Divine Will revisited.

Hi Mark,
I believe we read this stanza 715, of the Catechism, firstly in its entirety and secondly in the context of the preceding and post stanzas 714 and 716.
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714 This is why Christ inaugurates the proclamation of the Good News by making his own the following passage from Isaiah:84

The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to bring good tidings to the afflicted;
he has sent me to bind up the broken hearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor.

715 The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of the promise, with the accents of "love and fidelity."85 St. Peter will proclaim their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost.86 According to these promises, at the "end time" the Lord's Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; he will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace.

716 The People of the "poor"87 - those who, humble and meek, rely solely on their God's mysterious plans, who await the justice, not of men but of the Messiah - are in the end the great achievement of the Holy Spirit's hidden mission during the time of the promises that prepare for Christ's coming. It is this quality of heart, purified and enlightened by the Spirit, which is expressed in the Psalms. In these poor, the Spirit is making ready "a people prepared for the Lord."88

Thats just the way I would read and understand the above.

 

Since we began debating Emmett, and as has been pointed out to you by others, your equating millenarianism to an "Era of peace" has been rejected by the Magisterium directly by Cardinal Ratzinger and other magisterial statements.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578 —n. 676​

I deliberately left in the footnote references above because they are crucial in helping us understand what is meant by “millenarianism”, and secondly, “secular messianism” in the Catechism.

Footnote 577 is a reference to Denzinger-Schonnmetzer’s work (Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum). Denzinger’s work traces the development of doctrine and Dogma in the Catholic Church from its earliest times, and is obviously seen as a credible enough source for the Catechism to quote. The footnote to “millenarianism” leads us to Denzinger’s work, which states:

…the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely. —DS 2269/3839, Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944​

Millenarianism, writes Leo J. Trese in The Faith Explained, pertains to those who take Revelation 20:6 literally.

St. John, describing a prophetic vision (Rev 20:1-6), says that the devil will be bound and imprisoned for a thousand years, during which the dead will come to life and reign with Christ; at the end of the thousand years the devil will be released and finally vanquished forever, and then will come the second resurrection… Those who do take this passage literally and believe that Jesus will come to reign upon earth for a thousand years before the end of the world are called millenarists. —p. 153-154, Sinag-Tala Publishers, Inc. (with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur)​

Catholic theologian, Cardinal Jean Daniélou, also explains that:

Millenarianism, the belief that there will be an earthly reign of the Messiah before the end of time, is the Jewish-Christian doctrine which has aroused and continues to arouse more argument than any other. —A History of Early Christian Doctrine, p. 377 (as cited in The Splendor of Creation, p. 198-199, Rev. Joseph Iannuzzi)​

He adds, “The reason for this, however, is probably a failure to distinguish between the various elements of doctrine”—which is what we have been trying to do here.

So in summary, Millenarianism in its root form was the belief that Jesus would return in the flesh to earth and reign for a literal thousand years before the end of time, an error initiated primarily by the first Jewish converts. There came from this heresy several offshoots such as the “carnal millenarians” whom St. Augustine identified as those who believe that…

…those who then rise again shall enjoy the leisure of immoderate carnal banquets, furnished with an amount of meat and drink such as not only to shock the feeling of the temperate, but even to surpass the measure of credulity…. They who believe them are called by the spiritual Chiliasts, which we may reproduce by the name of Millenarians…” (from De Civitate Dei, Book 10, Ch. 7​

From this form of Millenarianism came the offshoots of modified, mitigated and spiritual Millenarianism under various sects whereby the carnal indulgences were excluded and yet some form of Christ returning to earth to reign and establish a definitive kingdom was still held. In all these forms, the Church has explicitly, once and for all, defined that this “system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.” The return of Jesus in the flesh and definitive establishment of the Kingdom will only occur at the end of time.

On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.—Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 681​

Footnote 578 brings us to the document Divini Redemptoris, Pope Pius XI’s Encyclical against Atheistic Communism. While the millenarians held to some form of a utopian earthly-spiritual kingdom, secular messianists hold to a utopian political kingdom.

