking out beyond ourselves. This, he explained, frees us from the rigidity of the laws and from an idealism that harms us. Jesus knows only too well our nature, said the Pope, and asks us to seek reconciliation whenever we have quarrelled with somebody. He also teaches us a healthy realism, saying there are so many times “we can’t be perfect" but "do what you can do and settle your disagreements.” “This (is the) healthy realism of the Catholic Church: the Church never teaches us ‘or this or that.’ That is not Catholic. The Church says to us: ‘this and that.’ ‘Strive for perfectionism: reconcile with your brother. Do not insult him. Love him. And if there is a problem, at the very least settle your differences so that war doesn’t break out.’ This (is) the healthy realism of Catholicism. It is not Catholic (to say) ‘or this or nothing:’ This is not Catholic, this is heretical. Jesus always knows how to accompany us, he gives us the ideal, he accompanies us towards the ideal, He frees us from the chains of the laws' rigidity and tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’ And he understands us very well. He is our Lord and this is what he teaches us.” Reconciling amongst ourselves is the tiny sanctity of negotiation Pope Francis concluded his homily by reminding how Jesus exhorted us to avoid hypocrisy and do what we can and at the very least avoid disputes amongst ourselves by coming to an agreement. “And allow me to use this word that seems a bit strange: it’s the tiny sanctity of negotiations. ‘So, I can’t do everything but I want to do everything, therefore I reach an agreement with you, at least we don’t trade insults, we don’t wage a war and we can all live in peace.’ Jesus is a great person! He frees us from all our miseries and also from that idealism which is not Catholic. Let us implore our Lord to teach us, first to escape from all rigidity but also to go out beyond ourselves, so we can adore and praise God who teaches us to be reconciled amongst ourselves and who also teaches us to reach an agreement up to the point that we are able to do so.” http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...o_say_“this_or_nothing”_are_heretics_/1235939
No disrespect intended. But that was one boring homily. And it would take years off you trying to work out what the poor man is on about. Jesus, said the Pope, urged his confused people to look beyond and go forward. This is the scandal that wounds the people and prevents the people of God from growing and going forward. Pope Francis urged his listeners to recall how Jesus’s request for generosity and holiness is all about going forward and always looking out beyond ourselves. It is not Catholic (to say) ‘or this or nothing:’ This is not Catholic, this is heretical. He frees us from ----- from that idealism which is not Catholic. Let us implore our Lord to teach us, first to escape from all rigidity but also to go out beyond ourselves. If my student in RE class wrote those sentences there would scored out with a red pen and in the margin I would write - 'physco-babble'. Going forward and going beyond ourselves?? What does that mean. Confused Catholic
Not sure that a homily can be both boring and incomprehensible at the same time. LifeSiteNews clearly thinks it understands what Pope Francis is saying.
The more I examine the world the more mad it seems to be. Either I am a sane one in a mad world or a mad one in a sane world!
Note: "The New Science of Stopping War". I suppose they'll soon tell us that the innumerable wars around the world are merely their empirical experiments in this new 'science'. I do remember that when I was in UCD the Psychology Department was in the Arts building, where it belonged...along with Fiction.
I have often been alarmed by the Holy Father's take it or leave it tone. If he were on the forum he might well be leaving it, if he were an ordinary lay person for this harsh, dismissive, repeated tone. Surely this is not in line with the tone and spirit of Vatican 2, a Spirit of openess and tolerance? It's my way or the highway does not sit well.
Pretty rigid stuff here... What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10And in the house again his disciples asked him concerning the same thing. 11And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Poor Pope Francis. He has his work cut out entertaining everyone with his sermons. And God only knows what his advisers are telling him, which could be affecting how he relates to us. We need to pray for him. God bless our Pope.
