Vatican 2 If the priest is validly ordained and says the words of consecration then the Mass is valid. You are in effect saying that many Masses are not valid because the specific instructions of Vatican 2 are "often (usually) not followed" (your words in brackets). I am struggling to understand your position Steve. In an earlier post you also said you did not have to give assent to Vatican 2 council documents. Yet one the preconditions for the SSPX returning from schism into full communion with Rome was quote "Vatican 2 and post Conciliar magesterium must be accepted in full". Forgive me if I am not reading you right but seems to me you have real problems with Vatican 2.
Sorry Mac. Can you explain what you mean about conservative in the context of the above quote? Maybe I am having an off day but I am struggling to understand some peoples take on the authenticity of Vatican 2 which is what this thread is about. Or maybe I am getting a little older!
Everyone sees the reverence and honor given God in the Tridentine Mass, I bet it will be the only Form in the Era of Peace. But, I remember a message about the New Mass. 7/25/07 http://www.godspeakswillyoulisten.org/ ...Satan wants to destroy belief in my mass. He does not care which method he uses. By questioning the validity of the Novo Ordo Mass, you are causing people to leave my church and deny my presence in the Eucharist. You will be held responsible for all the souls, which you have caused to be led astray. I am a God of humility. It is my humility which has brought about your salvation. My desire is for all to be saved. I will go to whatever lengths, to save a soul. The loss of one soul to hell, causes much sorrow and grief in my sacred heart. For I told you, there is much joy over one sinner who repents. Who are you to judge the workings of my spirit? My people, the Tridentine Mass brings great honor and glory to my Father, myself, and the Holy Spirit. Please Ponder on this: There is much evil in your world. How do you know the Novo Order Mass, was not inspired by my spirit? I knew there would be sacrilegious communions, lack of reverence in my churches, and lack of belief in my presence in the Eucharist. But I will do anything for the salvation of souls. I will humiliate myself to great extremes to save my people. I will sacrifice my honor and glory to save my people and bring my presence to my people. What will you do for the salvation of souls? Since the introduction of the Novo Ordo Mass, many protestants and others have entered my church, who otherwise would not have. Many conversions and Eucharistic miracles have occurred with both rites of my mass. For the most important thing to me, is to share my presence and to save the souls of my people. With the mass said in the vernacular languages, many souls have learned to love me and have come back to the shepherd of their souls. If you continue to fight over the validity of the mass, do you even care about souls? For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. I receive honor and glory, not from the praise of men, but through the salvation of souls. ...
There is great wisdom in the message above. Anyone who questions the validity of the Novus Ordos Mass or Church Councils (post Pius X) is not living in the heart of the Church, but in schism. Many, Many canonized saints and holy clergy and laity have celebrated the N/O Mass for the past nearly 50 years. Our Lord is in control. The gates of hell will never prevail against the Church. The Latin Mass is beautiful, but for most it passed its effectiveness, not in holiness, but in comprehension for the average Catholic. It isolated many from understanding their worship. The same thing happened several times with the OT and NT writings. First written in Hebrew (the language of the people of God), then into Greek (the common language among the learned about 100 years before Christ), then into Latin by St. Jerome around 425AD, then into English Douay Rheims around 1582, and even earlier versions than that. All this change did not mean the Church lost its way, it meant that it can adapt to the current world language and not loose its essence. Same with the Mass.
Wow!!! This message absolutely expresses my heart regarding all the fighting in the Church. If the enemy can't stop the parade, he'll lead it. We can easily go into the ditch on the right as the left... I humbly suggest that anyone who is spending their time fighting these fights should get deeper into prayer. Years ago, I lived in a small community with a priest who was completely off the reservation. The people were so humble and obedient, that they overlooked his heresy or didn't know the faith well enough to recognize it. I considered it my job to correct him, although I don't recall asking the Lord for direction in this matter! Over time I noticed that I was most likely to take him on during times of great trial in my own life when I had lost my peace. I spoke the truth to him, but not with love, and it had no impact on him at all. Later, a holy bishop took over and this priest was sent for "re-education". Perhaps it would have happened sooner if I'd spent my time praying for him instead of fighting with him.