The Communism of today, more emphatically than similar movements in the past, conceals in itself a false messianic idea. —POPE PIUS XI, Divini Redemptoris, n. 8, www.vatican.va​

St. Augustine clarified that, were it not for the Chiliasts’ beliefs attached to the millenium, that a period of peace or “sabbath rest” is indeed a valid interpretation of Revelation 20.

…as if it were a fit thing that the saints should thus enjoy a kind of Sabbath-rest during that period [of a “thousand years”], a holy leisure after the labors of six thousand years since man was created… [and] there should follow on the completion of six thousand years, as of six days, a kind of seventh-day Sabbath in the succeeding thousand years… And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints, in that Sabbath, shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God… —St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.; Church Doctor), De Civitate Dei, Bk. XX, Ch. 7, Catholic University of America Presss​

And this, indeed, is what was summarized by a theological commission:

Such an occurrence is not excluded, is not impossible, it is not all certain that there will not be a prolonged period of triumphant Christianity before the end… If before that final end there is to be a period, more or less prolonged, of triumphant sanctity, such a result will be brought about not by the apparition of the person of Christ in Majesty but by the operation of those powers of sanctification which are now at work, the Holy Ghost and the Sacraments of the Church. —The Teaching of the Catholic Church: A Summary of Catholic Doctrine, London Burns Oates & Washbourne, p. 1140​

Revelation 20 therefore should not be interpreted as a literal return of Christ in the flesh for a literal thousand years.

…millenarianism is that thought which stems from a too literal, incorrect, and faulty interpretation of Chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation…. This can only be understood in a spiritual sense. —Catholic Encyclopedia Revised, Thomas Nelson, p. 387​

It is precisely this definition of an “era of peace” that the Church has nowhere condemned in any document, and in fact, has affirmed that it is a certain possibility. Think of the heresy of Millenarianism as an olive tree and mitigated or modified Millenarianism as a pruned olive tree. The “era of peace” is actually a different tree all together. The problem is that these trees have grown side by side throughout the centuries, and poor theology, bad scholarship, and faulty assumptions have assumed that the branches crossing over from one tree to the other are actually the same tree. Padre Martino Penasa spoke to Msgr. S. Garofalo (Consultant to the Congregation for the Cause of Saints) on the scriptural foundation of an historic and universal era of peace, as opposed to millenarianism. Msgr. suggested that the matter be posed directly to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Fr. Martino thus posed the question: “È imminente una nuova era di vita cristiana?” (“Is a new era of Christian life imminent?”). The Prefect at that time, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger replied, “La questione è ancora aperta alla libera discussione, giacchè la Santa Sede non si è ancora pronunciata in modo definitive”:

The question is still open to free discussion, as the Holy See has not made any definitive pronouncement in this regard. —Il Segno del Soprannauturale, Udine, Italia, n. 30, p. 10, Ott. 1990; Fr. Martino Penasa presented this question of a “millenary reign” to Cardinal Ratzinger

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But hasnt Benedict always been praised for the clarity of his thought? I suppose it would need to be said in order to maintain a theory already rejected. Didnt a previous post quote Benedict when he was Cardinal ratzinger that said the early Father's teachings on the millenium were rejected? Yes, I remember now in the Dogmatic theology book; so yes it makes complete sense that he presents the Augustinian model of the first resurrection with perfect clarity.

