The woman at the well

Discussion in 'Scriptural Thoughts' started by garabandal, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    A Liberal Catholic met the woman at the well and engaged in a bit of chat and thought you are a good person. Ok you have had several husbands but you have met the right man, you are in love so that is great what harm is there in that. Sure God is Love and does not judge.


    The Conservative Catholic met the woman at the well and walked straight passed her. He thought - sure there is no point in talking to her, she is in a state of mortal sin. She does not meet the required standard as she has had several husbands. If she really loved God she would not sin so no point in talking to her.

    Jesus in his teaching was sometimes liberal, sometimes moderate and sometimes conservative.

    We must imitate Jesus.

    The teachings of the Pope or the Councils are sometimes liberal, sometimes moderate, sometimes conservative.

    You cannot be both a Liberal and a Catholic. You must always choose Catholicism over Liberalism or you are not a true follower of Christ.

    You cannot be both a Conservative and a Catholic. You must always choose Catholicism over Conservatism or you are not a true follower of Christ.
     
  2. Torrentum

    Torrentum Guest

    Excellent garabandal.
     
  3. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    That image at the well came to me in prayer this morning.

    I use the terms Conservative and Liberal in the political sense. There are 'catholics' who are only interested in a liberal agenda likewise conservatives interested only on a conservative agenda. The church's teachings are subservient to their agendas. They do not see the Pope or the Church as their teacher.

    For example in EG the Pope criticised the excesses of capitalism and then we see the division.

    Those with a conservative agenda accuse the Pope of having marxist leanings. Those with a liberal agenda use this to support their position that there must be redistribution of wealth.

    Because they impose their pre conceieved beliefs upon the church's teachings they are virtually unteachable. They filter what the Pope says through the bias of their own beliefs.

    So the Pope is not their teacher because they are incapable of listening and learning. Here I am talking about those who have a liberal or conservative agenda. They both have something in common - they do not see the Church as their teacher. They do not hear the voice of Christ through the Church.
     
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  4. picadillo

    picadillo Guest

    You are 100% correct. We have been divided and conquered. It's called communism and guess who the archotect is?
     
  5. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Below is an example of 'catholics' interested in only promoting a liberal agenda. They impose their liberal sub culture upon the teachings of the Church. Their agenda is to create a church in their own liberal image and likeness. They pay homage first to their own liberal sub culture. They are unteachable because they do not want to understand the Catholic faith as revealed in the teachings of the Church. Sad to report that this is an Irish organisation made up of priests and lay associates.

    http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie
     
  6. Fatima

    Fatima Guest

    This is why I will stay flexible with Pope Francis on everything but, change in Church doctrine. He has not changed doctrine, nor do I believe that he would ever try. Church doctrine (teachings on faith and morals) can never change.
     
  7. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Despite all the hype from various source Pope Francis is orthodox in his beliefs.

    I believe that he is a holy man and will one day be canonized.
     
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  8. Thomas

    Thomas Angels

    Garabandal, I agree with you and this is a great observation that you have shared with us! Yes, I believe you are correct. The conservative/liberal memes are based on secular politics and don't really translate to the Church well. Also, both sides are more interested in forming the Church to their views rather than sub serviate their political biases to the teachings of the Church. I also agree with Pope Francis about capitalism and let me provide a few thoughts to help you all understand why. I'm an American, so my thoughts on this are colored by that fact:

    1. On a macro level, the capitalism of today is not our grandparents capitalism (or even our parents). I contend that today we are experiencing a perverted form of it ... it is more of a crony capitalism than ever before. It is a capitalism that exploits others and fosters the rich more than ever. The entire US banking system with the Fed at its helm has become nothing more than a giant hedge fund that pushes risk onto the taxpayer and sucks up the profits. Bankers are in league with politicians and the entire system has been perverted. I could go on and on about this, but if you are really interested in learning more, I recommend this book by David Stockman:
    The Great Deformation: The Corruption of Capitalism in America

    2. Capitalism today is all about getting rich and little mind is paid to how it can be used to help others or make their lives better. It is all about "me, mine, myself" and what is owned. I think many people today are "scrooges" and probably don't even know it or really even think about it. Oh, yes, lip service is paid to "helping the poor" but really many people (I believe) could care less. Entire organizations such as the United Way exist to channel the funds of others to the needy. I prefer to give to my local parishes and to specific organizations that I am confident about.

