Divine Will revisited.

The evangelist John has spoken of these two resurrections in the book which is called the Apocalypse, but in such a way that some Christians do not understand the first of the two, and so construe the passage into ridiculous fancies. For the Apostle John says in the foresaid book, And I saw an angel come down from heaven. . . . Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Those who, on the strength of this passage, have suspected that the first resurrection is future and bodily, have been moved, among other things, specially by the number of a thousand years, as if it were a fit thing that the saints should thus enjoy a kind of Sabbath-rest during that period, a holy leisure after the labors of the six thousand years since man was created, and was on account of his great sin dismissed from the blessedness of paradise into the woes of this mortal life, so that thus, as it is written, One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day, 2 Peter 3:8 there should follow on the completion of six thousand years, as of six days, a kind of seventh-day Sabbath in the succeeding thousand years; and that it is for this purpose the saints rise, viz., to celebrate this Sabbath. And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints in that Sabbath shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God; for I myself, too, once held this opinion. But, as they assert that those who then rise again shall enjoy the leisure of immoderate carnal banquets, furnished with an amount of meat and drink such as not only to shock the feeling of the temperate, but even to surpass the measure of credulity itself, such assertions can be believed only by the carnal. They who do believe them are called by the spiritual Chiliasts, which we may literally reproduce by the name Millenarians. It were a tedious process to refute these opinions point by point: we prefer proceeding to show how that passage of Scripture should be understood.

 

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says, No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man — meaning by the strong man the devil, because he had power to take captive the human race; and meaning by his goods which he was to take, those who had been held by the devil in various sins and iniquities, but were to become believers in Himself. It was then for the binding of this strong one that the apostle saw in the Apocalypse an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a chain in his hand. And he laid hold, he says, on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,— that is, bridled and restrained his power so that he could not seduce and gain possession of those who were to be freed. Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium— the part, that is, which had yet to expire before the end of the world— a thousand years; or he used the thousand years as an equivalent for the whole duration of this world, employing the number of perfection to mark the fullness of time. For a thousand is the cube of ten. For ten times ten makes a hundred, that is; the square on a plane superficies. But to give this superficies height, and make it a cube, the hundred is again multiplied by ten, which gives a thousand. Besides, if a hundred is sometimes used for totality, as when the Lord said by way of promise to him that left all and followed Him He shall receive in this world an hundredfold; Matthew 19:29 of which the apostle gives, as it were, an explanation when he says, As having nothing, yet possessing all things, 2 Corinthians 6:10 — for even of old it had been said, The whole world is the wealth of a believer,— with how much greater reason is a thousand put for totality since it is the cube, while the other is only the square? And for the same reason we cannot better interpret the words of the psalm, He has been mindful of His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations, than by understanding it to mean to all generations.

 

And he cast him into the abyss,— i.e., cast the devil into the abyss. By the abyss is meant the countless multitude of the wicked whose hearts are unfathomably deep in malignity against the Church of God; not that the devil was not there before, but he is said to be cast in there, because, when prevented from harming believers, he takes more complete possession of the ungodly. For that man is more abundantly possessed by the devil who is not only alienated from God, but also gratuitously hates those who serve God. And shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years should be fulfilled. Shut him up,— i.e., prohibited him from going out, from doing what was forbidden. And the addition of set a seal upon him seems to me to mean that it was designed to keep it a secret who belonged to the devil's party and who did not. For in this world this is a secret, for we cannot tell whether even the man who seems to stand shall fall, or whether he who seems to lie shall rise again. But by the chain and prison-house of this interdict the devil is prohibited and restrained from seducing those nations which belong to Christ, but which he formerly seduced or held in subjection. For before the foundation of the world God chose to rescue these from the power of darkness, and to translate them into the kingdom of the Son of His love, as the apostle says. Colossians 1:13 For what Christian is not aware that he seduces nations even now, and draws them with himself to eternal punishment, but not those predestined to eternal life? And let no one be dismayed by the circumstance that the devil often seduces even those who have been regenerated in Christ, and begun to walk in God's way. For the Lord knows them that are His, 2 Timothy 2:19 and of these the devil seduces none to eternal damnation. For it is as God, from whom nothing is hid even of things future, that the Lord knows them; not as a man, who sees a man at the present time (if he can be said to see one whose heart he does not see), but does not see even himself so far as to be able to know what kind of person he is to be. The devil, then, is bound and shut up in the abyss that he may not seduce the nations from which the Church is gathered, and which he formerly seduced before the Church existed. For it is not said that he should not seduce any man, but that he should not seduce the nations— meaning, no doubt, those among which the Church exists— till the thousand years should be fulfilled,— i.e., either what remains of the sixth day which consists of a thousand years, or all the years which are to elapse till the end of the world.