 

Mark,
but how do you explain liberation theology as a form of millenarianism? By quoting the Pius XI encyclical you are actually admitting that millenarianism is no longer restricted to forms that include carnal feasting and some form of precense of God.
So inadvertently, you are actually saying that the church rejects all notions of an earthly paradise situation. You would have been better keeping quiet about the political form because it is proof that the Popes understand the danger of millenarianism even in its less spectacular forms.
On this point, one very interesting fact has not been mentioned-as I have followed this very interesting thread. When you quote Augustine in your defence, you say he would have had no problem with a spiritual millenium if the saints joys were spiritual and consequent on the presence of God. Now to me, the absolute nail in the coffin is that last part "consequent on the presence of God" Why? because God from a biblical perspective only comes down with the New Jersualem at the very end of the world, so Augustine knew that was not possible in any earlier time. I think it would be worth you meditating on that fact, then you may see the truth as to why the Church has rejected a temporal kingdom/era of peace call it what you will. I for one will rejoice when you finally see the clarity presented in the Catechism, and i am sure many others will too!
peace
Bill

 

But it is the stuff of Our Lady's messages to the world. At this moment, I can't find the approved message(s) to Fr. Gobbi in this regard (Peter?). But this is said also to Elizabeth Kindelmann in her approved messages:

Hurry, the moment is near when my Flame of Love will flare up and Satan will be blinded. So, I want you to experience this in order to increase your trust in me. From this you will be energized with great strength and courage… The Flame will ignite across nations consecrated to me and then all around the globe. —Diary, from theflameoflove.org

Ever since the Word became Flesh, I have not undertaken a greater movement than the Flame of Love from My Heart who rushes to you. Till now, nothing could blind Satan as much. —Ibid.

…my Flame of Love… is Jesus Christ himself. —The Flame of Love, p. 38, from Elizabeth Kindelmann’s diary; 1962; Imprimatur Archbishop Charles Chaput

The soft light of my Flame of Love will light up spreading fire over the entire surface of the earth, humiliating Satan rendering him powerless, completely disabled. Do not contribute to prolong the pains of childbirth. —Our Lady to Elizabeth Kindelmann; The Flame of Love, Imprimatur from Archbishop Charles Chaput​

To St. Faustina, Jesus said:

…the efforts of Satan and of evil men are shattered and come to naught. In spite of Satan’s anger, the Divine Mercy will triumph over the whole world and will be worshiped by all souls. —Divine Mercy in My Soul, Diary, n. 1789
​

St. Margaret Mary says regarding the Sacred Heart:

This devotion was the last effort of His love that He would grant to men in these latter ages, in order to withdraw them from the empire of Satan which He desired to destroy, and thus to introduce them into the sweet liberty of the rule of His love, which He wished to restore in the hearts of all those who should embrace this devotion. —St. Margaret Mary, www.sacredheartdevotion.com​

This is congruent with the approved messages in Itapiranga that Peter is translating for us:

All of this is in order that you should understand how important it is to act against Satan in these last times. If you all pray together Satan will be destroyed with his whole kingdom of darkness, but what is lacking today are hearts which truly live deeply united in prayer with God and myself. —15.1.98
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In the famed apparition still under investigation by the Vatican (but notably mentioned as real in the approved messages of Itapiranga), is what the seers report from Medjugorje. In an interview with Jan Connell, we hear:

J: Concerning this century, is it true that the Blessed Mother related a dialogue to you between God and the devil? In it… God allowed the devil one century in which to exercise extended power, and the devil chose these very times.​

The visionary answered “Yes”, citing as proof the great divisions we see particularly among families today. Connell asks:

J: Will the fulfillment of the secrets of Medjugorje break the power of Satan?

M: Yes.

J: How?

M: That is part of the secrets.​

Affirming the era of peace that will result from this binding of Satan, St. Louis de Montfort writes:

We are given reason to believe that, towards the end of time and perhaps sooner than we expect, God will raise up people filled with the Holy Spirit and imbued with the spirit of Mary. Through them Mary, Queen most powerful, will work great wonders in the world, destroying sin and setting up the kingdom of Jesus her Son upon the RUINS of the corrupt kingdom which is this great earthly Babylon. (Rev.18:20)—St. Louis de Montfort, Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin,n. 58-59

Can we pray, therefore, for the coming of Jesus? Can we sincerely say: “Maran tha! Come Lord Jesus!”? Yes, we can. And not only for that: we must! We pray for anticipations of his world-changing presence. —POPE BENEDICT XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, Holy Week: From the Entrance into Jerusalem to the Resurrection, p. 292, Ignatius Press​

 

Bill, please read my posts in entirety, especially the one regarding millenarianism. Because there, it is explained how this heresy has progressed, especially into its most perverse forms of political or secular messianism (ie. communism). This is not at all what Our Lady's apparitions are suggesting, what the Popes are praying and speaking of, (see The Popes, and the Dawning Era), nor what I have read anyone here suggesting.