We have to believe that prayer is powerful, really believe in its power, otherwise it's just lip service.
Kathy said...I humbly suggest that anyone who is spending their time fighting these fights should get deeper into prayer. I do agree with this Kathy, personal sanctification ranks utmost, way beyond Catholics trying to' evangelise others' Catholics who probably couldnt even tell you the 10 commandments,let alone the 6 commandments of the church.[i dont mean forum members]. Anyway Im away for the next few days . So God Bless all and behave
There is a place for healthy debate on the forum if conducted in a spirit of respect and honesty. That is why I have asked for clarification from Mac and Steve on this thread. Let us be clear about the essentials though. When Jesus said "you are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church" he meant it. It is His Church and he guarantees that the Pope cannot fall into heresy. Be careful that you are in communion with His Church with Francis as the rock. I fear many liberal and conservative Catholics carry schism in their hearts.
Garabandal, the problem is that you consistently go way off topic. You keep inferring much more from my input than I am saying and you are doing this every time. Could I ask you to just 'stick to the point', when responding to me and not make unwarranted and uncharitable assumptions about me.
Anyway, getting back to the point - . If you can't spend an hour on this (understandable) listen from about 40 mins. when the priest says what Vat II's Sacrosanctum Concilium document says about the Mass and contrasts the result - they are very different. It should be noted that this good priest is in Communion with the Pope as a member of the FSSP (NOT to be confused with the SSPX who do not recognise the validity of the Novus Ordo) but who says only the Traditional Latin Mass. It should also be noted that hundreds of priests (mostly elderly) at the time of the introduction of the Novus Ordo Mass declined to celebrate it and remained in good standing in the Church, including one who has since been canonised, St. Pio of Pietrelcina, whose views I respect.
Steve, My spiritual advisor was also a member of FSSP. No arguing with any of your points but you can end up going down a rabbit hole. For example, a lot of his friends, other priests, were going to "faithful" bishops to get re-ordained because they questioned the bishops who ordained them because they felt entered the priesthood to destroy the church and thus were invalid themselves. The idea was that their ordinations might not be valid which would mean they were not consecrated, invalid sacraments etc, etc.
I certainly wouldn't support those priests seeking 're-ordination'. But I am an old man and recall the silence observed in churches before and after Mass during the 'old days', now I can hardly hear myself pray for the chatter going on, including, sadly, some priests. People seem to have lost the awareness that Jesus is actually present in the tabernacle and that they should be talking to Him. I don't intend to head down a 'rabbit hole' on this one and I am in some very good company: Cardinal Burke has given an interview for The Catholic Servant, reproduced in The Wanderer, on the subject of the Church and Modern Society. He speaks, with characteristic clarity, on a wide range of issues including the effects of Summorum Pontificum, the reform of the Curia, the ever-growing rift between Catholic teaching and the political landscape and Catholics, particularly politicians, who fail to understand and support Catholic teaching. Asked if he sees concrete benefits resulting from Summorum Pontificum he replies: I have witnessed a number of benefits. First, there is now a much stronger sense of the divine action in the Ordinary Form. There was a certain tendency in the celebration of the Ordinary Form to center attention on the priest and the congregation rather than on Christ, Who comes into the midst of the congregation through the ministry of the priest acting in His Person to give the gift of His life as He first gave it on Calvary and to make that sacrifice new for us in each holy Mass. Another closely connected benefit is an appreciation of the true reform of the liturgy desired by the Council, namely a reform that would be in continuity with the centuries-long tradition of the Church, not a renewal that would be a break from that liturgical tradition. The celebration of the two Forms of the Roman rite have led to a growing consciousness of the need to retrieve some of the elements of the liturgical tradition too quickly discarded after the Council, contrary to the intention of the Council. In other words, what Pope Benedict XVI had in mind was to promote the reform as it was truly desired by the Council, namely a reform in continuity with the centuries- long tradition of the Church and not a rupture. Later in the interview he links the misinterpretations of the liturgical reforms following Vatican II to the deterioration of the Liturgy and a decline in Mass attendance: Sadly, in the time after the Second Vatican Council, there was a reform of the sacred liturgy which made it man-centered and banal. In some cases it actually became hard for people to bear because of illicit insertions, foreign agendas, and imposition of the personalities of priests and congregations into the liturgy to the point that people began to think that the Mass was some sort of social activity. If they did not find it acceptable, they did not go anymore.