    3. The American consumer culture has exploded over the last 20 years and it pushed itself onto the rest of the world. It all about "consumption" with the marketers piling onto it to push that message. So much of what is produced today seems like so much junk. If something breaks, don't bother to fix it, just buy a new one.

    The pope is right to warn us and the world about this. Hearts are very hard right now and I don't see that much compassion. Selfishness rules.
     
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  9. FatimaPilgrim

    FatimaPilgrim Powers

    I could not disagree more. There is one true beta test about whether a Catholic can be liberal or conservative. And that is the murder of millions of unborn children, allowed to occur legally!! there are not conservative Catholics who are for this. I don't know of a single liberal Catholic who is against abortion. You cannot be a liberal and be a true Catholic, as then you have to choose to vote for the Barack Obamas, Joe Bidens, and Nancy Pelosis of the world (and Kathleen Sebelius?).

    As for "social justice"? It has been proven many times over that conservatives give of their time, talent, and money moreso than liberals. Liberals complain and want the govt. to "tax the rich" and give to the poor. Jesus did not tell us to give to Caesar what is Caesars so Caesar could give it to the poor. I have worked to help my brothers and sisters in need for many years through the St. Vincent de Paul Society. Almost all of our members are conservatives. We walk the walk.

    Regarding Pope Francis' attack on capitalism, it is misguided, although I believe his intent is right. Trickle down works. Socialism does not work. By the way, the Catholic Church wouldn't be funded if it were not for trickle down. I know who the big givers are at our parish and diocese. By and large they are conservatives, wealthy ones, but conservation. The collection baskets would be empty if it were not for trickle down (if parishioners did not have to give).

    I own a company. I love my Faith. I love my brothers and sisters. I just hired a woman who I visited in her home through St. Vincent de Paul, she asked for help with rent. God, through me and our parishioners, helped her with that rent. He also helped her by teaching her how to fish and she is being trained as I write this so she can survive and thrive and user her charisms to have her own dignity and get off of food stamps and welfare and provide for herself. She came to our company Christmas Party Saturday night, she is as happy as can be, much more fulfilled than sitting at home waiting for liberals to vote in more politicians to enact more welfare for her to sit at home.

    It is the biggest lie in our current world, perpetuated by the liberal media agenda to demonize conservatives, that conservatives are Grinches who just want to get rich and not take care of anyone. The exact opposite is true. Conservatives believe in life, from womb to our eventual end. And conservatives are more generous givers of their time, talent, and money.

    Rant off.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Angels

    Well, FatimaPilgrim, you have misunderstood my comments. I'm sorry to say there are "conservative" Catholics who are for abortion and if they are not openly for it, they are ambivalent towards it. Again, the application the political terms' liberal' and 'conservative' and applying them to Catholics is problemmatic. I don't really see it this way.

    Instead I believe someone is either Catholic or they are not. However in a political sense, this is fine to do. One can say "I am conservative politically, but I am also socially liberal" and it is perfectly fine and other people will understand that. I know many people who describe their political beliefs this way. The trouble is that people are now accustomed to describing their religious beliefs this way too. The term, I believe, is "cafeteria Catholic" where someone selects the aspects of the Church and Faith that they like and discard those that they do not.

    No argument about the media's demonization of conservatives and capitalism! I agree with you! Yet capitalism has been bastardized and is much different than it was even 15 years ago. It has been infiltrated, changed, corrupted. The pope understands this and is attempting to reach out to people to get them to think about it. The very fact that we are discussing it on this board is a victory in a sense.
     
  11. Fatima

    Fatima Guest

    I do not believe that capitalism is wrong. Total capitalism is. Total capitalism uses people, exploits workers, and its end is greed. Most in the free market are not like this. Most are fair to employees and support their communities. Most provide a very good living for the worker. Big corporations however do not.

    Socialism is evil. Forced redistribution of wealth is sinful as well. Giving extravagant taxes to a corrupt government who redistributes it to its liberal buddies and organizations that supports is liberal causes (abortion, atheism, contraception, secular schools without the mention of God etc..) is worse than total capitalism. It is essentially communism. Look what progressive ways have done to Europe for decades, and has been doing to America as well. It has made us all slaves to the corrupt government that we live in. Once they control you they start taking away the few freedoms you have left till that is gone as well.

    Bottom line, a country without God is a country doomed to sinful man. That seems to be where every country in the world is at now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2013
  12. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Catholicism does not equate to Conservatism nor does Conservatism equate to Catholicism.

