I am only a layman with some limited understanding. So bear with me!! You say: Catholic moral theology has always taught that a person could commit what is objectively a mortal sin without being subjectively culpable of it, due to not having either full knowledge or full consent or both. That means in effect? The person does not have that sin on their conscience and therefore could be still in a state of grace?
Fr Hardon distinguishes between soul and spirit in terms of orientation. In homosexuality it seems it is the compulsion and obsession with same sex attraction that is indulged, takes over the soul and turns it away from God. This of course could be applied to any sinful habit. My brother used to say of alcoholics : the man takes a drink, the drink takes a drink, the drink takes the man. Another saying he had was "whiskey gave me wings to fly, then it took away the sky." Just so the ability to choose can be so weakened it hardly seems available. It becomes so lost in the fog of compulsion that change seems impossible and even unnecessary. This is the mercy of Francis: an offer of hope that there is still time to change and a clear pathway to this end. This offer is made to all sinners but especially to the d&r and those of homosexual orientation, those most in need of God's mercy. Edit: I remember one Jesuit priest suggesting that homosexual behaviour came from greed: a lust for experience, that for them the offer of normal sex was just not enough. For others it found its origin in a lack of love from the same sex parent. Later in life, usually at a vulnerable time such as puberty, a person whose real motive was sexual, came into their lives offering to compensate for that lack of love. The friendship was sexualised/perverted and so the journey began on the road to perdition. In Garabandal of course The Blessed Mother said that many priests bishops and cardinals were on the road to perdition and taking many souls with them. I have always been sure this related at least in part to sins of homosexuality that finds its worst expression in child abuse perpetrated by consecrated men. I also believe that is why there was such an initially strong reaction against Garabandal: the Church as I have said before, sadly and shamefully had been caught literally with its pants down. It could not face its guilt at that time in the early 60s. It panicked. This could not have related simply to the abuses of Vatican II that would eventuate because later in Garabandal Our Lady seems to have affirmed that as great council. The Bishop of Santander died with blackened hands. There was no medical reason for this. Edit when Conchita asked the Blessed Mother about the outcome of the Council, the response was unequivocal. Conchita was heard to say: "The Council, is it the greatest of all?... Will it be a success?... How good!... That way they will know you better, and you will be very happy... ." [Garcia de Pesquera, O.F.M., Cap., Eusebio (trans. by Barry Miller), She Went in Haste to the Mountain, Lindenhurst, N.Y: The Workers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel de Garabandal (2000 ed.), p. 436.]
As I understand it, yes. Like yourself, I'm a layman, not a theologian. However, I am fairly certain that for one to commit a mortal sin, the following three elements are absolutely necessary: 1). Grave matter. The sin has to be sufficiently serious. 2). Full knowledge. One must be reasonably sure of what one is doing, that the act, thought or failure to act is gravely sinful. Of course there is widespread diversity of opinion as to what degree of knowledge consists of full knowledge, but this is nothing new. 3). Full consent. If one misses Mass because one's car won't start, there is no sin. If any one of these three elements is missing, there is no culpable mortal sin. Even if a person commits murder, this would be the case. Theoretically, it could be argued that mortal sin is impossible due to not fulfilling all the conditions, but people know when they've really gravely sinned. Their conscience won't let them away with it.
St Paul is very careful about the burden of responsibility that knowledge of the law imparts. The vast majority of Catholics are totally unaware of such things as actual or objective sin. To the vast majority of people it means nothing. This is why we are warned of the danger of setting ourselves up as teachers. The penalty for sin in a well informed teacher will be much worse.
These repentant individuals are beginning to see themselves and their illicit actions in the same light as all such men did throughout all of history until the imposition of a false narrative of the existence of an intrinsic homosexual nature in modern times. So yes, Joe, you are absolutely right, it is radical...and radically good. I wasn't trying to disagree with you but make the point that their new, repentant perception of themselves would not have been regarded as radical in past times, but as a correct view of their condition.
When I was a child of about six or seven years of age I must have got in with a bunch of wayward kids cause I remember them boasting about stealing candy without being seeing by the shop owner. There was never a hint of guilt or remorse in them. Now I used to feel guilty even about 'stealing' a treat from the pantry. Having seen the movie Pinocchio I knew what a conscience was and was frequently reminded by Mum how much I upset my good angel when I was naughty. I must have decided then that the problem was in having a conscience. I wanted to be naughty and not feel bad about it. So I asked God to take away my conscience. Of course He never did. How that request must have made my heavenly Father laugh. I see Him with that stern face that parents try to put on when they can barely suppress a smile. Of course He left me with my conscience and just for good measure may have honed a finer edge to it. So if those poor souls are anything like me you are quite right De Gaulle "Their consciences wont let them away with it."
Sometimes I need things explained more clearly, other times I am just fine. That's probably how some of the Cardinals, Bishops and priests (and their friends here) feel about AL. I pinched the cartoon from Charlie's website. (no doubt Mac will make a comment about how the characters here look like me - I am on a strict diet. Trying to get back to my avatar image.)
Ha, brilliant! We could have done with that diagram last year during our homosexual 'marriage' referendum. Natural Law for beginners!