One awful in the Novus Ordo. The priest stands there or goes to sit down and the extraordinary (hah) ministers put away the Blessed Sacrament! I am seeing, one time recently, an elimination of this never should of been done practice. Thank the Lord. And the ridiculous Sign of Peace when we should be thinking of Our Lord, hmm...who does this, rotten fellowship put in the Mass.
I don't think it was the intent of the Novus Ordo Mass, but it surely has become more of a worship of each other than it is worship of God. The music makes everyone click their fingers instead of opening their hearts to the Lord. The jokes that lead off the homily are to amuse rather then stimulate. The pause to clap for the choir, the altar servers, the lectors and anyone else that made the 'celebration' is another form of self worship. Yet, through it all I still try to offer up this vain full self worship best I can. Our Church is largely Hispanic, maybe 40%. They sure know how to celebrate. I was making a visit the other noon and Hispanic's were coming in with the most beautiful flowers to put in front of a very large picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. They are great decorators. What I noticed however, was that they would walk directly in front of the Blessed Sacrament without giving the slightest hesitation to our Lord in the tabernacle. Seemingly not having a clue about our Eucharistic Lord's real presence, but surely anticipating the fiesta taking place later in honor our Lady. Just poor catechesis, but they sure can play the guitars, drums and bongo's during Mass.
The greatest problem that has arisen since Vatican II (and I do not say that it was intended but it is clearly a result of various novelties which were introduced though NOT directly approved by the Council) is the loss of the consciousness of the presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle and His Real Presence in Communion. I am not arguing this point, I KNOW it to be true, because I am old enough to have personally witnessed the loss of appreciation of the Real Presence, that used to exist and is now not generally accepted as proven by the willingness of people to socialize in church before the tabernacle which did not exist pre-Vat II and the fact that everyone present at Mass (or almost all) will receive when the confessionals are nearly unused indicating that many unworthy Communions are being received. A large minority of US Catholics (where attitudes are regularly canvassed) say that they do not believe in the Real Presence and these are not 'nominal' Catholics but those that attend Mass every week. Something went terribly wrong and the general failure to admit it means that it cannot be faced and resolved. The central problem is that the Church continues on a track of being man-centred instead of God-centred. From EBougis blog ‘“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ — Matthew 22:36-37 ‘[T]he first and the greatest of the commandments, and the one that best identifies us as Christ’s disciples [is]: “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”’. — Evangelii Gaudium §161 I am aware of John 13:34-35–”A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”–, but the pope’s written assertion in E.G. manifestly conflates our Lord’s words in Matthew 22.
I thank you SteveD for posting that video of Fr Schneider. He provides wonderful testimony of what I am still struggling to be truly aware of. I may well be blaming the wrong cause yet I think if the Church had continued to insist on us kneeling to receive, how much easier it would have been for me to always be aware of what a 'big deal' it is to receive our Lord. For Good Friday all the congregation most solemly venerate the cross. How Holy Communion is then distributed and received must cathechise us: 'this is not so important'
I just want to share my experience...not to cause disention or to "step in it" ...but because maybe someone else may relate. I've noticed many people pay close attention to the rubics of the Mass. I on the other hand watch the "intention" of the priest. Is he is vigorous, on fire with the love of God, does he show interest and is he sensitive to the family of God or is he a lame duck who looks and sounds like he rather be plucking his eyebrows...you know the kind...sort of like shaking a dead mans hand. If a priest shows he is in love with God, his spirit, his heart, his disposition in the love of Christ...that's what sets my wheels a spinning. I know that Mass rightly deserves holy reverence...but it should also be imbued with a degree of joy and enthusiasm....and short and to the point homilys. We are the family of God and I believe God wants us to "want" to be at Mass. Just like I want my children to share a meal with me...and actually want to be their instead of being "required to be there".