Divine Will revisited.

ASSERTION: That there could be a "first resurrection" before the Final Judgment is contrary to the Church's teaching on a particular judgment since Lumen Gentium teaches, 'For before we reign with Christ in glory, all of us will be made manifest "before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil" and at the end of the world "they who have done good shall come forth unto resurrection of life; but those who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment".' (N. 48)

RESPONSE: Each person, upon death, enters into a "particular judgment" based upon his works, "whether good or evil." At the end of the world, there will be a judgment of "the living and dead." Augustine's fourth model leaves only a resurrection at the culmination of time. However, St. John and the early Church Fathers who received this teaching directly from him, taught that the judgment of the "living and the dead" were elements at the beginning and end of the "day of the Lord," which comes "at the end of the world." That is, it is a matter of Tradition that "the day of the Lord" is not a 24 hour period.

Behold, the Day of the Lord shall be a thousand years. —Letter of Barnabas, The Fathers of the Church, Ch. 15​

And again,

…this day of ours, which is bounded by the rising and the setting of the sun, is a representation of that great day to which the circuit of a thousand years affixes its limits. —Lactantius, Fathers of the Church: The Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 14, Catholic Encyclopedia; www.newadvent.org
​

Scripture clearly identifies a judgment of the living before the "thousand years" against "the beast and false prophet":

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. (Rev 19:11)​

Tradition affirms that this judgment prepares the Body of Christ, like a Bride, for the eternal wedding feast of the Lamb, by fulfilling the Pater Noster when "thy Kingdom come" and God's will be done "on earth as it is in heaven"...

He [man] shall be actually disciplined beforehand for incorruption, and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father. —St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Church Father (140–202 A.D.); Adversus Haereses, Irenaeus of Lyons, Bk. 5, Ch. 35, The Fathers of the Church, CIMA Publishing Co.
​

....and fulfilling the words of St. Paul:

…cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:26-27)​

Some biblical scholars observe that in this text, the washing with water recalls the ritual ablution which preceded the wedding—something which constituted an important religious rite also among the Greeks. —POPE JOHN PAUL II, The Theology of the Body—Human Love in the Divine Plan; Pauline Books and Media, Pg. 317​

This judgment of the living, that includes the "spiritual blessings" of the "millennium" upon the Church, concludes when fire falls from heaven and destroys the last manifestation of rebellion, "Gog and Magog" (the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire.) Then proceeds the judgment of the dead, which is clearly a separate event that ends time and history, but is part of the General Judgment "at the end of the world" that is of both the "living and the dead" with the arrival of the "day of the Lord":

Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. (Rev 20:11-13)​

​

ASSERTION: The "first resurrection" promoted by Fr. Iannuzzi is in error because Pope Benedict XII in Benedictus Deus taught that, after the particular judgment of each individual, and "after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever."

RESPONSE: It depends what "interruption" means. Obviously, the assertion is that those who have entered into particular judgment with God cannot interact again in time. However, this is a protestant heresy that the Church has rejected, and which Scripture and history has proven to be incorrect (and which I contend, is not the intention that is being ascribed to Benedict XII.)

For one, Our Lord Himself was able to commune in the flesh after His Resurrection. Furthermore, a direct contradiction to the assertion above, is what took place in Jerusalem:

The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. (Matt 27:51-53)​

Furthermore, the mystical testimony of the Church includes many physical apparitions, or rather "interruptions", of souls from Heaven, chief among them, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Thus, when Scripture teaches that those who did not take the mark of the beast will rise again with Christ, it is not contrary to Catholic Tradition:

Scripture and Patristic allegories further suggest that these martyred will not return to definitively reign on earth in the flesh, but will “appear” throughout the era to instruct the remant of Israel, much like the visions and apparitions of the saints of the past. —Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi, The Splendor of Creation, The Triumph of the Divine Will on Earth and the Era of Peace in the Writings of the Church Fathers, Doctors and Mystics, p. 69

Those who on the strength of this passage [Rev 20:1-6] , have suspected that the first resurrection is future and bodily, have been moved, among other things, specially by the number of a thousand years, as if it were a fit thing that the saints should thus enjoy a kind of Sabbath-rest during that period... And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints, in that Sabbath, shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God… —St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.; Church Doctor), De Civitate Dei, Bk. XX, Ch. 7 (Catholic University of America Press)​

I and every other orthodox Christian feel certain that there will be a resurrection of the flesh followed by a thousand years in a rebuilt, embellished, and enlarged city of Jerusalem, as was announced by the Prophets Ezekiel, Isaias and others… A man among us named John, one of Christ’s Apostles, received and foretold that the followers of Christ would dwell in Jerusalem for a thousand years, and that afterwards the universal and, in short, everlasting resurrection and judgment would take place. —St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 81, The Fathers of the Church, Christian Heritage​

Regarding the exact nature of what the Church Fathers are saying, I agree, is still enshrouded in mystery. States theologian, Cardinal Jean Daniélou (1905-1974):

The essential affirmation is of an intermediate stage in which the risen saints are still on earth and have not yet entered their final stage, for this is one of the aspects of the mystery of the last days which has yet to be revealed. —A History of Early Christian Doctrine Before the Council of Nicea, 1964, p. 377 ("on earth" to be understood also as interacting, given the above)
​

See The Last Judgments.