In that regard, let me requote Emmett's post on Cardinal Ratzinger, who positively nails the Church's teaching in this regard:

The Kingdom of God which Christ promises does not consist in a modification of our earthly circumstances... Clearly such a transformation can only take place through death. For this reason the Kingdom of God, salvation in its fulness, cannot be deprived of its connection with dying... the idea of a definitive intra-historical fulfilment fails to take into account the premanent openess of history and human freedom , for which failure is always a possibility. —Death and Judgment, pg. 62, 213​

The Gospel is meant to transform the world around us, to create a civilization of love. The Church works tirelessly to this effect, and it is evident, for instance, in the early transformation of Europe. So obviously the "modification" Ratzinger is referring to is a "definitive intra-historical" end to sin and suffering whereby "human freedom" no longer has the capacity to rebel against God. This teaching of Ratzinger actually reinforces that the interpretation of Rev. 20 in the proper sense intended by the Church Fathers is far from millenarianism for very the reason that, "when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea." (Rev 20:7-8)

Obviously, sin, suffering, and human freedom remain as a distinct and real possibility during the Era of Peace, even with Satan chained.

Despite his imploring for a "New Pentecost", and his expectation for a "millennium of unifications" and a "time of justice and peace", John Paul II also warned against the opportunity "to indulge in a new millenarianism":

Human life will continue, people will continue to learn about successes and failures, moments of glory and stages of decay, and Christ our Lord always will, until the end of time, be the only source of salvation. —POPE JOHN PAUL II, National Conference of Bishops, January 29th, 1996;www.vatican.va
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And so, the eschatology of hope that we are hearing both Our Lady and the popes speak about is a vindication of Christ's Word as a "witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt 24:14)

Oh! when in every city and village the law of the Lord is faithfully observed, when respect is shown for sacred things, when the Sacraments are frequented, and the ordinances of Christian life fulfilled, there will certainly be no more need for us to labor further to see all things restored in Christ… And then? Then, at last, it will be clear to all that the Church, such as it was instituted by Christ, must enjoy full and entire liberty and independence from all foreign dominion… “He shall break the heads of his enemies,” that all may know “that God is the king of all the earth,” “that the Gentiles may know themselves to be men.” All this, Venerable Brethren, We believe and expect with unshakable faith. —POPE PIUS X, E Supremi, Encyclical “On the Restoration of All Things”, n.14, 6-7

The unity of the world will be. The dignity of the human person shall be recognized not only formally but effectively. The inviolability of life, from the womb to old age… Undue social inequalities will be overcome. The relations between peoples will be peaceful, reasonable and fraternal. Neither selfishness, nor arrogance, nor poverty… [shall] prevent the establishment of a true human order, a common good, a new civilization. —POPE PAUL VI, Urbi et Orbi Message, April 4th, 1971
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Note: since the popes are speaking about this renaissance that includes the Sacraments and "the womb" and "old age", they are speaking about a temporary triumph of the Church within history.

 

I think there is one important point here that many opponents of the Era of Peace are missing. A particular passage of Scripture meaning one thing does not preclude its application to another thing as well. Even if the "first resurrection" can be taken to refer to Baptism, or to the Beatific Vision the elect soul enjoys after death before the Last Judgment (i.e. the "resurrection" of the soul), that does not exclude it also referring to some sort of temporal event.

E.g., Genesis 6-9 refers to a type of Baptism and to an actual historical event (the Flood).

 

Cetera, once again, go back starting page 11. Stephen was warned twice and did not change his uncharitable ways.