 

The words, that he should not seduce the nations till the thousand years should be fulfilled, are not to be understood as indicating that afterwards he is to seduce only those nations from which the predestined Church is composed, and from seducing whom he is restrained by that chain and imprisonment; but they are used in conformity with that usage frequently employed in Scripture and exemplified in the psalm, So our eyes wait upon the Lord our God, until He have mercy upon us, — not as if the eyes of His servants would no longer wait upon the Lord their God when He had mercy upon them. Or the order of the words is unquestionably this, And he shut him up and set a seal upon him, till the thousand years should be fulfilled; and the interposed clause, that he should seduce the nations no more, is not to be understood in the connection in which it stands, but separately, and as if added afterwards, so that the whole sentence might be read, And He shut him up and set a seal upon him till the thousand years should be fulfilled, that he should seduce the nations no more,— i.e., he is shut up till the thousand years be fulfilled, on this account, that he may no more deceive the nations.

Chapter 8.— Of the Binding and Loosing of the Devil.
After that, says John, he must be loosed a little season. If the binding and shutting up of the devil means his being made unable to seduce the Church, must his loosing be the recovery of this ability? By no means. For the Church predestined and elected before the foundation of the world, the Church of which it is said, The Lord knows them that are His, shall never be seduced by him. And yet there shall be a Church in this world even when the devil shall be loosed, as there has been since the beginning, and shall be always, the places of the dying being filled by new believers. For a little after John says that the devil, being loosed, shall draw the nations whom he has seduced in the whole world to make war against the Church, and that the number of these enemies shall be as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil who seduced them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:9-10 This relates to the last judgment, but I have thought fit to mention it now, lest any one might suppose that in that short time during which the devil shall be loose there shall be no Church upon earth, whether because the devil finds no Church, or destroys it by manifold persecutions. The devil, then, is not bound during the whole time which this book embraces—that is, from the first coming of Christ to the end of the world, when He shall come the second time,— not bound in this sense, that during this interval, which goes by the name of a thousand years, he shall not seduce the Church, for not even when loosed shall he seduce it. For certainly if his being bound means that he is not able or not permitted to seduce the Church, what can the loosing of him mean but his being able or permitted to do so? But God forbid that such should be the case! But the binding of the devil is his being prevented from the exercise of his whole power to seduce men, either by violently forcing or fraudulently deceiving them into taking part with him. If he were during so long a period permitted to assail the weakness of men, very many persons, such as God would not wish to expose to such temptation, would have their faith overthrown, or would be prevented from believing; and that this might not happen, he is bound.

 

Well, one Doctor of the Church did not have a problem, not upholding the Augustinian model and that was St. Therese of Lixieux, who's favorite book was by Father Charles Arminjon (The End of the Present World) who spoke most favorably of the era of peace after the antichrist.

 

I think it's the way you framed it that is surprising, because it's really not what the text says. Plainly. Chronologically. It simply is a bastardization of the text, to be blunt.

Ironically, St. Augustine actually taught that the millennium could be understood precisely the way that Fr. Iannuzzi has systematically explained it. Why are you ignoring that interpretation, Emmett? You are embracing Augustine's fourth model, but you seem to have missed why. It was because of those who believe that they will “rise again [and] shall enjoy the leisure of immoderate carnal banquets, furnished with an amount of meat and drink such as not only to shock the feeling of the temperate, but even to surpass the measure of credulity itself.” And so Augustine—in response to this clear heresy—not the spiritual interpretation he also presented—opted for an allegory that, although not unacceptable, was also an opinion “so far as occurs to me", he said. I'm sorry, but intellectually, I'm not going to reject the solid research of Iannuzzi, formal magisterial statements, and clear teachings of the other Church Fathers, for one man's opinion. At least "so far as occurs to me."

Finally, prominent eschatological writer of his day, Fr. Charles Arminjon, demonstrates that what you hold as virtually "unanimous" was not; in fact, he states the classical teachings of the Church Fathers as being the "authoritative" view. In fact, he goes back precisely to the great doctors and theologians of the Church:

St. Thomas and St. John Chrysostom explain the words quem Dominus Jesus destruet illustratione adventus sui (“whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming”) in the sense that Christ will strike the Antichrist by dazzling him with a brightness that will be like an omen and sign of His Second Coming… The most authoritative view, and the one that appears to be most in harmony with Holy Scripture, is that, after the fall of the Antichrist, the Catholic Church will once again enter upon a period of prosperity and triumph. —The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life, Fr. Charles Arminjon (1824-1885), p. 56-57; Sophia Institute Press​

Emmett, dear brother, I am so grateful for this dialogue with you. However, I feel we are going in circles. Two questions that are coming to mind is this: Are you saying, therefore, that all the mystics of the past century (at least) who are prophesying this coming Era of Peace (including several indicating that it is preceded by an antichrist—which mirrors the biblical texts)... are you saying that they are essentially in heresy? I mean, many of these have ecclesiastical approval, and are even climbing up the ladder of canonization. I'm wondering how you can simply turn away from the coherence between Scripture, contemporary theology, and contemporary mystical revelations, which can be overlayed upon each with perfect coherence?