 

A comparison of eschatology in the writings of Fr Gobbi with the messages of the approved apparitions of Itapiranga (1994-1998)


Moving on from Fr Gobbi's 'Blue Book', I would now like to move the 1994-1998 messages to Edson Glauber and Maria do Carmo during the public phase of the Itapiranga apparitions approved as being supernatural in origin by Bishop Carillo Gritti in 2009. While obviously still considering this material fallible, it is a substantial and theologically rich body of messages (300 pages in the Portuguese original, which I have now read twice) even if for the purposes of the current study we bracket out completely the now 18 years of ongoing purported locutions and visions to Edson Glauber after 1998.

My rationale for concentraing on this material is that the Itapiranga apparitions enjoy a level of Church approval which is quite exceptional given that the seers involved are still alive. It was Bishop Gritti who himself laid the cornerstone of a new sanctuary in Itapiranga in May 2010, plans for which you can see over at

http://www.santuariodeitapiranga.co.../25-conteudo/geral/130-projeto-santuario.html

In other words, if anything in the field of contemporary private revelation can be said to be 'approved' at the present time, this is it, meaning that the material from Itapiranga can arguably constitute a 'control group' against which to test other writings ... such as those of Fr Gobbi.

For the purposes of this thread I will restrict quotations to message extracts dealing explicitly with eschatological questions, although there is much else here...

My own comments/alternative translations are in square brackets

22.06.94

Here in the state of Amazonia, I have chosen the town of Itapiranga for the end of the times [o final dos tempos]. In the other places where my apparitions are occurring and where my messages are being given, this is already stopping. Here in Itapiranga it will begin.

Aqui no estado do Amazonas, eu escolhi a cidade de Itapiranga para o final dos tempos. Nos outros lugares, onde estão ocorrendo as Minhas aparições e dando Minhas mensagens, já está terminando. E aqui, em Itapiranga irá começar."


[P.B. The key question for our discussion is how to interpret the words 'o final dos tempos'. Does it mean the end of the world, or the end of the present age? This can only be properly discerned in context as we read on; in time it will become clear that it is the second meaning which is intended]

29.10.94

A great chastisement is approaching for the whole world and it is already very close! Many will suffer if there is no conversion

Um grande castigo se aproxima para o mundo inteiro e já está muito próximo! Muitos sofrerão, caso não haja conversão

 

Pray Pray Pray

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga cntd. Comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

ITAPIRANGA
2.5.95
The angels of the Lord are in a great battle against the army of our enemy [...] My little children, pray for the Holy Father John Paul II. The world needs to accept my heavenly messages, because the days in which you are living are ones of great danger [...] Consecrate yourselves to our Sacred Hearts and you will be guarded against all the dangers which are about to befall the entire world: sad and desolate things, to warn you that Jesus, my beloved Son, is very sad and about to unleash more strongly his divine anger upon all ungrateful sinners.*

Os anjos do Senhor se encontram numa grande batalha contra o exército do nosso inimigo. [...] Filhinhos rezem pelo Santo Padre João Paulo II. O mundo precisa aceitar as minhas mensagens celestes, pois os dias que vocês vivem são de grande perigo.[...] Consagrem-se aos nossos Sagrados Corações e ficarão guardados de todos os perigos que estão prestes a desabar sobre o mundo inteiro: coisas
tristes e desoladoras, para alertar-lhes que Jesus, meu Filho amado, está muito triste e prestes a descarregar mais fortemente a sua divina cólera sobre todos os pecadores ingratos.

[* These words emphasize that we are not merely talking about disasters/catastrophes as purely natural phenomena but as also expressing divine anger, judgment]

31.1.96

The world is nearing the end: prepare yourselves with many prayers, praying for those who are still seeing nothing, even with their eyes wide open, my children.

O mundo está perto do final: preparem-se com muitas orações, rezando por aqueles que ainda não estão vendo nada mesmo de olhos arregalados, meus filhos.

30.3.96

[... - extensive message] My little ones, may the chaplet be your weapon. Your Heavenly Mother insists so much on the daily prayer of the holy chaplet/rosary, since it is by means of this humble prayer that we will defeat all the cunning and arrogance of the infernal dragon.

Meus pequeninos, o terço seja a sua arma. Sua Mãe do Céu insiste tanto na reza diária do santo terço, pois é por meio desta humilde oração que nós iremos derrotar toda a astúcia e soberba do dragão infernal.

[...] Our Sacred Hearts will destroy with the ardent flames of purest love all the evil that Satan has spread in this world among my sinful children. Our sacred Hearts will triumph, my children, be certain of this and all those who are within these our Heart will be happy. Their joy will so great that it cannot be compared to anything in this world. Their joy will be complete, following the promise of my Divine Son. When the Holy Spirit inflames all hearts with the fire of his love, then all humanity will burn with the holy desire to want God above all things and everything that is of the world will no longer have a place in their hearts because God alone will be their unique treasure and he alone will be their true treasure.