 

I have two questions:
1) For Peter, how do you then "read" the 3 statements of the popes who teach that the second coming is the last judgment. Are they being entriely truthful, or holding part of the truth back?
2) Daniel, please explain clearly to us why liberation theology must be viewed as a form of millenarianism?

 

Peter,
I want to respond in a little more detail about Fr Gobbi's messages, since you feel that they support (if authentic) a reading implying a spiritual millenium.
I will quote from various parts of the book and then deal with the critical message 166.
In the book, Our Lady said on April 14,1990, Holy Saturday the Blessed Virgin stated:” Watch with Me in expectation and be sure in the hope that Jesus will return on the clouds of Heaven, in the splendour of His glorious Body“ and on December 8 1990:Live in love and holiness because Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, our saviour and our King is about to come to you in the splendour of His glorious Body” Now in the light of the words I quoted from the popes earlier that means its the final coming for the last judgment. It cannot be before because even Fr Ianuzzi admits that were Christ to come in the flesh before the end of the world it would be heresy.
So does Mary tell us anything about the resurrection from the dead at the last judgment? On March 29, 1991, Mary said:”He is the man of the new times. Because it is only in Him that all who have lived, died, been buried and fallen away to dry dust will rise again“ Now it should be stated that in biblical language, "new" means final perfection (something Fr Iannuzzi has not taken into consideration in his use of psalms in his 1st book) Even more explicit is this message from April 15, 1995, we read: “It is the Saturday of its long sepulchre (humanity).Soon it will come forth from the tomb in which it is lying, when Jesus will come back in glory (see note from Compendium of the Catechism at the bottom of the post) and will lead it into the new garden of His Resurrection. The great miracle of the Divine mercy is in preparation. It will repeat for the whole of humanity that which came about for my Son Jesus." If Mary is telling us about the new times soon to come, and Jesus is "the new man" of these new times, then she is enforcing the point the he will soon bring about the resurrection.
So what about the defeat of Satan. In Fr ianuzzi's theory he isnt defeated forever because he must return at the end of the temporal kingdom, so of course we would expect these messages to proclaim that fact. But they dont; in fact its the total opposite: "Finally, the Holy City must gather together humanity which has been redeemed and saved, after it has been completely freed from the slavery to Satan, sin and evil” December 8th 1992, and on April 16, 1995, Our Lady stated:” But the moment is at hand in which the Risen Christ will manifest Himself in all His power. Evil will be destroyed, Satan will be defeated forever" So ifSatan is defeated forever, then it must be the end of the world and therefore we are talking about an era with no end; a creation reborn: "Then the whole of creation, freed from the slavery of sin and death will know the splendour of a second earthly paradise in which God will dwell with you, will wipe away every tear,and there will no longer be day or night for you because the earlier things have passed away and your light will be that of the Lamb and of the new Jerusalem come down from Heaven onto the earth, ready as a bride for her Bridegroom. O great significance is that the Catechism uses the same words to describe the universe after the last judgment:"In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.“He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." Mary also allegedly said "This Holy Night (christmas) is directed towards the radiant day without nightfall. My Divine Babe, whom you are now contemplating in the manger, weeping and trembling because of the cold, will come back one day in the power of His divine glory and will bring to their fullness both time and history. Time and history will have their fulfilment; with His divine and glorious presence, He will make all things new” On September 8 1990, we read words which sum up all these facts pertaining to the end of the world, not before a temporal era: "In fact the immense sorrow of these last times is preparing for the birth of a new age, of new times, in which Jesus will come in the splendor of His glory and will establish His reign in the world. Then the whole of creation, freed from the slavery of sin and death will know the splendour of a second earthly