Apostasy

Once you bring error out on the table to be discussed along with real issues you give it validation. There is no point in discussing the possible validity of something which is now and always has been incompatible with Christianity.

Why don't we discuss the altruism of abortion doctors?

 

No one denies the mercy of God and the desire of God that all be saved. There is more joy in heaven over one repentant sinner---

The marital act being in its nature procreative and unitive is for marriage only in the plan of God.

All sexual activity outside of this context is disordered and sinful. Disgraceful rather than graced as you put it.

 

While working away in my clinic I had a vision of a great crowd of people, none of whom I knew, going over the edge of a cliff into the abyss and I fell I great sadness and sense of loss. I think this was the first time I had a real appreciation of the pain that is felt in heaven when sinners take this path, and a real sense of the love that is offered to help sinners. I really loved these strangers. They need help before they reach the edge. They need to be drawn into the church. Pope Francis is trying to do this.

 

Yes, read Mark Mallett's latest - that's exactly what you are saying here:

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/the-scandal-of-mercy/

 

Mark succinctly lays it on the line with this paragraph:

"Such Catholics reveal their lack of faith in the petrine promises of Christ (or their arrogance in setting them aside). If the man occupying the Seat of Peter has been validly elected, then he is anointed with the charism of infallibility when it comes to matters of faith and morals in official promulgations. What if the Pope attempts to change a pastoral practice that in fact becomes scandalous? Then, like Paul, “Peter” will have to be corrected. [4] The question is, will you lose faith in Jesus’ ability to build His Church if the “rock” also becomes a “stumbling stone”? If we suddenly discover that the Pope has fathered ten children, or God forbid, committed a grave offense against a child, will you lose your faith in Jesus and His ability to guide the Barque of Peter, as He has in the past, when popes have scandalized others by their infidelities? That is the question here, to be sure: a crisis of faith in Jesus Christ."

 

What hit me about Mark's beautiful blog was that exact great sadness and sense of loss that Aloysius described, in the case of the woman Mark met who had had an abortion, went to Confession, and was denied forgiveness because it was reserved to the bishop. How absolutely heartbreaking and tragic! Her entire life and eternal destiny may have been turned for the worse because of this. This woman will be in my prayers - I pray that she will hear of Pope Francis' gesture and again be turned towards the light.

 

Here is another recently blog that I think is even more direct than Mark's and also spot on

http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2015/09/obedience-to-pope-being-faithful-to-god.html

 

Thanks Mary's Child. I have heard of Mark Mallet but am not familiar with his work.
I have just read this link. Brilliant. Thanks.

 

Ah, the adolescent Nurembourg Defence - it wasn't me it was somebody else ... and yet it ended up here somehow .

If it worries you ... instead of doing an impersonal and uncommitted hit and run ... why not discuss it with others who are not so fearful. That's the mature way of dealing with anxiety. You might get a different perpective to make sense of things.
To think that many experienced Cardinals are foolish or of the devil just because I do not understand is more likely about my limitations than theirs .

 

Why is this particular interpretation the "obvious" one to you MC.
In fact there is no theological reason to suppose a person cannot be graced by God even while being an adulterer or a drunkard and dying as one. That is precisely the difference between "material sin" and "formal sin" that many members here have such difficulty understanding.

And this theology comes from Pope MC or can you provide a sure Magisterial teaching on this point for us to back up your seemingly erroneous assertion here please?

I believe you will find yourself quite mistaken. You are confusing legal "putative adultery" with actual adultery.
An Anullment, by definition, is an official recognition that there never was a marriage bond before God. If there never was a marriage bond there never was formal adultery, only material/technical adultery.
Are you familiar with "Radical Sanations?" If what you opine was true these would be impossible MC

You may be confusing Annulments with Dissolutions.
WRT Dissolution ... there was a natural marriage bond, but now it is dissolved and is no more. However between the time of the natural marriage and the dissolution, if one has another sexual relationship it will truly be adultery.

 

I admire your analytical intellect BH but its beyond me. Maybe I am just tired after a hard days work and worried about the LTTW predictions that all my hard earned money will soon be worth nothing. I am sure some on this blog understand your insight but I always try to explain medical conditions in everyday terms. Off to say my rosary.

 

G we need to understand there is a significant difference between "disordered" and "mortally sinful."
One can habitually engage in grave disordered acts (eg breaking the commandments) and yet possess sanctifying grace in one's soul.

This is why even habitual disordered sex relations, whether hetero or homo, do not by that reason alone rob all souls of a graced relationship with God.

That is why many Cardinals ask us to consider the virtues and graces that exist even in disordered relationships.
In my experience "good" Catholics are particularly susceptible to a sort of theological "all or nothing" digital thinking that cannot cope with this mixture of grace and disorder. We want people to be either goodies or baddies, we cannot cope with ambiguity for some reason.

 

Its nothing to do with my intellect Joe, I am an averagely intelligent Catholic.

But at the age of 18 I decided I wanted an adult understanding of my faith - which I gained by taking a 6 year degree with Roman trained and licensed, clerical professors of theology, philosophy and Scripture.

That was a very expensive education (partially paid for by my Parish).
Now 57, at this stage of my life I have chosen to try and give back back to my Catholic brothers and sisters here on MOG by my relatively moderate (at tertiary level) comments and what most here will see as unusual views.

Of course you and many others think I am a raving liberal.
I accept that I will be rejected for my views even though they are quite moderate at tertiary level. You have no idea what raving theologically trained liberals are really like. I was derided by them when at Catholic Uni. They did not take the heavy duty traditional phil and theology papers I (and my Dominican friends) took.

 

That explains it. Thanks and well done. I will try again tomorrow. I lost my love of scripture when I studied it at seminary. I have since re found it.

 

Todays reading at mass really struck home. The message for me is that arguing , for the sake of arguing is a waste of time.

1 Timothy 6:2-12English Standard Version
2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved.

False Teachers and True Contentment
Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. 8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.


Fight the Good Fight of Faith
11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

 

Puffed up with conceit?

yeah , right on.

 

Thats interesting Joe. I think I know what happened to you because I experienced something similar and it took me many "desert years" to come to grips with the tertiary level approach to SS. Would you like to tease out your experience?

 

The analysis was so finely spread as to dry it out and all the flavour was lost.

 

There are three requirements to be met in order to commit mortal sin. Grave matter, full knowledge and full consent. That's how I understand it. There is much moral theology, but how much is magisterial? Isn't there a real risk of slipping into a universalist heresy? Wasn't von Balthasar very close to this precipice? Please forgive me if I'm being too blunt and I hope I don't come across the wrong way.

 

I agree, thats exactly it DG. We can engage in "grave matter" but that alone, while disordered, is not yet mortally sinful. If either understanding or full consent is in some way lacking it may only be venial sin or mere material sin - a "transgression". Venial sins and material sin do not destroy the root of sanctifying grace in our souls.

Obviously engaging in habitual "grave matter" is putting our souls on the precipice.
However it is clear that people can have constitutional impediments to full consent and understanding which, as it were, save them from what, for stronger people, would certainly be mortal sin.

I believe our Cardinals are asking us to look at our Catholic remarried (and those in homosexual cohabitations), who are Catholic in every other aspect of their lives, in this more wholistic fashion.

BTW what was your concern with Cardinal von Balthasar? He was one of Pope Benedict's favourite theologians I believe. I have recently started reading some of his major works for my daily spiritual reading - pretty heavy going.