[...] Os nossos Sagrados Corações destruirão com as chamas ardentes de puríssimo amor todo mal que satanás espalhou neste mundo entre os meus filhos pecadores. Os nossos sagrados Corações triunfarão meus filhos, tenham certeza disto e felizes serão todos aqueles que estiverem dentro destes nossos Corações. A sua alegria será tão grande que não poderá igualar-se a nada neste mundo. Sua alegria será completa conforme a promessa de meu divino Filho. Quando o Espírito Santo abrasar todos os corações com o fogo do seu amor, então toda a humanidade arderá num desejo santo de querer a Deus sobre todas as coisas e tudo o que é do mundo já não terá mais espaço em seu coração porque só Deus será o seu único tesouro e somente ele será o seu verdadeiro tesouro

9.4.96

I am always with you, praying and watching over each one of you until the day when my Son Jesus will return to seek you, when I will entrust all [of you] to him. It is for this that you are hearing about many apparitions of mine in many parts and various places in the world. It is your Heavenly Mother who for centuries and every day has been coming from heaven to visit her dear children, preparing them and enlivening them on their way in the world towards the meeting with her Son Jesus Christ in his second coming.*

Eu estou sempre com vocês orando e velando por cada um até o dia em que meu Filho Jesus voltar para busca-los, quando entregarei todos a ele. É por isso que vocês ouvem falar de muitas aparições minhas em muitas partes e em vários lugares do mundo. É a sua Mãe Celeste que vem há séculos e todos os dias do céu visitar os seus filhos queridos, preparando-os e animando-os em sua caminhada neste mundo para o encontro com o seu Filho Jesus Cristo na sua segunda vinda.*

[P.B.* This seems to be the first explicit reference to a 'second coming' of Jesus in the Itapiranga messages. The question is whether this means the last judgment (Rev. 20) or a manifestation of Christ's glory (Rev. 19) which, while implying certainly divine judgment - the defeat of the Beast and False Prophet -, also involves the Church and leads to a renewal of the world. Again, this question can only be answered in context. It is clear from the comment on the message of 31.5.96 below that Edson Glauber himself interprets the words in the second way (much as Fr Gobbi and the MMP interpreted and continue to interpret the notion of the 'second coming'). Furthermore, the message of 12.6.96 clearly suggests such an interpretation in terms of fundamental spiritual renewal which is brought about not only by God's sovereign action but also by the prayer of the church.

31.5.96

My children, * the world is close to the end. Many sad things are to happen in the world and nobody is prepared yet.

Meus filhos, (¹)o mundo está perto do final. Muitas coisas, tristes estão para acontecer no mundo e ninguém ainda está preparado.

[...] I have appeared in so many places, but nobody listens to me... Medjugorje!... I have appeared so much in Medjugorje, but my children [or 'my sons', implying clergy] continue to be deaf, with closed hearts. And not only in Medjugorje, but in various parts of the world: Argentina, Venezuela, Spain, Italy, France, Africa, Australia, Germany, Korea and also much in Brazil.

[...] Tenho aparecido em tantos lugares, mas ninguém me escuta... Medjugorje!... Tenho aparecido ta[n]to em Medjugorje, mas os meus filhos continuam surdos, com os corações fechados. E não só em Medjugorje, mas em várias partes do mundo: Argentina, Venezuela,
Espanha, Itália, França, África, Austrália, Alemanha, Coréia e muito também no Brasil.

COMMENT FROM EDSON GLAUBER:
* Here, Our Lady does not want to speak of the end of the world, but the end of the times, which will be a very great spiritual renewal of humanity.
(¹) Aqui, Nossa Senhora quis dizer não o fim do mundo, mas os finais dos tempos, que será uma renovação espiritual muito grande na humanidade.

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga (3). Emphases, comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

12.6.96

Through your prayers and the living out of my messages the world will be renewed, living the peace which my Son so longs for among you all.

Através das suas orações e vivência das minhas mensagens o mundo será renovado, vivendo a paz que tanto meu Filho almeja entre todos vocês.

2.9.96

[...] My little children, I desire conversion, peace among all men and all families as soon as possible. It is not possible to hold back for longer the arm of My Divine Son. It is already too heavy. My Son is now ready to put a stop to the sin and ingratitude of sinful men, who offend him so with [their] sins.

Meus filhinhos, desejo a conversão, a paz entre todos os homens e entre todas as famílias o mais rápido possível. Não é possível segurar por mais tempo o braço de Meu Divino Filho. Já está pesado demais. Meu Filho já está pronto para dar um basta ao pecado e a ingratidão dos homens pecadores, que só o ofendem com pecados.

13.10.96

[...] Stop offending God Our Lord who is already very offended. Turn back, turn back, turn back as soon as possible. The arm of My Divine Son is already too heavy. The justice of God is about to fall upon all humanity. Sin no more. Repent of your sins. Pray to the Holy Spirit in order that He might enlighten you and give you true love and sincere repentance for your faults. Take My love to all My children. You are My angels, My beloved little children...

[Edson Glauber: At this point, Our Lady revealed to my one of the secrets, the saddest and greatest one. Something which must come upon the world and punish men because of their innumerable sins. The dimensions [of this] will be great unless there is a general conversion of men, and it would be terrible. It will come like a great fire. This is all that the Virgin has allowed me to reveal. Then, the Virgin continued, saying to me:]

Conversion is needed as quickly as possible.

Não ofendam mais a Deus Nosso Senhor que já está muito ofendido. Voltem, voltem, voltem o mais depressa possível. O braço de Meu Divino Filho já está pesado demais. A justiça de Deus está para cair sobre toda a humanidade. Não pequem mais. Arrependam-se de seus pecados. Rezem ao Espírito Santo para que Ele os ilumine e lhes dê o verdadeiro amor e o arrependimento sincero de suas faltas. Levem o Meu amor a todos os Meus filhos. Vocês são os Meus anjos, as Minhas queridas crianças... Neste momento, Nossa Senhora revelou-me em visão um dos segredos, que é o mais triste e o maior. Algo que deverá vir sobre o mundo e punir os homens, por causa dos seus inumeráveis pecados. Será em grandes proporções se não houver a conversão geral dos homens e seria terrível. Virá como um grande fogo. É só o que a Virgem permitiu-me revelar. Logo em seguida,

a Virgem continuou dizendo-me: É preciso a conversão o mais rápido possível.

