Andy, God is merciful. He does not expect every person to get it all right. During the Great Schism there were 2, then 3 Popes at the same time. Great Saints were found supporting all of them. The key is if the Church ever says anything strange that it has never said in it's history then stick with St. Vincent of Lerins' prescription for detecting heresy, which is asking if what is being proposed is "That which is believed everywhere, in all times, by all [people]." Meaning have all Catholics always done this or is this some "new" belief. Examples of what the Church has always believed: Active homosexuality has always been a mortal sin. Divorced and civilly remarried Catholics have never been able to receive Holy Communion.
The Jesuit colleges here in the U.S. are the absolute worst, which is a shame. Unless the Jesuit has "Fessio" after his name, I run in proverbial terror if I hear the word "Jesuit". (Kidding just a little, but not much) St. Ignatius Loyola must be turning over in his grave.
Apparently you are unaware of the situation of the Jesuits here in the US. Just check out any of the "supposed" catholic university they run. Are you serious? Just check out the Cardinal Kung foundation to check how many of them they recommend. Send your kids there and watch them lose their faith. Read Fr Malachi Martin's book The Jesuits, he was one of them.
Prae, in fairness to Joes comment. I don't believe hes speaking of the whole Jesuit order. I can only at thhe moment think of a few Jesuit Giants in the US, and im sure are many more throughout the World. Fr John Hardon Fr Fessio Ignatius Press (US Catholic renewal) Fr Mitch Pacwa EWTN Just these 3 destroy the rest of the renegades....just my opinion Fr John, went onto his Heavenly reward, but his Spirit is with us still...One day Saint and hopefully declared Dr of the Church
In the many retreats that I attended of Servant of God Father John Hardon SJ, I learned that nearly all of the priests in his order despised him. Once we had a visiting Jesuit priest say mass at my parish and afterwards I asked him if he knew of Father Hardon and he said, ah yes and that he wondered how he could live with a last name like that. Its the only time I wanted to poke a priest in the nose, but I just shook my head at him in disgust. Yes, Father Hardon mentioned on several occasions how the order had lost its salt, especially from its founders spirituality.
Andy: An awful lot of what you say resonates with me. I teeter from one side of the fence to the other on all this. I don't believe for one second that Pope Francis is evil, the False Prophet or a heretic. I have a feeling (conscious that feelings are not fact and are often groundless) that the Pope is faced with a possible schism by a chunk of the Church in Germany and is trying everything he can to keep it intact. He does seem to be too close to Cardinal Kasper, but that doesn't mean he is incapable of thinking for himself. Remember that he knows as well as any of us that the Holy Spirit will protect Christ's Church. The open Communion faction are very good at putting forward heartbreaking cases while playing down the ramifications for the worldwide Church (much like the pro-choice crowd do with abortion). We all would like to wave a magic wand to help the hard cases, but we know it would be wrong to accede to the Kasper proposal. Fortunately for us, we don't have that responsibility. Pope Francis must know that if he agrees in any way to Communion for what in the Church's eyes are adulterers, he takes their sin upon himself, yet he wants to find some way to help them. That much responsibility would send most of us to an early grave. He could be promoting Kasper's friends to keep him sweet, but whatever Kasper does to keep cafeteria Catholics in Germany from ticking the "no religion" box on their tax returns, any loosening of Church teaching will see it go the way of the Protestant churches that embrace everything and anything to keep their numbers up. Meanwhile, the Church is growing in Africa and can't be ignored. I think that Pope Francis doesn't want Schism either from the pro or anti Kasper camps, so will stick to Doctrine in his Apostolic Exhortation. I have a feeling that any division will come with the next Pope, especially if the open Communion people get their man elected. With the topic having been brought to the table under this Pope, it would be easier for his successor to changes the rules at a future Synod if Pope Francis doesn't make a very clear statement defending the current rules. If he uses language that can be construed either way, then we're heading for trouble. I agree with much of what you say about modern marriages. Sadly, many of them are not sacramental. I'm not so sure, however, that being not sacramental equates to being invalid. These are theological matters that I don't fully understand but I do understand that it is a very serious matter and a huge responsibility for the Church to declare that a marriage never happened. That's another responsibility that would see me in an early grave. We all have our days when we criticise Church Hierarchy, but how many of us could carry the load? I couldn't. I can and do pray for all our priests and bishops. Right now that's all we can do while we wait for Pope Francis to have his final say. Incidentally, I'm no fan of the Jesuits. P.S. to Infant Jesus of Prague: I've saved the Lectio Divina link to my favourites and intend having a good read of it.