The Holy Spirit is consistent. I find the Augustinian model (one of the four models, that is) inconsistent with both Scripture, New and Old Testaments, and with the prophetic consensus of our times.

The second question is merely for my reference only, to understand where you're coming from: have you had a chance to study the full body of Iannuzzi's systematic theology on this? I think this is absolutely crucial for anyone serious about eschatology, which you are, not only because Fr. Iannuzzi's work is highly respected and sought after by the Vatican and many in the episcopate, but because he carefully develops the theology of the Era of Peace utilizing the various fields of theology.

 

+
PENTECOST AND THE SECOND COMING

I would like to thank our Brother, Joe, for posting the above reading of St. Paul because I think it has tremendous relevance for the stimulating discussion taking place on this thread (for which I am very thankful for to all participants). I think that Mark, Peter and Emmett, Steve have the issue of Christ's 2nd coming right but are just coming at it from a different line of site.

Did you ever have an argument with someone about an issue, only to find out later that you both actually agreed in principle on the issue - it was just the arguments that were different. I definitely have. I am definitely no St. Paul, and I am definitely not in the league of the above men of Catholic Men of Faith, but I would like to add something to this discussion, in the spirit of the above reading which Joe posted.

I have gathered that Mark and Peter support the idea of an interim coming (2nd coming) of Jesus, well before the end of the world and Jesus' final coming. I believe this view has merit. Steve and Emmett, to me anyway, are going with the position that there will be no more new coming of Jesus (except for the Sacraments of course), until the final coming of Jesus at the last judgement. I believe this view has merit. I will then go further and say that these views can be reconciled within the views of the magisterium as follows and they are in fact, close to the same.

I now put forward the statement that the 2nd coming of Jesus has already happened, is happening now, and will continue to take place (through the Holy Spirit), until He comes on the clouds to judge humanity on the last day. This 2nd coming began at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and is an ongoing event. The fullness of Christ is contained in the Holy Spirit (as well as the fullness of the Father). I don't think anyone here would argue that that was a one time event. Just like when we receive Holy Communion, we partake in the original Last Supper Mass, so when we are Baptized and Confirmed, we take part in the ongoing outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Mark and Peter are correct that there will be a future coming of this same outpouring, because it has never stopped since the 1st Pentecost. I will go further here and say that just as when we receive Holy Communion, The Body and Blood of Christ is always there - it does not mean that the gifts we receive each time at Holy Communion are the same. We receive what God wills that we need, for the state we are in to accomplish His will, at the time. Would anyone here object, due to the state of the world at this time, to a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit some time in the future? This is entirely within God's purview to do and it is part of an ongoing 2nd coming that began at the first Pentecost. Mark and Peter's view have merit supporting the valid teachers of our Faith who say that Jesus' 2nd coming in the future will (due to our sinful state), require a massive show of force from the Holy Spirit. Steve and Emmett are correct that no new type of Jesus' coming will take place until the last judgement.

In Peter's posted comment,
quote] (Fr Gobbi cnt'd)

450. The Understanding of the Whole and Entire Truth

Berlin (Germany), May 19, 1991

Feast of Pentecost

"Today you are here to observe the liturgical solemnity of Pentecost, in a continual cenacle of brotherhood and of prayer, carried out with me and by means of me. Thus there is renewed the very same reality which took place in the Cenacle of Jerusalem when, under the form of tongues of fire, the Holy Spirit came down upon the apostles, gathered together in prayer with your heavenly Mother. That was the first Pentecost. That was the beginning of the earthly journey of the Church in the history of humanity.
(She goes on to say a paragraph later),
You have now entered into the times of the Second Pentecost. For this reason, it is necessary that these cenacles be multiplied in every part of the world. I ask that all the Church be gathered together in the spiritual cenacle of my Immaculate Heart. Then the Holy Spirit will bring you to the understanding of the whole and entire truth.
(I would urge all to read this above post of Peter's in its entirety 5-19-16 at 4:54 p.m.)
Even if these words do not come from the Blessed Virgin Mary - Can anyone doubt that it is God's purview to do just what is described above. There is no (to my knowledge) reason that He can't, and there are many approved apparitions (Fatima, Akita), that acknowledge this future possible outpouring which began at Pentecost.

Who could doubt that a future outpouring of the Holy Spirit wouldn't be connected to the First Pentecost. The Spirit remains unchanged (just as the Eucharist does), but the gifts we receive are dependent on what God wills to give us, in this place and time, to accomplish His will. That is where, I think, a lot of the misunderstandings come in. That good old created entity called "time" that we humans have to deal with, but our God does not. He, who is the only Uncreated, sees past, and is present even now, at what comes next after this Heaven and Earth pass away.

When the Holy Spirit descended at the first Pentecost, Mary was there. In the week leading up to Pentecost (when Jesus gave them orders not to leave Jerusalem until His Spirit came upon them), we can well imagine our Blessed Mother calming the boys (Apostles), down, and advising them to be at peace amid all of the persecution around them. They trusted Her and they remembered how she consoled them after Jesus was crucified and was the only one to tell them that He would be coming back on the third day. Let us, dear Brothers and Sisters, pray and listen to our Blessed Mother as she guides us, even to this day, with the words we can almost feel - Be at Peace in My Jesus, He is near.