19.10.96

I am Jesus Christ, Son of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Queen of Peace whom I the Lord sent to you in order that She might guide you, prepare you for My arrival, My second coming among you. I have sent My Holy Mother all over the world. My Mother is tireless; she tries to warn you. She wants to lead everyone on a sure path, but many refuse her Heavenly appeals, appeals which are addressed to all humanity and which currently are not received as they ought to be. I am warning you My children, that in My day all those who have scorned the messages of My Mother who is Queen of Heaven and earth will have to reckon with Me when I come as the just judge*, and I tell them that they will all be treated with rigour because they scorned the graces granted by Me through the Immaculate Heart of My Holy Mother. To the people of this town I address my exhortation: turn back, turn back to Me, for the time is already about to finish. Those who have not prepared themselves and have not converted, renouncing the life of sin and all evil will have to bear My Divine Justice which will not delay in falling soon upon all humanity.

Eu sou Jesus Cristo, Filho de Bem-Aventurada Virgem Maria, a Rainha da Paz que Eu o Senhor, envio até vocês para que Ela os oriente, os prepare para a Minha chegada, a Minha segunda vinda entre vocês. Tenho enviado a Minha Santa Mãe por todos os lugares do mundo. Minha Mãe é incansável, procura alertá-los. Quer conduzir todos pela estrada segura, mas muitos renegam os seus apelos Celestes, apelos que são dirigidos a toda a humanidade e que hoje em dia não são acolhidos como deveria. Alerto-os Meus filhos, que no Meu dia todos aqueles que desprezaram as Mensagens de Minha Mãe, que é a Rainha do Céu e da terra deverão se acertar Comigo quando Eu vir como justo juiz e lhes digo, serão todos tratados com rigor porque desprezaram as graças concedidas por Mim através do Imaculado Coração de Minha Santa Mãe. Ao povo desta cidade dirijo a Minha exortação: volta, volta a Mim, pois o tempo já está por terminar. Aqueles que não se prepararem e não se converterem renunciando a vida de pecado e todo o mal deverão suportar a Minha Justiça Divina que não tardará a cair em breve sobre toda a humanidade.

[*P.B. cf. St Faustina's diary (83), 'Before I come as the just judge, I am coming as the King of Mercy']

30.11.96

[...] I invite you to be united with My Son Jesus in love, joy and peace. Pray and watch, because My Lord wishes to see you attentive, awake and vigilant, because the time of peace and of his second coming is approaching you.*

Convido-os a se unirem com o Meu Filho Jesus no amor, na alegria e na paz. Rezem e vigiem, pois o Meu Senhor deseja vê-los atentos, despertos e vigilantes, porque se aproxima de vocês o tempo da paz e da sua segunda vinda

[* P.B. Here the 'time of peace' - an expression which clearly locates the coming of peace within time - and Christ's second coming are juxtaposed]

 

I have some thoughts and a question on these passages, Peter.

First, I believe the messages of Fr. Gobbi are divinely inspired and consistent with Catholic doctrine, as the imprimaturs etc. affirm. Now, I have always wondered about the language of Christ coming upon the "clouds in glory."

On the one hand, this is consistent with Rev. 19 and the "judgment of the living" when, before the Era of Peace, Jesus comes on the clouds riding a white horse to kill the "lawless one" (it is hard to imagine that any manifestation of Jesus won't be glorious.) All St. Paul says is that this antichrist is destroyed by Christ's appearance.

St. Thomas and St. John Chrysostom explain the words quem Dominus Jesus destruet illustratione adventus sui (“whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming”) in the sense that Christ will strike the Antichrist by dazzling him with a brightness that will be like an omen and sign of His Second Coming… The most authoritative view, and the one that appears to be most in harmony with Holy Scripture, is that, after the fall of the Antichrist, the Catholic Church will once again enter upon a period of prosperity and triumph. —The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, Fr. Charles Arminjon (1824-1885), p. 56-57; Sophia Institute Press​

So Fr. Charles, summarizing the "authoritative view", reserves the language of the "Second Coming" for the very end of time after the era of peace. So this should then be understood as a second coming "in the flesh", the first being the incarnation, the second being the very end of time. This "middle coming", as has been presented, is pneumatic in nature.

Gobbi, as you've pointed out, uses the terms "second coming" but also "Second Advent" but also speaks of the "new springtime" and Era of Peace. So we are seeing the terminology "second coming" being applied to both the "middle" and "final" coming of Jesus. This, naturally, can be confusing.

What are your thoughts? (Funny, after I posted this, I see that you are beginning to address this in Itapiranga. Actually, it's quite chilling what I just read in the Itapiranga messages, because it confirms that we are headed toward the judgment of the living, of Revelation 19. Chilling, for those who are not repenting....)

 

+
Thank you Mark. I have followed your blog for many years and have gained much from your writings. May God continue to bless you and your family for all that you do in His Name.
Peace Brother,
Ed

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga (4). Emphases, comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

ITAPIRANGA 7.12.96

From today the end of the times* has already begun. I have blessed the whole Amazon region and the whole state of Amazonia. The whole population is blessed by me, Jesus Christ, by my Mother, the Immaculate Conception, and by the angels and saints of Heaven.