The vast majority of Catholics have lost the sense of sin period. Empty confessionals are proof that the average Joe thinks he's all right with God (sorry about the pun!). I suspect the lack of daily prayer in many lives has led to this sad state of affairs. It is through prayer and reflection we come to know God and His ways. Theologians who don't pray are like tractors without fuel. They cannot plough the furrow and lead people astray. With regard to being informed about the faith at least that shows a sign of interest! But there is a great difference between knowing the faith and living the faith in much the same way there is a great difference in talking about God as opposed to talking to God. In this regard if I was asked by someone what has contributed most to my spiritual development I would have to say praying the daily Rosary. I cannot recommend it enough because in it one finds prayer, contemplation, knowledge and understanding of the mysteries of God in harmony with the rhythms of daily life in union with Jesus and Mary. The words of the Hail Mary are so beautiful and at the centre of every Hail Mary is the glorious name of Jesus by whom we are saved.
Now we are finally getting somewhere ...you have said all the right words. You also understand the faith...what a great gift. And even though our numbers are few...we are spiritually strong. But what about the rest of the world. How do you evangelize to break through. It just takes a spark. Once the fire is lit...it gradually leads to where you are at spiritually. Now just because you have reached this state...you want Our Church to act in a certain manner. But that is where you are misguided. The Church is not only looking after you but also trying to light the spark in the world. That doesn't mean it has to change its tenents of faith. But it does have to speak universally. The problem i see is...since you were given the Grace of Faith, you expect everyone to be at your level. Spiritually, that is impossible. Once you reach a certain level of spirituality...humility takes over. Thats is sainthood. It takes the humility to say I don't know. The humility to say... I believe in your church and that the Holy Spirit is guiding it. The humility to say even-though i am spiritually strong...my little sins are greater then any of the worst sins of mankind. Once you take that step...then lots of the arguments begin to fade. On your spiritual journey, you are currently decorated in silver and gold. You walk with fine cloth and adorned with grand jewels. But there is a certain point in ones journey where you come to a bridge...at this bridge you have to shed that silver and gold to pass. Sad to say some never leave that spot. So one is left at that spot understanding the silver and gold but never seeing whats at the other side of the bridge. Spirituality is a very unique experience...all of us are walking in the different directions but the road gradually starts coming together. There is a backlog at the foot of that bridge. May Gods Will be Done
Our local Cathedral no longer offers Saturday confession. The last time I went there I was the only one.
I believe Pope St John Paul 2 said this a long time ago. About the loss of a sense of sin. https://zenit.org/articles/loss-of-sense-of-sin-needs-urgent-attention-says-pope/ Loss of Sense of Sin Needs Urgent Attention, Says Pope Appeals to U.S. Bishops to Promote Sacrament of Penance May 14, 2004ZENIT StaffVatican Dicasteries/Diplomacy VATICAN CITY, MAY 14, 2004 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II lamented the loss of the sense of sin in the world as he urged a group of U.S. bishops to promote the sacrament of penance. Addressing the bishops of California, Nevada and Hawaii, who are on their five-yearly visit to Rome, the Pope said that the “courage to face the crisis of the loss of the sense of sin, to which I alerted the whole Church early in my pontificate, must be addressed today with particular urgency.” In his 1984 apostolic exhortation “Reconciliatio et Paenitentia,” the Holy Father warned that “the loss of the sense of sin is a form or fruit of the negation of God: not only of the atheist, but also of the secularist.” This phenomenon implies a paradox. “While the effects of sin abound — greed, dishonesty and corruption, broken relationships and exploitation of persons, pornography and violence — the recognition of individual sinfulness has waned,” he said. “In its place a disturbing culture of blame and litigiousness has arisen which speaks more of revenge than justice and fails to acknowledge that in every man and woman there is a wound which, in the light of faith, we call original sin,” John Paul II lamented. “Sin is an integral part of the truth about the human person. To recognize oneself as a sinner is the first and essential step in returning to the healing love of God,” he said. “Given this reality, the bishop’s duty to indicate the sad and destructive presence of sin, both in individuals and in communities, is in fact a service of hope,” the Pope said. “Far from being something negative, it strengthens believers to abandon evil and embrace the perfection of love and the fullness of Christian life,” he added. “Let us boldly announce that indeed we are not the sum total of our weaknesses and failures! We are the sum of the Father’s love for us, and capable of becoming the image of his Son!” he told the U.S. bishops. “The lasting peace and harmony so longed for by individuals, families and society can only be won through that conversion which is a fruit of mercy and constituent of genuine reconciliation,” the Holy Father said. “As bishops you have the difficult yet satisfying duty of promoting the true Christian understanding of reconciliation." “Indeed mercy constitutes the fundamental content of the messianic message of Christ and the constitutive power of his mission and thus can never be set aside in the name of pragmatism,” he continued. “As pastors of your flock it is with this merciful love — never a mere sense of favor — that you too must reach down to every prodigal son, to every human misery, and above all to every form of moral misery, to sin,” John Paul II said. The Holy Father concluded by encouraging the bishops to promote the sacrament of penance, “the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church.” “Though it cannot be denied that the profound power of this sacrament is often considered today with indifference, it is also the case that young people in particular readily give testimony to the graces and transforming benefits it bestows,” he said. “I again appeal directly to you and to your priests: Arm yourselves with more confidence, creativity and perseverance in presenting it and leading people to appreciate it,” he exhorted. “Time spent in the confessional is time spent in service of the spiritual patrimony of the Church and the salvation of souls.”
“In its place a disturbing culture of blame and litigiousness has arisen which speaks more of revenge than justice and fails to acknowledge that in every man and woman there is a wound which, in the light of faith, we call original sin,” John Paul II lamented. Sums up modern society now. Nobody takes responsibility, somebody else must be at fault.