I again wish to thank all of the contributors to this thread, and especially Mark, Emmett, Peter and Steve. You have all spent valuable time to give us the gift of your intellects. Iron sharpens Iron and the holy sparks that fly hear are many. I, like Mac, have wanted to read with popcorn in hand, all of these well though out positions. I do believe that you guys are much closer to each other than perhaps you believe. I know I have not touched on the "Era of Peace", but if we can prayerfully come to some consensus on this intermediate coming of Jesus, maybe the Era of Peace will fall into place. All of you will remain in my prayers and I thank God that we are all on the same team. Come Lord Jesus Come - Ave Maria
Our Lady of Victory View attachment 4953 Pray for Us

 

[All emphases P.B. In subsequent posts I will proceed to try to show how an essentially identical eschatology to that of Fr Gobbi emerges from the messages connected with the officially-approved 1994-1998 apparitions in Itapiranga, Brazil.][/quote]

Regarding Itapiranga, a major development has just been announced this week, as you will see on the 'Approved apparitions in the Amazon thread'.

 

Thank you Ed for what I think is a very interesting comment. Without wishing to minimize the differences in theological positions that have emerged on this threads, there is more commonality than it might appear at first. If we had been able to cool the temperature and eliminate the elements of highly personal criticism (and indeed anathematization) that appeared, we might have been able to demonstrate this. Above all, we need to remember that a large portion of the Body of Christ when the denominational spectrum of the totality of the baptized is taken into account, isn't expecting the Lord's return in any way, shape or form.

In terms of commonality, I am thinking particularly of Stephen Walford's take on Fr Gobbi, which as far as I can recall was to accept the messages themselves as valid but to claim that Fr Gobbi (and by extension the MMP) misunderstood them. From what I understood when this conversation first took place a couple of years back, Stephen is also waiting for eschatological peace - in line with his (IMHO justified) support for Fr Gobbi -, but unlike Mark and myself he locates it the other side of the Last Judgment. How much this difference actually matters in reality is a question of opinion. However, in accepting Fr Gobbi, Stephen's position is arguably closer to ours than the 'minor tribulation' scenario of Desmond Birch according to which the coming of the Antichrist is still a fair way off. Believing that is not without implications for the way that we read the present moment, which not merely a theoretical issue. Because of the relegation of the Antichrist to a more or less distant future, choosing the 'minor tribulation' line of interpretation means that you really do have to bin not only Fr Gobbi but the whole 'prophetic consensus'.

What I see re-reading the alleged messages in the 'Blue Book' is that they really do talk about the Second Coming in the straightforward sense mentioned in the Gospels and the words of the angels at Christ's Ascension. The multiple references to the 'clouds of heaven' maj=ke this very plain (the following are all extracts from longer messages). It is certainly true that what is being predicted here has to do with the internal sanctification of the Church as the vessel for Christ's Reign, but there is no getting away from the visible aspect of the Second Coming as an event in these locutions.

My own sense is that this would all be far less complicated than we are making it, were it not for the fact that the whole discussion about eschatology is labouring under the weight of centuries of theological speculation, which includes Augustine. Fr Gobbi and the Bible are not incompatible, nor Fr Gobbi and the Early Church Fathers. Nor can the 'Blue Book' be considered heretical, having been granted Imprimaturs. Where the incompatibility lies is between the 'Blue Book' (and a whole slew of other modern mystical writings) and Augustine's amillennialism, and here the reader has to make a choice. You can't have both without logical contradiction.

 

(cnt'd)
Fr Stefano Gobbi, 'To the Priests, Our Lady's Beloved Sons'
_____________________________________

Message 318
'Thus too it must be for His second coming, when He will return in the splendour of His divinity and will come upon the clouds of heaven to establish His Reign in glory.'

Message 423:
'Keep watch with me in expectation, and be firm in the hope that Jesus will return on the clouds of heaven, in the splendor of his glorified body, as He predicted before the tribunal of Caiaphas, wanting to give a sure sign of his divinity, for these times when doubts are being spread about, concerning his divine nature and the fulfillment of his promises.'

Message 424:
'A little while yet and the door of this immense sepulchre, in which lies all humanity, will be opened. Jesus Christ, surrounded by the choir of Angels-on the clouds of heaven prostrate at his feet to form a royal throne-in the splendor of his divinity, will return to bring humanity to a new life, souls to grace and love, the Church to its highest summit of sanctity; and He will thus restore in the world his reign of glory."