*[Edson Glauber:] Jesus wishes to say the day for the great renewal of the world. This does not mean the end of the world, but it does [mean] the great transformation that will occur in humanity with the purification that God will send to the world.

7.12.96
A partir de hoje já começou o *final dos tempos. Eu já abençoei toda a Região Amazônica e a todo Estado do Amazonas. Toda a população já está abençoada por mim, Jesus Cristo, pela minha Mãe, a Imaculada Conceição e pelos anjos e santos do Céu.
(*) Jesus quer dizer o dia para o grande renovamento do mundo. Não significa o fim do mundo, mas a sim a grande transformação que se dará na humanidade com a purificação que Deus enviará ao mundo.

8.12.96

I am appearing as Queen of the Rosary and Queen of Peace, because I desire to show you that Itapiranga is united with my revelations given in Fatima and also with my final [últimas]revelations granted in Medjugorje, where I have been appearing for a long time. I want to show you that my message given here is the same as that given there. Thank you for your love. Give thanks to the Lord that I have chosen you so beautifully in order that you should all announce his kingdom of peace.

Apresentei-me como Rainha do Rosário e Rainha da Paz, porque desejo mostrar-lhes que Itapiranga está unida com as minhas revelações dadas em Fátima e também com as minhas últimas revelações concedidas por mim em Medjugorje, onde estou aparecendo por um longo tempo. Quero mostrar-lhes que a minha mensagem dada aqui é a mesma dada lá. Obrigada pelo seu amor. Agradeçam ao Senhor que os escolheu de uma maneira tão bela para que todos vocês sejam os anunciadores do seu reino de paz.

25.12.96 (Manaus)

Today the Lord is sending me to you because he wishes me to prepare you for His Second coming among you. I am the Mother of the Second Advent. As I was chosen to bring the Saviour to you, so I have again been chosen in order to prepare the way for His Second coming and it is by means of your Heavenly Mother, through the triumph of my Immaculate Heart that my Son Jesus will again be among you my children, in order to bring you His Peace, His Love, the Fire of the Holy Spirit that will renew the whole face of the earth.

O children, pay good attention: when men will be preoccupied with their own interests and games in the affairs of the world, that is when my Son Jesus will come to judge all the nations. Many will be taken by surprise [as] they will not be ready.

Hoje o Senhor me envia até vocês porque Ele deseja que eu os prepare para a Sua Segunda vinda entre vocês. Eu sou a Mãe do Segundo Advento. Assim como eu fui escolhida pra trazer o Salvador até vocês, agora sou novamente escolhida para preparar-lhe o caminho
para a sua Segunda vinda e, é por meio da Sua Mãe Celeste, através do triunfo do meu Imaculado Coração que o meu Filho Jesus estará novamente no meio de vocês filhos meus, para lhes trazer a Sua Paz, o Seu Amor, o Fogo do Espírito Santo que irá renovar toda face da
terra . Oh filhos, prestem bem atenção: quando os homens estiverem cada vez mais preocupados com os seus próprios interesses e jogados nas coisas do mundo, é quando o meu Filho Jesus virá para julgar todas as nações. Muitos serão pegos de surpresa, não estarão preparados.

[*P.B. In this Christmas message and the one to follow the parallels with the desciptions of the Second Coming in Fr Gobbi's 'Blue Book' are especially striking.]

2.1.97

Children, today, more than even I want to be, for each one of you, the Guide who will lead you to Jesus. I am your Mother, and as Mother, I have the mission given by God of preparing you, in order that each [of you] should have an open heart to receive him in his second Coming which is already approaching. Listen, children, to what I tell you: all those who let themselves be formed by my will have the great happiness of receiving my Son Jesus, who will come in the glory of Heaven, surrounded by his innumerable angels and saints from Heaven. Rejoice, children, because your liberation is approaching. Happy those who will be prepared to welcome my Divine Son Jesus Christ. They will shine beside the Lord in heavenly glory. Soon the Lord will renew the whole face of the earth through the purest fire of the Holy Spirit.


Filhos, hoje, mais do que nunca desejo ser, para cada um de vocês a Guia que os conduzirá até Jesus. Sou a sua Mãe, e como Mãe, tenho a missão dada por Deus de prepará-los, para que cada um esteja com o coração aberto para acolhê-lo na sua segunda Vinda, que já se
aproxima. Ouçam filhos, o que eu lhes falo: todos aqueles que se deixarem formar por mim, terão a grande felicidade de receber o meu Filho Jesus, que virá na glória do Céu, rodeado por seus inumeráveis anjos e santos do Paraíso. Alegrem-se filhos, porque a sua libertação se aproxima. Felizes aqueles que estiverem preparados para acolher ao meu Divino Filho Jesus Cristo. Esses brilharão ao lado do Senhor, na glória celeste. O Senhor, em breve, renovará toda a face da terra, através do fogo puríssimo do Espírito Santo.


[P.B. This seems unequivocal: the Second Coming of Christ referred to here certainly constitutes an act of eschatological judgment, but it will be the renewal of the world, not its end. At the same time, as the next message indicates, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is not merely a result of God's sovereign action, but a response to own our prayers]

6.1.97

I wish that each of you present here and all my children in the entire world should unite with me in prayer in order that together we might implore the Holy Spirit, who is now ready to be poured out again in depth over all men, thus renewing the whole of humanity.

