As you know Padraig, "willed and procured abortion" for any reason was condemned by Paul VI. The miracle that led to his beatification was that of the curing of an unborn child. Just thought I would give the end of the story. Paul VI is in heaven. Like St John Paul II an assasination attempt was made on this saint's life. The blood stained relics of this attempt have been preserved.
Hi Padraig Can I ask, were these abortions actually carried out. Did permission come from the pope or was it mediated by someone else? I have tried to find a source and lost a nights sleep.
I wouldn't go that far. Basically Christ gave us the Sacrament of Confession to assure that grave sins are forgiven. What might happen with other Christians (and other religions for that matter) who are sorry for their sins is not given for us to know. We do know that God is merciful and wants to forgive sins. It is similar to the question of what happens to children who die without being baptized. We commend them to the mercy of God.
We might be mixing up abortion/contraception debate: In the late 1960's, Sister Claire Murphy was teaching school as a lonely missionary in Nigeria. The Biafran war had just begun when she received an unexpected package from her church. "The Vatican had sent me a whole cupboard full" of birth-control pills, Sister Claire recalled with a thin-lipped smile. "It was OK to protect the nuns against rape by the soldiers, but not the girls in our school." http://articles.latimes.com/1992-08-22/news/mn-5211_1_roman-catholic-church The pill is of course an abortifacient. http://europeanlifenetwork.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/row-breaks-out-over-availability-of.html
With regard to the contraception and divorce debates of course our progressive Cardinals turn a blind eye!! (my 'humorous' translation in red) Cardinal Kasper “Well, the Church is not against birth control at all. … It’s about the methods of birth control. … I do not want to enter into this characteristic…how they have to do it. It’s their personal conscience and their personal responsibility.” (Nudge, wink, say no more - I know it happens but I dare not tell them the truth that if they use the pill they are undoubtedly aborting their children). http://www.positivepharmacy.org/ind...ised/25-do-contraceptive-pills-cause-abortion Cardinal Kasper, whose theological works have been praised by Pope Francis as “serene” and “kneeling theology,” laid out a plan at the February consistory of cardinals to allow divorced and civilly remarried Catholics to return to the reception of Communion “after a period of penance,” but without making any change in their circumstances. (Like the contraceptive situation we will turn a blind eye! Nudge, nudge, wink say no more). Now let us compare Cardinal Kasper's teaching to that of Padre Pio (and Holy Scriptures). Padre Pio "My sons, the world is catching fire! Fight with all your strength against divorce and abortion." Padre Pio said this sorrowfully to the regional delegate of Catholic doctors of Umbria in 1968, the year of his death (The Voice of Padre Pio, No. 4 1987, p.10) Holy people understand the truth "For I hate divorce, says the Lord, the God of Israel" (Malachi 2v16)
G thanks for the link. Pope Paul is in question (of Mortal sin ) from a self proclaimed radical feminist nun from Ireland? Who wants to change the Church. From The LA Times, ultra left newspaper in the USA... COLUMN ONE : Nuns Join Feminist Front Lines : The newest members of the Irish women's movement challenge the Roman Catholic Church from within. They speak out on abortion, contraception and divorce. August 22, 1992|TAMARA JONES | TIMES STAFF WRITER DUBLIN, Ireland — The outrage of Sister Claire Murphy flickered to life 25 years ago in a remote Nigerian village where she found herself teaching school as a lonely missionary. The Biafran war had just begun when the young Irish nun received an unexpected package from the church. "The Vatican had sent me a whole cupboard full" of birth control pills, Sister Claire recalled with a thin-lipped smile. "It was OK to protect the nuns against rape by the soldiers, but not the girls in our school." She threw the pills out and kept quiet. Now, at 62, Sister Claire is no longer keeping her own counsel. Instead, she is openly challenging the hypocrisies she sees within the Roman Catholic Church. She is one of a surprising number of the 1,200 nuns in this deeply Catholic nation who suddenly are daring to take controversial stands on emotional issues such as abortion, contraception, divorce, the ordination of women and the Scriptures themselves. They are a small but integral part of Ireland's new feminism--nuns who speak not of obedience but of empowerment--and to many Irish women, they form not so much a bridge to the patriarchal church but a tunnel through it. The Pope sent her contraception? lol Nothing like a feminist nun to accuse the Pope who said Birth Control is a no no to claim she was sent BC from the Vatican. http://articles.latimes.com/1992-08-22/news/mn-5211_1_roman-catholic-church
I had an interesting experience last night before bed and this thread seems to be the best place to post this in at the time. It is no secret by my posts these last few days that my heart is bleeding for the forum, its members and the whole church and whole world for that matter and I am deeply troubled, confused and distraught. I strive to look for the good in all people because I truly believe that even the most evil person in the world has time to be saved as long as they live and breath. If you think differently then you can only look to St. Paul as your example. I truly don't know who or what the Pope is and I appreciate those on both sides of this discussion (I don't like the word debate it seems so combative) but I do still look for the good fruits in him despite the fact that he is a man and is a sinner. I also don't know where we are in God's timeline (if there is such a thing when God is outside of time). Last night I picked up my bible and spoke to the