paradise in which God will dwell with you, will wipe away every tear,and there will no longer be day or night for you because the earlier things have passed away and your light will be that of the Lamb and of the new Jerusalem come down from Heaven onto the earth, ready as a bride for her Bridegroom" and also we read "The new era, which I am preparing for you, coincides with the defeat of Satan and of his universal dominion. All of his power is destroyed. He is bound with all the evil spirits, and enclosed in Hell, from which he will not be able to get out to do harm in the world. In it Christ reigns, in the Splendour of his glorious Body" In 1997 Mary states the triumph of her Immaculate Heart is total and complete in the second coming of Jesus: "Everything has been revealed to you: my plan has been foretold to you especially in its marvelous and victorious fulfillment.I have announced to you the Triumph of My Immaculate Heart in the world.In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph. This will come about in the greatest triumph of Jesus who will bring into the world His glorious reign of love, justice and peace and will make all things new. Open your hearts to hope.Throw open the doors to Christ who is coming to you in glory”
So the evidence is overwhelming. At no point in the messages is rev 20 mentioned (even though many times Mary did quote scripture), at no time are we told the era is temporary. As the Magisterium teaches, so Mary says Jesus is soon to return in his glorious body to defeat satan (and the antichrist) forever. She tells us there will be no more death; and that is something that all the adherents of the spiritual millenium cannot accept (because death will continue in the temporal kingdom).
So finally what about the message 166? Does that one message in the entire book leave the door open when Mary supposedly states about three comings? Well unfortunately not. Here is the passage (and I am going to highlight several parts which are the most important in a proper reading of it:
"In this night, darkness covers everything, and silence has now dimmed every sound, when suddenly a new light pours forth from Heaven and the festive voices of Angels resound along the deserted roadways of the world.The desert of the world opens to receive its God who is born of Me in his human life.His second coming, beloved sons, will be like the first. As was his birth on this night, so also will be the return of Jesus in glory, before his final coming for the last judgement, the hour of which is still hidden in the secrets of the Father.
The world will be completely covered in the darkness of the denial of God, of its obstinate rejection of Him and of rebellion against his Law of love. The coldness of hatred will still cause the roadways of this world to be deserted. Almost no one will be ready to receive Him." December 24, 1978.
So in the misreading of this, Mary simply talks of 3 comings, but actually if you take in the context (her words before and after), it becomes clear the reference to the "return in glory" and "final coming for the last judgment" are the same event. Mary begins by painting the picture of the world's spiritual life before Jesus came in his first coming ( darkness covers everything, the world is a desert). then She says as it was then (spiritually speaking) so it will be repeated before his second coming when he returns in glory at the last judgment. Why? Mary says the world will again be covered in darkness, the roadways of the world will again be like deserts. So she links the two events by describing them in the same way. Frankly it is somewhat strange how this was missed or not properly understood, but as a simple piece of literature, this context makes perfect sense -as it must because it then complements everything else Mary allegedly spoke to Fr Gobbi.
And to end I would repeat what Fr Gobbi said in the intro to the blue book-that we naturally read these messages in the light of the magisterium's teaching, thereofore, what does the magisterium say about the phrase "the return of Jesus in glory" (which Peter and Mark would have us believe is the third "middle coming"?) I quote from the compendium to the Catechism promulgated by Pope Benedict XVI"133. How does the Lord Jesus now reign?
668-674
680
As the Lord of the cosmos and of history, the Head of his Church, the glorified Christ mysteriously remains on earth where his kingdom is already present in seed and in its beginning in the Church. One day he will return in glory but we do not know the time. Because of this we live in watchful anticipation, praying “Come, Lord” (Revelation 22:20).