6.1.97

Desejo que cada um de vocês aqui presente e todos os meus filhos do mundo inteiro, unam-se comigo em oração, para juntos pedirmos o Espírito Santo, que já está prestes de ser derramado novamente em profundidade sobre todos os homens, renovando assim, toda a
humanidade.

13.1.97

Children, my Immaculate Heart is open for you all. Live out the love of my Immaculate Heart and receive this night a kiss of love from your Heavenly Mother. I want to say to you: the time of conversion is already reaching an end. *Soon you will have to pass through the great purification imposed by the Lord, which[or who] will renew the face of the earth.



[Edson Glauber]: Here Our Lady speaks of the great purification which will happen in the world. Men will have a profound revelation of all their errors and sins in God's light. Only thus will they able to accord value to heavenly things and perceive how horrible it is to live far off from God and to be far from his grace.

13.1.97

Filhos, o meu Coração Imaculado está aberto para todos vocês. Vivam o amor do meu Imaculado Coração e recebam, nesta noite, um beijo de amor da sua Mãe Celeste. Desejo dizer-lhes: o tempo de conversão já está chegando ao fim. *Breve, vocês deverão passar pela
grande purificação imposta pelo Senhor, que renovará toda a face da terra.

(*) Aqui Nossa Senhora fala da grande purificação que ocorrerá no mundo. Os homens terão uma revelação profunda de todos os seus erros e pecados pela luz de Deus. Só assim eles saberão dar valor as coisas do céu e perceberem o quanto é horrível viver longe de Deus e estar longe da sua graça.

[P.B. Edson Glauber's comment here inescapably recalls the descriptions of the 'Illumination of Conscience' found in many other sources]
All translations P.B.

 

Peter, as I prayed this morning, I was moved to summarize the debate on the Era of Peace thus far, and address the aspect of judgment before and after the Era of Peace (see post #401). These messages from Itapiranga are more than just a confirmation, but a sobering reminder to all of us of the perilous times we're in.

According to one seer in North America whom I'm in contact with, Jesus gave the message this week that we have now entered "the time of correction."

 

My thought here, looking not only at Fr Gobbi but also what emerges from the Itapiranga material (which is as approved as it gets...) is that the Second Coming described is BOTH visible AND pneumatic (when it comes to dealing with controversies, I'm a great fan of 'both-and' rather than 'either-or' thinking). The pneumatic element, i.e. the Second Pentecost transforming not only the Body of Christ from within but also the face of the earth itself, goes together logically with the Second Coming because we are not tritheists - because of the mutual indwelling of the Divine Persons, the whole Trinity always acts together.

My gut feeling is that we have all complicated this eschatological question enormously by having to dance around, well, the historical prestige of Augustine and having to couch things in such a way as not to violate the default position of the millennial tradition which has nonetheless never been officially dogmatized. Bracket the great Doctor of the Church out of the equation in this particular case and there would be no issue about how to interpret this material (and it might be worth remembering that in Itapiranga Our Lady was appearing largely to simple people, not systematic theologians). The Second Coming seems to be what it says on the packet, exactly as Our Lord and the angels at the Ascension described. So... paradoxically, I actually agree with Stephen Walford here that we are headed for the Second Coming, but at the same time it's also the 'middle coming' and not the Last Judgment at the end of time: Christ's judgment on his enemies as in Rev 19 prior to the establishment of his Reign, but not the end of the planet.

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga (5). Emphases, comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

15.1.97

O, beloved children, my Immaculate Heart suffers greatly. Stop offending my Son Jesus. He is already very offended. Why are you still sinning so much? If men do not pay attention to my appeals, soon divine chastisement will fall upon them all. The divine chastisement will come in the form of a great clap of thunder and fire will fall from heaven.

Ó, filhos amados, o meu Imaculado Coração sofre muito. Não ofendam mais o meu Filho Jesus. Ele já esta muito ofendido. Por que vocês ainda pecam tanto? Se os homens não atenderem aos meus apelos, breve, o castigo divino cairá sobre todos eles. O castigo divino
virá na forma de um grande trovão (thunderclap) e um fogo cairá do céu.

2.2.97

Wait confidently, for we are arriving in order to seek you for the glory of heaven. Happy those who will be prepared to receive my Son Jesus in his second coming. Prepare yourselves. Soon we will see each other, face to face and eye to eye. You Mother will come with her Son Jesus, in order to welcome you into her Immaculate Heart. I am already counting the days so that we can be all together in order to praise and thank the Lord for the fulfillment of his promise, which is already being realized in this end of the times.


Esperem com confiança, pois já estamos chegando para buscá-los para a glória dos céus. Felizes aqueles que estiverem preparados para acolher o meu Filho Jesus na sua segunda vinda. Preparem-se. Breve vamos nos ver, face a face, e olho no olho. Sua Mãe virá com o seu Filho Jesus, para acolhê-los no seu Coração Imaculado. Já conto os dias para que possamos estar todos juntos para louvarmos e agradecermos ao Senhor pelo cumprimento da sua promessa, que já está se realizando neste final dos tempos.

11.2.97

Soon grand tribulations will come, great offenses directed against God, when perverse men guided by Satan wil try to abolish the perpetual sacrifice of my divine Son, leaving my poor children unable to receive the Eucharistic Sacrament. They will be terrible days, days of darkness, when God's justice, no longer able to bear such blasphemy, will make fall from Heaven [something] like a terrible flame which will strike all those who are striving to destroy everthing that he built and created, for your own sanctification. Dear children, I come to tell you that the times of great darkness for the Church are now approaching. I say this as to beloved children: perverse men will persecute even the blood of my poor and beloved sons of predilection [i.e. priests]. Many will be martyred for love of God and the Holy Church.