Message 438:
'I was chosen by the Most Holy Trinity to become the Mother of the Second Advent, and thus my motherly task is that of preparing the Church and all humanity to receive Jesus, who is returning to you in glory. This second coming of his will take place in the light of his divinity, because Jesus will return to you on the clouds of heaven, in the splendor of his royalty and will make subject to Himself the peoples and the nations of the earth and all his enemies will be crushed under the throne of his universal dominion.
Thus my maternal action, in these last times, is being exercised in a manner which is open and increasingly stronger, and my light is becoming bright in every part of the earth. For this reason, I am manifesting myself today everywhere by means of my numerous apparitions and of my extraordinary manifestations.
My reign of love, which I am establishing in hearts and souls, is the way which prepares the glorious reign of Christ. The triumph of my Immaculate Heart will coincide with the second coming of Jesus in glory, to make all things new.'

Message 446:
"In the long Holy Saturday of these last times of yours, you must above all keep watch with me in expectation. That which made lighter for me the great sorrow of this day, was the certitude that Jesus was to be gloriously risen. The Saturday of the sepulchre was to be succeeded by the first day of the resurrection.
Even though you are still living the pain, the fatigue, the suffering and the death of this long Holy Saturday, live with me in expectation. Jesus will return on the clouds of heaven, to restore his reign of glory and to make all things new. Beloved children, live with me today, in the expectation of this, his return."

Message 470:
"Jesus will return on the royal throne of his glory, to bring to fulfillment that word of his, which was the cause of his condemnation; the clouds of heaven will prostrate themselves as a footstool at his feet, and He will come to restore his reign of grace, of holiness, of love, of justice, and of peace, bringing thus to perfect fulfillment the plan of his redemption.
Live in the expectation of his glorious return and of your imminent liberation."

Message 480:
'Lift up therefore your eyes to heaven, my beloved ones and children consecrated to me, because, on the bright clouds, my Son Jesus will come to you, in the splendor of his glory, to establish in your midst his reign of love, of holiness, of justice and of peace."

Message 482:
'Jesus Christ is King, because it pertains to his divine mission to bring the created universe back to the perfect glorification of the Father, purifying it with the burning fire of the Holy Spirit, in such a way that it may become completely freed of every spirit of evil, of every shadow of sin, and thus be able to open itself to the enchantment of a new earthly paradise.
Then will the Father be glorified and his name be held holy by all creation.
In this creation, renewed by a perfect communion of life with the Father, Jesus Christ will restore his reign of glory, so that the work of his divine redemption may attain its perfect fulfillment.
The Holy Spirit will open hearts and minds, in such a way that all will be able to carry out the will of the Father and the Son, so that, as in heaven so also on earth, the divine will may be perfectly accomplished.
To attain to these new heavens and this new earth, it is necessary to pass through the painful and bloody trial of the purification, of the great tribulation and of the chastisement. [...]
'Look! Jesus Christ is coming amid the clouds, and everyone will see Him, even those who killed Him; and all the races of the earth will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.

Message 510:
"prepare yourselves, one and all, to receive my Son Jesus, who is even now about to return among you, on the clouds of heaven, in the splendor of his divine glory."

Message 517:
"Humanity, corrupted by sin, slave to Satan, wounded by evil, oppressed under the yoke of a great slavery, still lies in its sepulchre. The hour is drawing close when Jesus, who has risen and ascended to the right hand of the Father, will return to you on the clouds of heaven, in the splendor of his divine glory, thus bringing to perfect fulfillment the work of his Redemption."

Message 528:
"To the Archangel Gabriel is entrusted the great mission of announcing the return of Jesus In glory, to restore his reign in the world.
As the heavenly announcement of the first coming of my Son into the world came through him, so once again will he be the bright messenger of the Second Coming of Jesus in glory. This Second Coming will take place in the power and the light, with Jesus who will appear upon the clouds of heaven, in the splendor of his divinity, to subject all things to Himself. And thus the divine power of my Son Jesus will be made manifest to the entire created universe."

Message 576:
"Look up to heaven. From heaven, you will see my Son Jesus returning on the clouds, in the splendor of his divine glory. Then finally the triumph of my Immaculate Heart in the world will be accomplished."

Message 603:
"Enter with me into the fullness of time, which will take place when Jesus returns in the splendor of his divine glory. This, his first coming, will reach its full significance only at his second coming. This holy night is ordained to the radiant day that win have no dusk.
My divine Child, whom you now contemplate in the manger, and who cries and shivers from the cold, will one day return in the power of his divine glory and will bring time and history to its fullness. Time and history will reach their completion; with his divine and glorious presence. He will make all things new.
You are living out the mystery of this second Advent, which is preparing you to receive Jesus, when He returns to you on the clouds of heaven.
Only then will the second Advent through which you are living reach its fulfillment.
Then time will attain its fullness.
Then will the Immaculate Heart of your heavenly Mother attain her triumph, in the definitive and glorious triumph of her Son Jesus."

 

Thank God I am not bound to believe any approved private revelation.

In fact the more messages like those above are promoted ,the more I see clearly we live in the time of Diabolical Disorientation.

