Sign after sign after sign...

Don't be too sure of that, Kathy. Until a few years ago I suppose I would have agreed with you but since then I have had more contact with non-Catholic clergy with 'High Church' beliefs. I was particularly impressed by the gentle way one non-Catholic priest in particular told me that he had no doubts about the miracle that happened at the time he consecrated the bread and wine. After reflecting on the matter over a period of time I came to realise that despite the possibility (or likelihood!) of invalid orders etc, God can not be 'forced into a corner' so to speak by such difficulties. Is there any good reason why God would not perform the miracle of transubstantiation during the Mass of such a non-Catholic priest?

 

Matthew18:18
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew16:19
19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven, and whatever you may bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you may loosen on earth will be loosen in heaven.

 

Josephite, your quotes from Matthew in no way conflict with what I have said in my posting.

 

Invalid ordination. Otherwise anyone could say the words and wish the Holy Spirit to magic the bread and wine into the Blessed Eucharist.

 

This is not about 'magic'. It is about God's gift. I ask again, is there any good reason why God would not perform the miracle of transubstantiation during the Mass of a believing but non-Catholic priest, regardless of whether his orders were valid or not?

 

I get what you are saying David. True all things are possible with God. What I don't get is if a Protestant believes in what the Catholic Church teaches why are they not a Catholic. How could you not desire in all your heart to become Catholic? You believe in the truth wouldn't you want to run to that truth? To not want to run to that truth seems to be a denial of the Lord to me. There is one thing we can say for sure. If you are in heaven you are a Catholic. You may have not been a catholic before your died but you are one in heaven. The Catholic Church is the one, true church. In heaven we will know fully the church. To believe in those truths on Earth and yet still deny it in some way by continuing to practice your Protestant beliefs just doesn't seem right to me. It seems to be a denial of the truth that the Lord is placing in their hearts. Also that pastor would still be teaching Protestant beliefs to their flock which could be going against what truth may be stirring in their souls and further confusing them away from coming to know the truth. I just don't see how a non catholic priest could could have a part in changing bread into the body and blood of the Lord. If that were to occur then that priest would be administering the Eucharist to their congregation where many would be eating their own condemnation because they have never been absolved of their sins. That congregation could have practicing homosexuals in it, married homosexuals, divorced and remarried, etc. It would not seem likely to me that if the change occurred it would not be the true presence for some in the congregation and bread for others. You follow me? I am not saying it is not possible but the concussion around that makes it unlikely to me.

 

More wishful thinking than magic. The man, however holy, either believes in transubstantiation or he doesn't. If he does, why is he still Protestestant? The Holy Orders conferred on him didn't give him the authority to confect a transubstantiated host because he was ordained by a bishop of a church that doesn't believe in or teach transubstantiation..

 

Yes, I understand your reply, Andy, and it is a reply that many Catholics would share. But, as you agree, all things are possible and we must not try to 'pigeon hole' God and fit Him into our own mindset. The reason Pope Francis is attracting so much opposition is that his mindset is free of the 'we are right and you are wrong' attitude to his fellow man, especially to fellow Christians. We have to try to accept that our fellow Christians view their faith in a different way to those who are 'born and bred' Catholics. It all comes back to the 'do not judge' message that is so important in the Christian message.

 

The sacramental order Is bound up with the sacramental priesthood.
They have no valid orders therfore they are merely playing dress up no matter how sincere their faith may be.

God has ordained that supernatural grace come through the Church he established. I seriously recommend you take some catechism classes as carried to its logical conclusion your position would make the Church redundant.

Remember that this is God's plan he could have chosen an infinite number of ways to sanctify men. He chose His Church as the instrument of salvation.

 

Thank God, Malachi, for your response because if the Pope is preaching that the Catholic Church doesn't have the fullness of revealed Truth, then the Pope is preaching heresy.

 

No one has suggested that the Catholic Church hasn't the fullness of revealed truth, least of all Pope Francis although he would make it clear that the Church has a long way to go in its understanding of that revealed truth.

 

Indeed, but the problem comes when we define 'the Church'. You would presumably define it as the Roman Catholic Church and exclude everyone outside it as not part of 'the Church'. Pope Francis would not agree with you.

 

So you think that the Pope is teaching that your friend can confect the Eucharist because you like him, he seems holy, and he believes in transubstantiation? You think that the Pope is teaching that because God can do something, he will do it just because your friend wills God to do it? You see nothing hypocritical about someone who professes publicly to believe what his Church teaches by virtue of his ordination, but tells you privately that he holds a different belief on something as fundamental as the Holy Eucharist? There's a difference between developing understanding and contradicting what has always been held to be True.

 

Yes Mac, I too am not going to be in that position which is why I added thankfully I only need to worry over my own worthiness to receive

 

So now any nice guy walking down the road is part of The Church? Do you realize you are saying our sacraments are useless/unnecessary? First communion? No need. Confirmation. No need. Holy Orders? Not necessary. You are not teaching Catholicism, you are contradicting it and the writings of great saints and doctors.

 

First of all, the word 'confect' is totally inappropriate in this matter. I was simply pointing out that God could perform the miracle in the case of my non-Catholic priest friend and I asked why couldn't God do that. Malachi has partly answered my question but, for me, the priest is a member of Christ's Church albeit not the Roman Catholic section of it.

 

The main question is when and how. Could there be a time that it could happen...That is the mystery of God. Did God give us a road map to saint hood...yes he did (The Catholic Church).

But I think many people would be surprised how much God is involved in even the most hardened sinner.

 

We could go on all day in this vein. How do you define this how do you define that blah blah. I'm schooled enough and have no time for puerile tangents that get us nowhere.

The Catholic Church, no need for the Roman this is merely a protestant pejorative prefix, traces it's origins to Christ himself. It is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

Have you ever heard of apostolic succession? It would appear not.

Even heretics when legitimately baptised are baptised into its fold. Hence we can say that their baptisms are valid though illicit.

This is really basic stuff. I am presuming you are Catholic but if not you should get yourself a simple apologetics book which might help you.

 

I would hardly think that trying to come to an agreed understanding of what we mean by 'the Church' is a 'puerile distraction' (or tangent!). But I agree that it will be best to close our exchanges which are unlikely to be fruitful.

 

The word "confect" is very appropriate in this matter. When Kathy said that Communion from a Protestant Minister would not be the body and blood of the lord, your response was "don't be so sure of that" and you went on to give the example of your friend. That response directly contradicts Church teaching, no matter what interpretation you put on the Pope's "who am I to judge" comment. The priest is a member of Christ's church by his Trinitarian baptism, just as any other Protestant. He has no more authority to confect the Eucharist than any other Protestant.

Plenty of people here are very quick to bash Mac and Brian for twisting the message of Pope Francis. I hope the same people will take heed of your interpretation of his message and see that, however harsh their criticisms, there is some validity to their concerns.