Breve, chegarão grandes tribulações, grandes ofensas dirigidas contra Deus, quando os homens perversos guiados por satanás, tentarão abolir o sacrifício perpétuo de meu divino Filho, deixando os meus pobres filhos sem receber o Sacramento Eucarístico. Serão dias terríveis, dias de trevas, quando a justiça de Deus, não suportando mais tamanha blasfêmia fará cair do Céu como urna chama
terrível que golpeará a todos aqueles que lutaram para destruir tudo aquilo que ele construiu e criou, para a própria santificação de vocês. Queridos filhos, venho lhes dizer que os tempos de grandes trevas para a Igreja já se aproximam. Como dói filhos amados dizer-lhes isto: os homens perversos perseguirão até o sangue os meus pobres e queridos filhos prediletos. Muitos serão martirizados por amor a Deus e à Santa Igreja

 

I think you've really nailed it on the head. Augustine's interpretation, the more it is scrutinized, creates the greatest amount of confusion. It requires mind-bending mental gymnastics that simply butchers the clear chronology of Rev 19-20, and de facto discards what are some of the strongest teachings of the Church Fathers, as they attribute them to being heard in person, directly from St. John.

Those who suggest that we are entering only a minor tribulation without an antichrist, I think, are ignoring not only this great body of evidence, but the signs of the times:

…if we study but a moment the signs of the present time, the menacing symptoms of our political situation and revolutions, as well as the progress of civilization and the increasing advance of evil, corresponding to the progress of civiliation and the discovers in the material order, we cannot fail to foresee the proximity of the coming of the man of sin, and of the days of desolation foretold by Christ. —The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, Fr. Charles Arminjon (1824-1885), p. 58; Sophia Institute Press​

 

Exactly. The point about the proximity of the Antichrist is critical... And as I tried to hint in a recent piece for the British Jesuit online journal Thinking Faith
http://www.thinkingfaith.org/articles/pope-francis-hermeneutic-conspiracy-and-‘three-f’s’
it looks very much as if this thought is not alien to Pope Francis and Pope Emeritus Benedict (who according to Cardinal Dias remarked that Fr Gobbi 'went straight to heaven' when he died, by the way). Why else would Benedict XVI have referred on more than one occasion to Soloviev's Short Tale of the Antichrist, and why has Pope Francis been recommending Robert Hugh Benson's The Lord of the World ? Read that chilling novel about the rise to world power of the Masonic Antichrist figure Julian Felsenburgh and the answer is pretty unambiguous, I think.

 

Read it. Absolutely prophetic—a startling parallel to our times, and what we can see emerging even now through moral relativism:

…the reconciliation of the world on a basis other than that of Divine Truth… there was coming into existence a unity unlike anything known in history. This was the more deadly from the fact that it contains so many elements of indubitable good. War, apparently, was now extinct, and it was not Christianity that had done it; union was now seen to be better than disunion, and the lesson had been learned apart from the Church… Friendliness took the place of charity, contentment the place of hope, and knowledge the place of faith. —Lord of the World, Robert Hugh Benson, 1907, p. 120​

cf. The Black Ship - Part I

 

Both of your referenced books are chillingly accurate. Here is a link to Soloviev's Short Tale of the Antichrist.

http://www.goodcatholicbooks.org/antichrist.html

A big thank you to Mark Mallett for all of his study and time spent evangelizing to us all. And also to Peter for bringing me the prophecies of Edson Glauber and his mother, Maria do Carmo. I am just beginning to pour over all of your information on these seers.

And Joe, I love Our Lady of Garabandal and look forward to the prophecies coming to fruition. I heard Maria Saracco speak so passionately about Garabandal and Mari Loli and all of the seers.

I don't chase after the Blessed Mother; she chases after me. And I thank God that she catches me. Much discernment and patience is required. But what a gift for all of us who take the time to respond to the invitation to deepen our relationship with God and our Blessed Mother. It may not be for everyone, but it's for me.

 

Yes, read that too—just as prescient. There is a reason the popes have been compelled to highlight these works...

 

It's a good idea to summarise our previous arguments, and I will attempt to do the same when I have time. You have completely misconstrued my arguments in that assertion somewhat though, and you should amend them to suit, since it totally misrepresents what I am saying. Even I don't understand that conclusion of my argument you have drafted above, let alone anyone else! I will explain it further, and you will need to answer in turn. I pointed out that there couldn't be a future "first resurrection" when the souls of the righteous will be reunited to their bodies at the start of a future earthly millennium since the infallible teaching of the Church firmly states that the souls of the just will remain uninterupted in the beatific vision until the general resurrection of the dead in their physical bodies, which can only take place immediately before the Last Judgment. What yourself and Fr. Iannuzzi are proposing is that the souls of the righteous dead who are currently enjoying the beatific vision will at some point in the future be torn from their face-to-face encounter with Christ and be resurrected bodily on earth for a thousand years even before the bodily general resurrection of the dead at the end of time taught by the Church, and then continue to exist in a material realm where suffering and death will always exist, away from the Holy Face of Christ in a temporal spiritual milliennial kingdom which will then end with the unchaining of Satan and the coming of Gog and Magog before a third coming of Christ, and then once again be bodily resurrected at the end of time before the judgment seat of Christ. This theory just doesn't make any sense at all, and directly contravenes several Church doctrines. The Church plainly teaches that there are are only two resurrections - one of the soul and one of the body. The first resurrection, that of the soul, was won by Christ on Calvary, when Satan was chained in order to allow the apostles to spread the Gospel to the end of the earth, after Christ had descended into Hell before His Resurrection. The second resurrection is that of the body, which will only occur at the end of time, before the Last Judgment. I'm only just scratching the surface of the faults in the spiritual millenniallist position here, which are impossible to reconcile with the infallible Dogmas of the Church - I've only covered a tiny portion of them so far. There are no such faults to be found in the Augustinian model. Just wait until I get to the coming of the Kingdom! One of these theories is built upon sand, the other upon rock.