 

One oul

One could argue that we are bound by scripture (God's word) to not "despise prophecy", but test it, lest you be working against the Spirit of God, so long as what is given in prophecy is not contrary to scripture or church teaching. I realize for to many it is easier to only accept the 'black and white' of the faith, but that seems to me to be quenching the spirit of God who has much more to reveal to his "little children" who have ears to hear.

 

The Church teaches Divine Revelation (God revealing) ended with the death of St. John. God told us everything we need for salvation in a Word.

 

We are speaking here of what is needed for salvation history. We are talking about continuing to listen to the voice of God and allowing him to unravel His mysteries in real time. So why do we need prophet's, which we were warned to not despise? Why is Fatima and a multitude of other approved apparitions given? As you should know, development of our understanding of church teachings is not stagnant, but constantly being unraveled in time. Do not quench the Holy Spirit is also church teach teaching within the deposit of faith.

 

Mark, thanks for taking the time for this discussion. I will respond to each of the points you have raised in good time. I'm sure you understand that there are time constraints involved, and I have other duties to attend to, as of course you do yourself. You also in turn need to address the most important points I have raised so far, as they are critical. You haven't provided an answer to these issues yet, and Fr. Iannuzzi's spiritual millennialist theory lives or dies on how you can explain them. How is the idea of a future "first resurrection" of the righteous at the beginning of an earthly millennium compatible with the dogma of the particular judgment (that the righteous will remain uninterrupted in the beatific vision until the last judgment) and the doctrine of the general resurrection of the dead, which states that the souls of the righteous will only be reunited to their physical bodies immediately before the Last Judgment at the end of time?

The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust," will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." CCC 1038

 

Dear Ed,

Warm greetings! Thank you for taking the time to elucidate your thoughts on this, which are actually extremely close to what I summarized in an open letter to Pope Francis. See Dear Holy Father... He is Coming!

The analogy I used is of dawn (and this appears in many prophetic revelations, including the Book of Revelation itself). And so let me summarize it here briefly. With the Ascension of Christ, the "Sun" of God was taken from our sight. But immediately, as you stated, and as the Catechism teaches, the end times have begun (cf. CCC 686). That is to say, the Sun now races toward it's final rising, when Jesus will appear at the end of time. The Apostolic teaching, the deposit of faith, is the which prepares this coming:

...their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. (Ps 19:4-5)​

But as you rightly point out, Jesus has been coming to us now, starting with his appearance to Paul. He comes in the Eucharist. He is appearing to thousands of Muslims as we speak. But the Scriptures also speak of two significant moments of Jesus' coming, one before and one after the "thousand years."

Thus, the analogy you point out, and that of dawn, becomes striking by the fact that, at the end of Revelation, Jesus reveals Himself as "the bright morning star" (22:16). That is to say that the "middle coming" described in Rev. 19 before the Era of Peace is precisely like that: a morning star that heralds the eventual rise of the Sun of Justice after the Era of Peace, when the Final Judgment brings about the consummation of time.

So Jesus continues to come to increase His reign, and soon, in a singular, powerful, era-changing way. St. Bernard describes this as a “middle coming” of Christ.

In his first coming Our Lord came in our flesh and in our weakness; in this middle coming he comes in spirit and power; in the final coming he will be seen in glory and majesty… —St. Bernard, Liturgy of the Hours, Vol I, p. 169​

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI affirmed that this “middle coming” is in keeping with Catholic theology.

Whereas people had previously spoken only of a twofold coming of Christ—once in Bethlehem and again at the end of time—Saint Bernard of Clairvaux spoke of an adventus medius, an intermediate coming, thanks to which he periodically renews His intervention in history. I believe that Bernard’s distinction strikes just the right note… —POPE BENEDICT XVI, Light of the World, p.182-183, A Conversation With Peter Seewald
​

Again, Jesus comes to us in many ways: in the Eucharist, in the Word, where “two or three are gathered,” in the “least of the brothers,” in the person of the sacramental priest… and in these last times, He is being given to us once again, through the Mother, as a “Flame of Love” emerging from her Immaculate Heart. As Our Lady revealed to Elizabeth Kindelmann in her approved messages:

…my Flame of Love… is Jesus Christ himself. —The Flame of Love, p. 38, from Elizabeth Kindelmann’s diary; 1962; Imprimatur Archbishop Charles Chaput

The Holy Spirit speaking through the Fathers of the Church, also calls our Lady the Eastern Gate, through which the High Priest, Jesus Christ, enters and goes out into the world. Through this gate he entered the world the first time and through this same gate he will come the second time.—St. Louis de Montfort, Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, n. 262
​

This “hidden” coming of Jesus in Spirit is the equivalent to the coming of the Kingdom of God. This is what is meant by the “triumph of the Immaculate Heart” that Our Lady promised at Fatima. Indeed, Pope Benedict prayed four years ago that God would “hasten the fulfillment of the prophecy of the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.” He qualified this statement in an interview with Peter Seewald:

I said the “triumph” will draw closer. This is equivalent in meaning to our praying for the coming of God’s Kingdom… the triumph of God, the triumph of Mary, are quiet, they are real nonetheless. —POPE BENEDICT XVI, Light of the World, p. 166, A Conversation With Peter Seewald
​

I think this is striking, because at the end of time, there will be nothing quiet about the end of the world. But this "middle coming" of the "kingdom", where Jesus reigns in his saints, is consistent with Sacred Tradition:

It may even be… that the Kingdom of God means Christ himself, whom we daily desire to come, and whose coming we wish to be manifested quickly to us… —Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 2816

​

See also The Rising Morning Star.