    As Catholics we are to be shaped by the values of the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus Christ. We live with, in and through Christ for He alone is our salvation. He is Christ the King, we belong only to Him and His Kingdom and no worldly kingdom or no political kingdom. Viva Cristo Rey!

    We are to be conformed to the mind of Christ, and like St Paul we dare to pray, 'for me to live is Christ to die is gain'. Christ is our way, our truth and our life.
     
  13. FatimaPilgrim

    FatimaPilgrim Powers

    garabandal, no Catholicism does not equate to Conservatism, nor visa versa. However, my point is that you cannot be a liberal and be a practicing Catholic. Liberals are all cafeteria "catholics" as there is one and only one litmus test, and that is life. Liberals support abortion and vote for politicians who continue to vote to expand the right to murder.

    Conservatives and liberals can disagree on social justice, on how to best care for the poor. I believe that the best way is to teach the poor to fish, not allow the govt. to tax us all to death and hand the poor the fish. Liberals believe it's better for the govt. safety net to be there for the poor in all cases. That is a reasonable disagreement and those on either side can still rightly calls themselves Catholic and face the Lord on the day of reckoning and be welcomed, on that issue alone, as both sides have merit.

    My point is that liberals believe in abortion. You cannot be Catholic and believe that abortion should be legal. Thomas, I do not know of a single conservative in public life or amongst my friends who believes that abortion should be allowed. You may be thinking of republicans but not all republicans are conservative. No, abortion is the litmus test. Liberals vote for politicians who support the murder of unborn children. That is the test and on that issue can you tell me of any liberal who supported abortion can face our Lord and be welcomed into heaven upon their death? Liberals cannot truly be Catholic upon that one true litmus test. It's a mortal sin, a literal commandment.
     
  14. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    I accept your criticisms of the ultra Liberals.

    In effect what I am trying to say is our self identity must be entirely Catholic and Christian.

    Pope Francis is Catholic to his bones. He is apolitical as he puts the gospel first. Therefore the Pope stands outside of the Liberal or Conservative sub culture. He is a living witness to the Word of God and we must imitate him.

    I believe that we have all been influenced too much by worldly viewpoints that we either have a Liberal mindset or a Conservative mindset etc. There therefore exists a spiritual worldliness amongst many Christians. Rather we must have a Catholic and Christian mindset our minds must be conformed by gospel values and by Christ himself.

    Our blood needs to be Christian blood not Marxist blood or Conservative blood or Liberal blood.

    Unfortunately, we see some believers who choose Conservatism over their Catholicism. Some even labelled the Pope a Marxist. Some ultra conservative Catholics have become so obsessed by exterior form and ritual that they have become slaves to the rules. They put exterior ritual above love of neighbour. Some even reject the authority of the Pope and Church to make any changes to liturgical form. They have staight jacketed themselves by seeing religion as a set of rules to conform too. And they judge others by their conformity to these rules.

    And when the Pope brings out an encyclical like Evangelii Gaudium they do not read it to learn but to judge and criticise. In this encyclical the Pope criticised both extreme Liberals and extreme Conservatives because they are hewn from the same tree.

    In Jesus time there existed ultra Liberals - the Sadduccees and the ultra Conservatives - the Pharisees. Jesus was critical of both extremes. Jesus teachings were sometimes liberal, sometimes moderate and sometimes conservative. Likewise the teachings of Pope Francis.

    This Pope is a sign of contradiction to the modern world. He is truely prophetic and I would follow him into the lions den. He has truely embraced Christ. He is one remarkable man.
     
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  15. FatimaPilgrim

    FatimaPilgrim Powers

    :This Pope is a sign of contradiction to the modern world." Amen and Thank God for that! Peace, garabandal!
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Angels

    Thanks Garabandal, you said it better than me.
     
  17. SteveD

    SteveD Guest

    Jason is more of a 'Man at the Well' and needs help in several ways. At this Christmas season, perhaps we could help his helper (a died in the wool 'conservative', like me - I'm afraid) to pay for some sleeping bags and perhaps a few other needs and Christmas treats and thus also perhaps draw him a little closer to the Lord. Please see link for the story.

    http://thatthebonesyouhavecrushedmaythrill.blogspot.co.uk/

    The blog writer can be contacted at englandsgardens@googlemail.com if you wish to help his little band of sinners and misfits.
     

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