 

It seems to me that one of the key issues that could move this debate forward is the position and theology of Joseph Ratzinger; a figure I am sure we all agree is of the greatest importance to the church of the past century-and surely the future as well. Fr Iannuzzi and Mark Mallett have used him as the one recent theologian of great stature who has left the door open to this spiritual millenium. The question is of course, does his theology and papal magisterium back this up with hard evidence. Ratzinger is no stranger to this debate; eschatology being one of his favourite topics. In his volume of dogmatic theology "Death and Eternal Life" he delves into the issues with great clarity, and posits himself firmly in the Augustinian camp." Eschatology's meaning and driving force depend on the power of waiting for Christ, not on temporal expectation of the world's end or transformation, no matter of what kind" pg.11. He addresses the notion of the Kingdom of God, dimissing the idea that history can see the kind of fulfilment Fr Iannuzzi mantains: "The Kingdom of God which Christ promises does not consist in a modification of our earthly circumstances...Clearly such a transformation can only take place through death. For this reason the Kingdom of God, salvation in its fulness, cannot be deprived of its connection with dying"pg 62. Turning to the issue of millenarianism,Ratzinger rightly points out that various forms (not just the versions Fr Iannuzzi would have us believe) have been rejected by the Church; " As early as the patristic Church, steps were taken to eliminate chiliasm through an effort to preserve biblical tradition in its proper form). The joachimist dispute (Joachim of Fiore's 13th century idea of the age of the Holy Spirit) filled the thirteenth century and, in part the fourteenth also ending with a renewed rejection of this particular form of hope for the future. The present day theologies of liberation belong in this context" pg.212. This is a reminder of his comments in 2007 on the plane to Brazil that liberation theology is a form of millenarianism because it promised conditions of a just life here and now (meaning within history). That comment alone should make any adherents of the spiritual millenium realize that there is no place for it within the magisterium of the Church. Continuing from his book he writes" the christian hope knows no idea of an inner fulfilment of history. On the contrary, it affirms the impossibility of an inner fulfilment of the world" Explaining why this is the case (in words echoing those of Pope St John XXIII) he states" This position is also rationally correct, since the idea of a definitive intra-historical fulfilment fails to take into account the premanent openess of history and human freedom , for which failure is always a possibility" pg 213
What we have here is absolute clarity from the future pope written long before the supposed answer he gave to Fr Pernasa. It should be noted that in any case, we were never told that exact question; it is most probable that the question generalised the concept of a renewal of Christian life in the 3rd millenium- and thus Ratzinger could say (as he did in Salt of the Earth )that renewal and unification are an open question. In terms of a temporal era of peace based on Rev 20, the door is firmly shut.

 

I suspect you guys will be totally back footed when you see The Divine Will finding perfect expression in the fulfilment of the Prophesies and witness of Garabandal as they have been given, nothing added, nothing taken away. The preview given to the seers on the first 'Night of Screams' of the Tribulation that we are about to endure was utterly terrifying and the screams of the girls drove everyone to confession the next day. The comment was later made that terrifying as the preview of the Tribulation was it was not even the Chastisement that was shown on the second night and which was even more terrifying. The seers begged Our Lady to take the children of the day that they may be spared those horrors. But Our Lady said that they would be adults when the time came to pass. So insofar as timing is concerned you are correct. The children are adults. The time of passing is upon us but has by no means reached anywhere like its zenith in terms of self inflicted repercussions and suffering. We await one final indication that the prophesied Tribulation (as opposed to any other predicted troubles) are about to truly take off. That of course is the long awaited visit to Miscow by a pope. For what it is worth I believe this will be a last minute vain attempt to broker peace. After this, on the pope's return to the Vatican, hostilities will break out. There will be no confusion or doubt then as to what is happening. Sadly most people will still not connect the troubles with Garabandal simply because they have never heard if it. Pope Francis once wisely said that Mystery does not that seek publicity: it does not insist on its own way...... like love. (Cor 13) That does not mean that the messages of true mystery should be suppressed or put on the back burner. They should be available for all. I have always found it difficult to reconcile the teaching that Our One True Church is guided by The Holy Spirit but we are not told promptly what we need to know. They say it is not a question and answer box that gives instant replies like a parent sometimes gives to the incessant "but why" of a child. They make the excuse that this is how it has always been, that the Church works slowly, but that is no excuse and revolutions happen when it is discovered and realised that the status quo can be changed. We are running out of time for the changes that are needed now, changes in ourselves and changes in our Church.

 

Nope, not suggesting that at all. If you'll notice my 2nd sentence it says "need for salvation".