 

Hello!

If you are suggesting that God no longer speaks to the Church, which is what prophecy is, then your viewpoint is not a biblical nor Catholic one. What "private revelation" cannot do is correct the Public Revelation of the Church. But it can certainly illuminate it:

It is not [so-called “private” revelations’] role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history… —Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 67​

May I suggest reading Prophecy Properly Understood.

 

I have not had time nor energy to study the fullness of discussion on this thread but what I have read I find most impressive. I know of one person in America who has been devouring it and finding it "better than chocolate or a good red wine" and has put it all into a booklet that is now 68 pages long (12 point print). In the end and at risk of being a bore I am drawn back to the words of Our Lady at Akita. She tells us that the only way we can be saved from present times is through recourse to her and in the Rosary. As long as interest in other ways does not detract from the way the Mary has given and commanded - "Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary", visit the Blessed Sacrament frequently", "practice penance" ," Think on the Passion of Jesus", etc then all is good and I am all for intelligent and civil exchange. There is a popular psychology theme that we are human beings rather than human 'doings' but to get into heaven it is what we do that matters. "If you love me keep my word". I think of the deeds we are called to perform in order to gain entry into heaven, to be done even to the least of Christ's own. I think of the saying, "If you don't feed a starving man you starve him." I think of my brother once again and the fruits of his simple life as witnessed by 1500 hundred attendees at his funeral- people he had helped through their addictions and brought to faith in God. I think of his belief that we cannot think ourselves into right action but have to 'act ourselves' into right thinking and that every decision must be followed by action to give it meaning and authentication. Our Lady told Conchita that our hands must be full when we stand before God. We must not present empty handed. I wish I had the intellect to contribute to this thread at the level it deserves but all I can offer are a few thoughts, my experience, my intuition and my good wishes. For all things there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven. And from this particular season of calamity and catastrophe and controversy and contradiction and confusion, Mary alone is able to save us. So She tells us at Fatima, Garabandal, and Akita. Our terrible responsibility is to discern and decide whether or not She has spoken thus in these places: "I alone am able to still save you...."As Crewdog says, "God bless all here."

 

+
Dear Emmett,

If you have a moment, I would like you to look at my below comments which discuss some of the questions you asked Mark to answer in the above post.
I see no conflict with a first resurrection and the particular judgement dogma that the faithful will remain in the beatific vision, uninterrupted, until the last judgement (and even then, I believe). The first resurrection for most of the faithful will occur after death and if they have been judged worthy to enter Heaven. At that point they enjoy the beatific vision and can be in multiple places at the same time wherever the Divine Will wishes them to be. Just like the Angels while here on Earth, are also always before God's throne, so to would be those judged righteous and in Heaven of humanity (if God willed for them a job on Earth). They would be Spirit, this is true, but again, like the Angels are Spirit, the ability to take on the image and likeness that their soul was created in, would not seem to be a problem if they had a mission on Earth. Just like known cases of Bi-location, they will be able to be seen, even though they are not there in the body (St. Padre Pio).

To make the case for a bodily ressurection before the final judgement would indeed be wrong - but here is the question. Why do we say that Satan has already been defeated by the Passion, Death, Ressurection and Ascention into Heaven of Jesus? We do not say it will be won at the end of time, we say it has (past tense) been already won. We know that the battle is won because our God is outside of time and Jesus has already drawn all of the righteous who have died with Him, up to His (and our), Heavnly Father. God (the Blessed Trinity) is eternally present everywhere. God is with Adam in the Garden and He is beyond the new Heavens and Earth that will come. God is unchanging. The faithful who are with Him in this place (the new Heaven and Earth) are (through and in Christ) already are united - Body and Soul. I pray that there is an Emmett O'Regan there as well as myself and all of our dear Brothers and Sister in Christ. This kind of thinking is sort of like the "spooky action at a distance" that photons exhibit in physics. It kind of seems to mean that the final resurrection of the body was completed before our first death and particular judgement even happens (of course that is not the case in time) even though we ourselves must live out our lives inside of the restrains of time just like Jesus did. This does not diminish our free will because we are still responsible for the choices that will cause us to gain salvation through Christ or eternal death.

I in no way mean to imply that we will not all (humanity) have to undergo the final judgement. At the end of time, the Scriptures tell us that we all will. What I am saying is that Christ has already won the battle and He will not allow even one of His faithful ones to be lost. How does He know? It really is much easier than He knows everything (which of course He does), He is with us even know beyond this existence.