134. How will the coming of the Lord in glory happen?

 

My point is not that liberation theology must be viewed as a form of millenarianism; my point is that condemnations of extreme liberation theology cannot be taken to also be condemnations of the notion of a coming Era of Peace; for the two are completely opposite in the most substantial possible way; with liberation theology being secular and political in origin, and the Era of Peace being Divine in origin. For it is not the anticipation of temporal glory that garners Church condemnation for liberation theology, but the supposition that such a thing can be constructed by man's political effort. It is like eschatological palagianism, whereas the anticipation of an Era of Peace simply consists in longing for what Christ Himself promised, and praying that it may become so soon by His power.

 

I've never seen liberation theology declared as the pathway to or the means to arrive to the Era of Peace. It seems that liberation theology has within it the temptation to attach itself solely to this earth when this new era of the fulfillment of the Our Father can only come via a Merciful intervention where the Holy Spirit is the "mechanism" for transforming this earth, the only one we really can speak of through our senses and how its history has been related to us with all of its contained limitations. That will be gone with no memory or desire to remember it. Not only the earth is being renewed but we too must be "recreated" in order to even benefit and relate to this "renewed earth". That's why those who think that after being tried by the tribulation and keeping the faith will then simply move forward on the same terra firma and sort of pull up a type of recreated early Church community by their own bootstraps have to admit that they have no idea just what this new garden's face, preternatural gifts and new kind of light et al, will possibly be like with current limited knowledge and understanding....unless some of them also receive some kind of vision that would require new eyes!!

 

Watch with Me in expectation and be sure in the hope that Jesus will return on the clouds of Heaven, in the splendour of His glorious Body“ and on December 8 1990:Live in love and holiness because Jesus Christ, our Redeemer, our saviour and our King is about to come to you in the splendour of His glorious Body” Now in the light of the words I quoted from the popes earlier that means its the final coming for the last judgment.

Not necessarily since at the time of the Divine Will living among the creatures as willed from the beginning by the Father, those living in the Divine Will will be, as Luisa describes, "fused" in that Divine Will, in Him, so that the Lord will be living in His creatures to an extent never realized up until then since the time of Adam before the fall. He gives us the greatest gift of Himself, His Body, living in us as one with no attachment to our own will any longer and in the "Splendor of Creation"!

 

Cmon Fatima. It was a hard call on Stephen. Warnings from Peter B dont really count, as he was involved in the debate.
And one warning from Padraig which he hardly transgressed , just giving back what he got from Peter.

Let Stephen back in the debate. This is his area of expertise.
Pope Francis wants some heated debate,
and it is the year of Mercy.
How about showing a little to Stephen.

The ball is really in Marks court on this. If Mark would have it, I am sure Padraig would allow his return.

View attachment 4966

 

I agree, Crewdog. The over-emphasis on prophecy being "approved" has neutered the Church's ability (and obligation) to discern the prophetic words in our times—many of them often spoken around coffee tables as we "watch and pray." I think the most critical case in point is Medjugorje. The heart of the messages, which are basically the teachings of the Catechism, are so crucial to this hour, that by the time people realize it, it will be far too late. It already is for many...

Bishops simply don't have time to investigate every single claim (and there are many). Not only that, but even approved prophecy is being ignored by Catholics because "it is not necessary for salvation." While this is strictly true, ignoring what is almost certainly God's message is most certainly imprudent, especially when Heaven is giving us specific remedies to our ailments (eg. Fatima!). Controversial theologian, Karl Rahner, asked, "whether anything God reveals can be unimportant", and theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar said: "One can therefore simply ask why God provides [revelations] continuously [in the first place if] they hardly need to be heeded by the Church." (from Christian Prophecy, Niels Christian Hidt)

Very simply, if a prophecy does not contradict, improve or correct Sacred Tradition, then it's probably safe to ponder (but that does not guarantee that it is divine in origin as opposed to a personal meditation or intuition). Another test is whether it bears good fruit, i.e. peace, joy, etc., even if a prophetic word is alarming.

We have to stop being so afraid of the Holy Spirit! We have all the tools we need at hand: the Bible, Catechism and the Magisterium. So we need to do what St. Paul says, "test everything," and then get on with living the Gospel!

 

You are contradicting yourself here Mark. The Catechism explicitly states that the most dangerous form of millenarianism is a political form of secular messianism. How can the possibly be a political secular messianic form of Christ coming in the Flesh to rule with the resurrected saints for a thousand years?