Nice Dolours, im wasn't gonna post the link at first. As Fr Apastoli says, don't rush thru anything you read. Let the Lord work. Some exceptions. Reading the Bible for head knowledge, But Lectio for Heart knowledge May the 2 become one for us all
Thanks, IJoP. Fr. Hardon is one of the saintliest priests of this, or any other era. And Fr. Pacwa is great too. I'm sure there are more, but the Jesuits as a whole are infested with modernism & heresies.
The people here who think the Pope is wrong agree that he is the valid Pope. They would not follow a different pope who was not valid during a schism.
Lack of faith is NOT a reason. Even marriage between two atheists is considered valid (though not sacramental). Not intending permanence IS a reason, i.e. Thinking you will just get a divorce if it doesn't work out. I think a lot of marriages would be in that category.
Joe, I may actually have to retract my last statement. I was assuming the Jesuits were the same the world over, but perhaps I am wrong on this point. Maybe there are a bunch of good eggs down your way. I just know that here in the U.S. they have a reputation for being, well...odd.
As I said there are very good Jesuits. The 3 you named are among them. I was only speaking in generalities. However I did post a "possible retraction". It did not occur to me that the group might vary greatly the world over.
Im not tryin to bust your chops, if I came across that way. The order turned on Mother Church for sure, I just wanted to point out a few stellar Jesuits who lived up to the calling and greatly impacted all on MOG on way or another. If it wasn't for Mother Angelica pointing to Fr Fessio, and the new CA RSV Bible in blue, I would still thought Jesuits were all rouge. I only met one Jesuit before Mothers promotion. He assisted at my old Parish. Fr was a missionary in Latin America for some time, every homily was about liberation theology...ughhh I used to walk out in later days when he was the Celebrant...may the Lord have Mercy on his soul
This is not entirely true. The Catholic Church does permit intercommunion with the Orthodox. (The Orthodox don't permit it.) Protestants may be allowed to receive under specific (and usually rare) circumstances. Canon 844 (c.671 in the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches) 1. Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments to Catholic members of the Christian faithful only and, likewise, the latter may licitly receive the sacraments only from Catholic ministers with due regard for parts 2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, part 2. 2. Whenever necessity requires or genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for the faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose churches these sacraments are valid. 3. Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask on their own for the sacraments and are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches, which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned. 4. If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed. 5. For the cases in parts 2, 3, and 4, neither the diocesan bishop nor the conference of bishops is to enact general norms except after consultation with at least the local competent authority of the interested non- Catholic Church or community. https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/intercommunion.htm https://www.osv.com/TheChurch/Chris...3690/ArticleID/6632/Intercommunion-rules.aspx http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2015/04/when-non-catholics-receive-communion/
Non of us are prophets, to me I think its hard to say what anyone will do in that dreadful time to come. We can all say I wont deny you Lord, like Peter. We all hope this way, im sure. But the cock crowed thrice...are we any different? The Prayer prayer of Padre Pio line Stay with me Lord its getting Dark
Thank you Jeanne. I stand corrected on that point. I have Russian Orthodox relatives and so I am familiar that they share the sacraments with us and my thought process was not in that dierection. I was thinking mainly of Protestants when I wrote that as that was the main topic of the thread. Thank you for the research. I never want to mislead. I will edit my post. It is interesting to note the fact that in exceptional circumstances even Protestants have been allowed to receive Holy Communion. I almost hit the floor when I read that. I cannot for the life of me figure out the rationale the person who wrote that canon up was using. How can someone receive the Holy Eucharist if they haven't been to confession? I know it is technically possible for a person to receive baptism and never commit a mortal sin, but this is something reserved for the great saints. Apparently the Church doesn't have a problem with this though. If your post is not overlooked it could cause a firestorm on the thread here.
Fr Hardon passed away a few years ago, he was one of the driving forces in founding Roman Catholic Faithful.