How can this relate to a possible first resurrection with our body, it is highly unlikely (more likely to be the spiritual resurrection discussed above), but I would not count it out completely. To do so, would I think claim to know the mind and ways of God.

I wish you Christ's Peace Emmett,
Ed

 

Hi Emmett, I have answered this, at least in part. In fact, I too have raised several points which you have not responded to. Perhaps it will be helpful to simply summarize what has been said thus far between us:

ASSERTION: The idea of even a "spiritual" reign applied to the "thousand years" is still "mitigated" or "modified" millenarianism.

RESPONSE: The Church has rejected this assertion by way of two magisterial statements, and affirmed in approved private revelation that this is not contrary to the faith. Here I quote again the magisterial statements:

1. Padre Martino Penasa spoke to Msgr. S. Garofalo (Consultant to the Congregation for the Cause of Saints) on the scriptural foundation of an historic and universal era of peace, as opposed to millenarianism. Msgr. suggested that the matter be posed directly to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Fr. Martino thus posed the question: “È imminente una nuova era di vita cristiana?” (“Is a new era of Christian life imminent?”). The Prefect at that time, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger replied, “La questione è ancora aperta alla libera discussione, giacchè la Santa Sede non si è ancora pronunciata in modo definitivo”:

The question is still open to free discussion, as the Holy See has not made any definitive pronouncement in this regard. —Il Segno del Soprannauturale, Udine, Italia, n. 30, p. 10, Ott. 1990; Fr. Martino Penasa presented this question of a “millenary reign” to Cardinal Ratzinger

2. …a hope in some mighty triumph of Christ here on earth before the final consummation of all things. Such an occurrence is not excluded, is not impossible, it is not all certain that there will not be a prolonged period of triumphant Christianity before the end... If before that final end there is to be a period, more or less prolonged, of triumphant sanctity, such a result will be brought about not by the apparition of the person of Christ in Majesty but by the operation of those powers of sanctification which are now at work, the Holy Ghost and the Sacraments of the Church. —The Teachings of the Catholic Church, Vol. II, arranged by Canon George D. Smith, p. 1140

​

ASSERTION: Any kind of interpretation, other than allegorical applied to Rev 20:1-4, is incorrect, since the consensus of scholarship embraces St. Augustine's fourth interpretation of the text, that the "thousand years" applies to the period of the world from Christ's ascension to the end of time, and thus, the Antichrist only appears at the very end.

RESPONSE: St. Augustine's fourth model, which he admitted was only his opinion, is not dogma—the above magisterial statements confirm this. Also, such an assertion ignores that St. Augustine also taught that a millennial period or "sabbath rest" would be acceptable, only if it were spiritual in nature—precisely what The Teachings of the Catholic Church asserted.

...this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints, in that Sabbath, shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God… —St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.; Church Doctor), De Civitate Dei, Bk. XX, Ch. 7, Catholic University of America Press​

ASSERTION: We cannot depend upon the teaching of the early Church Fathers in this matter because they relied upon the testimony of Papias, who was a heretic.

RESPONSE: This judgment is based on Church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260-c. 341 A.D.) who "accused Papias of transmitting the heretical doctrine of Chiliasm to Irenaeus and other early churchmen." (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. X, p. 979). However, Eusebius was himself a poor theologian.

Eusebius himself became a victim of doctrinal errors and was, in fact, declared by Holy Mother Church a “schismatic”… he held arianistic views… he rejected the consubstantiality of the Father with the Son… he regarded the Holy Spirit as a creature (!); and… he condemned the veneration of images of Christ “so that we may not carry about our God in an image, like the pagans”. —Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi, The Triumph of God’s Kingdom in the Millennium and End Times: A Proper Belief from the Truth in Scripture and Church Teachings, St. John the Evangelist Press, 1999, p. 19​

Eusebius, though casting doubt on what he wrote, said:

Papias himself, in the introduction to his books, makes it manifest that he was not himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles; but he tells us that he received the truths of our religion from those who were acquainted with them… —Church History, Book III, Ch. 39, n. 2​

This is confirmed not only by St. Irenaeus, but by the Vatican itself:

And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; for there were five books compiled by him. —St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 33, n. 4

Papias by name, of Herapolis, a disciple dear to John… copied the Gospel faithfully under John’s dictation. —Codex Vaticanus Alexandrinus, Nr. 14 Bibl. Lat. Opp. I., Romae, 1747, p.344​

Thus, the speculation of Eusebius needs to be held up to more careful scrutiny that involves a systematic development of early Church teaching.

Some theologians inadvertently adopted Eusebius’ speculative approach… Subsequently, these ideologues associated everything and anything that borders on a millennium with Chiliasm, resulting in an unhealed breach in the field of eschatololgy that would remain for a time, like an ubiquitous stricture, attached to the salient word millennium. —Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi, The Triumph of God’s Kingdom in the Millennium and End Times: A Proper Belief from the Truth in Scripture and Church Teachings, St. John the Evangelist Press, 1999, p. 20​

Continued in next post...