Lord about my troubled heart and conflicts and asked Him to take me somewhere to help me understand where and what is going on. I have done this a few times in the past and have been astonished by its result. After the prayer I opened the bible to this passage: Ezeckiel 43: [1] And he brought me to the gate that looked towards the east. [2] And behold the glory of the God of Israel came in by the way of the east: and his voice was like the noise of many waters, and the earth shone with his majesty. [3] And I saw the vision according to the appearance which I had seen when he came to destroy the city: and the appearance was according to the vision which I had seen by the river Chobar: and I fell upon my face. [4] And the majesty of the Lord went into the temple by the way of the gate that looked to the east. [5] And the spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court: and behold the house was filled with the glory of the Lord. [6] And I heard one speaking to me out of the house, and the man that stood by me, [7] Said to me: Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever: and the house of Israel shall no more profane my holy name, they and their kings by their fornications, and by the carcasses of their kings, and by the high places. [8] They who have set their threshold by my threshold, and their posts by my posts: and there was but a wall between me and them: and they profaned my holy name by the abominations which they committed: for which reason I consumed them in my wrath. [9] Now therefore let them put away their fornications, and the carcasses of their kings far from me: and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. [10] But thou, son of man, shew to the house of Israel the temple, and let them be ashamed of their iniquities, and let them measure the building: There was so much in the above that hit home for me and I am not going to analyze it all here but it definitely speaks to me of the times we are in and the hour we are in. I will say that the very first verses made me think of the door of Mercy being opened for not just all those who seek mercy to enter but also the Lord Himself will enter through that door and take His seat. Before He takes His seat as the judge presiding over the court first He takes His seat to grant mercy for those who seek it. He also comes to discipline and correct His church. Keep your eyes on the Lord after falling on your face of course!!
Padraig, ever since your 'flip' (apologies for the facetious word) the question that has been bugging me is was there an article you read, a person you spoke to, or whatever , that was the trigger to this ' sudden' and v dramatic change in public position with regards Pope Francis. I would be most grateful if you would be willing to share with the forum what that one thing was that was the final catalysist for your decision (which i applaud) to publicly nail your colours to the mast as they say. Thanks
Yes, she is an apostate today amongst many apostates in the Church who continue to undermine Church teaching. But she was a nun during the Biafran civil war and confirms that nuns were being raped during the conflict just as Padraig stated.
Thanks G, I was not doubting nuns being raped at all. My question more was about the Pope himself sending BC to nuns, sounded odd to me to be honest. That era was the rise of rebellion against all things good and wholesome world wide. Crazy times G....Lord have Mercy on us all
Paul VI gave the Church one of its greatest and most profound teachings "Humanae Vitae". Anyone really interested in the 'signs of the times' needs to take time to read it - it is so prophetic and relevant to today's Church. Pope Paul VI preached the narrow path of salvation for the faithful and no compromise with the spirit of the world which is the spirit of satan himself. http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-v...ments/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html
Remember that these nuns if they used cups or whatever did so not with the intent of contracepting per se but to protect themselves from further violation of their bodily integrity by being forcefully impregnated by a rapist monster. Intention completely changes the character of the act in question
The point is they are allowed to take measures to avoid being impregnated with a rapists seed. To use another oft quoted example it is licit for a woman to have recourse to the birth control pill to regulate problems with her menstrual cycle. Intent is key
Well, back then they probably didn't know about the abortifacent action of the pill. The moral evaluation may very well be different now...can you take measures to avoid being impregnated by a rapist when it is also possible that it will actually KILL a life already conceived? I doubt it.
Yes, a woman can have recourse to birth control pill for medical purposes if she is not sexually active.
A protestant can make an act of perfect contrition as can any sinner. http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=370862
Thanks for your insight Malachi. My original question to Padraig wasn't over if the nuns used contraception, but of Blessed Pope PaulVI personally approving/sending BC to nuns in Africa. The news article seems to imply this/these events happened in the 1970s' after Humane Vitea. We have started with Francis talking off the back porch. Then lightning hitting the Vatican , (some posts) symbol of Gods anger over Bendecit stepping down. ( contrary to what Scott Hahn had to say ) Now were at Blessed Pope Paul VI allegedly giving out BC to nuns. The news story is to the LA Times. That's California, the most progressive US State in the Union. Catholic bashing is a sport on the Left Coast...sorry FS I know Popes have personnel sin, we all do. Seems strange to me whats goin on here. Just bein honest.
I have to go to work now but have I missed a response to your request for the source of Padraig's report that Blessed Paul VI personally and without coercion permitted nuns to have an abortion when raped.