The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism. CCC 676

 

Forgive me, how does my statement contradict the Catechism when it is a direct copy of it? I stated that there was the religious aspect and also the political aspect. This is exactly what the Catechism says: the religious aspect included Christ, the "intrinsically perverse" form, like Communism, is of the spirit of antichrist.

Sorry Emmett, maybe I'm too tired to get your fine point here...

 

Mark,
Ultimately, the problem here is that you do not agree with the popes who rule out the theological notion that the earth as it is today or tomorrow can never bring the conditions of a just and peaceful life. Fr Ianuzzi used the word terrestial paradise, and yet St John Paul II in his apostolic exhortation Ecclesia in Europa stated: "Yet, as the Synod Fathers made clear, “man cannot live without hope: life would become meaningless and unbearable”. Often those in need of hope believe that they can find peace in fleeting and insubstantial things. In this way, hope, restricted to this world and closed to transcendence, is identified, for example, with the paradise promised by science or technology, with various forms of messianism." It really is very simple actually, they bring to life Jesus' words to Pilate that "my Kingdom is not of this world". If it was, then in a sense Jesus would become a political leader. Only through the eschatological passover can this occur.
I still firmly believe you have a "Darth Vader" redemption moment coming in terms of this theory. I think in time you will come to see the truth of Jesus words in the parable of the wheat and weeds. If you truly want to be under Peter's authority then eventually you will. Sumit to his teaching authority and just let go of the millenial fantasies
peace
Bill

 

Someone still needs to explain why liberation theology is a form of millenarianism unless they agree with Benedict XVI who said it was because it promised the conditions for a just life immediately. On that basis, it doesnt take hardly anything for a declaration of millenarianism to be called when the suggestion is made that peace and well being can be found on earth this side of the final coming of the Lord. That is a question that will linger over this thread until a millenialist can come up with a theological answer.

 

I think you are confusing the the period of peace with some sort of Utopia in which all sin and evil and suffering disappear.

Nowhere did the Popes rule out that society cannot live justly and peacefully. In fact, it is possible for society to live justly and peacefully right now, just as it is possible for individuals to live justly and peacefully right now. This does not mean that sin and suffering would disappear, but if a majority of society was baptized, living in a state of grace and united with the Catholic Church, then society would be a much different place. There have been periods in history that have been more peaceful than others. There have been periods in history that have been more Christian than others. There have been periods in history when the dominant culture was Christian and led by Christian rulers who submitted to the authority and jurisdiction of the Church. But since the Enlightenment, the West has been ruled by godless Freemasons and the efforts of the Freemasons culminated in the most bloody, godless, brutal century in history: the 20th Century. But that could change tomorrow. As I cited earlier from The Teachings of the Catholic Church:

"It is not easy to contradict people and prove them to be wrong if they profess a hope in some mighty triumph of Christ here on earth before the final consummation of all things. Such an occurrence is not excluded, is not impossible, it is not at all certain that there may not be a prolonged period of triumphant Christianity before the end. The point of division between the legitimate aspirations of devout souls and the aberrations of false millenarism is this: the Chiliasts - as believers in the millennium are called, from the Greek word for thousand - seem to expect a coming of Christ and a presence of him in glory and majesty on this earth which would not be the consummation of all things but would still be a portion of the history of mankind. This is not consonant with Catholic dogma. The coming of Christ int he second Advent - the Parousia, as it is is called technically - in orthodox Christianity is the consummation of all things, the end of human history. If before that final end there is to be a period, more or less prolonged, of triumphant sanctity, such a result will be brought about, not by the apparition of the Person of Christ in Majesty but by the operation of those powers of sanctification which are now at work, the Holy Ghost and the Sacraments of the Church. The Chiliasts of all times and shades of opinion, and there are many to be found even today, seem to despair, not only of the world, but even of that dispensation of grace which was inaugurated at Pentecost; they expect from the visible presence of Christ a complete conversion of the world, as if such a happy result could not be otherwise brought about. They have still to learn the meaning of Christ's words to the Apostles: 'It is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you.'"