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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    Exactly. Very well put. Who am I to judge? A nobody. I agree wholeheartedly with you that only God can judge whether intrinsically evil acts such as homosexual sex, or contraception have been committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent making the culprit guilty of mortal sin. Of course God sees the heart and discerns with precision the circumstances that led the act being committed. At last Picadillo you are agreeing with Pope Francis!
    Ave Maria!
  2. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    So St John Paul settled the matter even though during the reign of Pope Paul VI another discipline was in force. Based on your logic,Blessed Paul VI had already settled the matter. Contradiction? Yes of course, unless the truth is we are talking about the discipline and administration of the Sacrament which falls under the power of every pope. Was St. Pius X contradicting Leo XIII when he lowered the age of reception to 7, was Paul VI contradicting Pius XII when the massive long pre Communion fast was lowered to one hour. Was St. Pius V contradicting his precesessor when he renewed the liturgy of the Mass in the 16th century? do you see a thread developing that popes do as Jesus gave them authority to do. Not one pope has ever or will ever say mortal sinners can receive Holy Communion. That is a simple fact and truth. Pope Francis is no different.
  3. josephite

    josephite Powers

    When we consider that our poor current culture has become pagan and only God can judge whether intrinsically evil acts such as homosexual sex, or contraception have been committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent making the culprit guilty of mortal sin or not.

    Maybe we are forgetting something!


    When the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah practiced homosexual acts and homosexual marriages, these poor pagans apparently didn't realise or know they were committing grave sins! and when Noah warned the people of his day that they were sinning, I'm sure these poor pagans didn't realise that their adultery and homosexual acts were really that grave/bad a sin!

    However God pronounced a judgement on these people for these abominable acts!

    So whether or not the culprits were guilty of mortal sin or not, God intervened and destroyed these sins by destroying the people who committed them!.

    So what are we really saying, when we say................. only God can judge whether intrinsically evil acts such as homosexual sex, or contraception have been committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent making the culprit guilty of mortal sin or not.

    Are we the Church, by dismissing these abominable sins, on the pretext of we the church can't judge; condoning an offensive slap to Gods face and risking the eternal salvation of the souls of our brothers and sisters?
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
    Light likes this.
  4. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    Josephite, who is dismissing the gravity of these sins? Certainly not the Church. Remember Pope Francis while in Argentina back in 2010 described the quest for gay marriage as the work of the devil. That is not someone who believes its really ok to do these things. You are quite right about Sodom and Gomorahh, but what we need to remember is nobody knows if those who died were damned or not. That is the point. Ask yourself why the divine mercy devotion was given in this era by Jesus himself? St John XXIII said we prefer the medicine of mercy rather than condemnation. The point so many here seem to be missing is that the Church has to adapt the way it presents its teaching (not change but make relevant) to this pagan culture which is even within the Church. Waggaging a finger does not work. People need to understand the treasure of being a Christian is a deep love of Jesus and a personal relationship with him. The complexities of marriage and divorce in this day and age are a million miles from those in the past. Whether we like it or not, people are influenced by the pagan culture and the pull away from the truth clounds consciences. Crewdog was right yesterday. Life is a total mess for many people and priests who get their hands dirty understand this. They are not all mortal sinners! We are in a post Christian world-post Christian, which means the vast majority of westerners have said "we had Christianity and didnt like it. Thanks but no thanks" This is why people in soviet bloc countries after the iron curtain came down said "we knew our enemy" westerners do not". Westerners have had Christianity gradually sucked out of them in a slow asphyxiation which has left them vulnerable. Pope Francis understands very well as did Pope Benedict XVI that this means culpability for certain sins is not what the Church would have said 100 yeras ago. If you believe in Medjugorje, remember Mary told the visionaries most people go to Purgatory. Why not Hell if sin is so much more rampant that 100 years ago? Because people are ignorant to a certain extent.
    We cannot use half truths to condemn people or condemn Pope Francis. The historical proofs are there as I showed yesterday. I emphasize again nobody is saying any mortal sinner can receive Jesus.
  5. Clare A

    Clare A Archangels

    All your examples are connected with practice, not faith and morals. One hopes that the merciful God will judge people by the limits of their knowledge and understanding, but we can't know for certain. Scripture is absolutely clear on this: "Make no mistake about it, those who lead sexually immoral lives... or who are adulterers, perverts, sodomites.... will not inherit the kingdom of heaven" (1 Cor 6:9)
    Light likes this.
  6. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    Yes we can know for certain. Its in the Catechism. What will confessors say to serial pornography users?
  7. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Padraig said, "When our eyes and ears are opened to God they also become opened to evil. "
    YES. From your account of your experiences I can see that you have been on a journey, very deep and very close to the Lord. "Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of my enemies."
    I concur. I can feel the evil emanating from my neighbors and I know what they do, almost to a T. I also at times experience people running away from me as though I have the plague:D
    I am glad you posted the Yeats poem. I first read that in college about 1969. It made very little sense to me then, but it is clear now. The gyre is widening as we speak.
    little me likes this.
  8. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Good, then since you agree that mortal sinners cannot receive Communion, then you must also agree that those who are divorced and remarried and who refuse to live as brother and sister knowing full well that they must live as brother and sister, cannot receive Holy Communion, since they are living in a state of mortal sin.
    little me likes this.
  9. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    I believe we are living the vision of St John Bosco's "two columns of salvation" (notice the third column of the pope is not included). Hold tight to the Eucharist and the Blessed Mother. The masons are celebrating the destuction of catholicism and the pope has fallen.

    "All are heavily armed with cannons, incendiary bombs, and firearms of all sorts – even books – and are heading toward one stately ship, mightier than them all. As they try to close in, they try to ram it, set it afire, and cripple it as much as possible."
    Amoris Laetitia

    However, tying in with CJ, I believe some incident will cause this pope to convert .

    "“Meanwhile, enemy cannons blow up, firearms and beaks fall to pieces, ships crack up and sink to the bottom. In blind fury the enemy takes to hand-to-hand combat, cursing and blaspheming. Suddenly the Pope falls, seriously wounded. He is instantly helped up but, struck down a second time, dies. A shout of victory rises from the enemy and wild rejoicing sweeps their ships. But no sooner is the Pope dead than another takes his place"
    josephite likes this.
  10. Light

    Light Principalities

    That statement is true; indeed Christianity is being sucked out faster every day. By one's actions or lack thereof, one accelerates the sucking out of our Christian heritage. Failure to try to stem this tide, especially by those who are morally mandated and required to do so, is the biggest cause of the sucking problem. Telling Argentinian clerics "there is no other interpretation" goes beyond mere 'discipline' it promotes a change to established doctrine (irrespective of how the document is dressed up with commentary that allegedly support it); failure to sanction Bishop Elbs of Austria for his comments...etc all serve to promote the essential truth of the statement you made.

    We can't know God's judgement on any soul but we do know His commandments are written in our souls, so we will never be able to hide behind the false mask of "if only i knew". Remember "there is no forgiveness without repentance".

    Are we gathering or scattering?

    God Bless
    josephite likes this.
  11. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Your duplicity and sneakiness on this issue is disturbing. Now I am convinced that you are Smudger, as your responses mirror his almost exactly.

    While there are circumstances that can diminish culpability, the Catechism also makes it clear that we have a duty to properly form our consciences and amend our lifestyles once the truth is known. The Catechism does not give a free pass to continue living in an objective state of mortal sin under the excuse that our passions prevent us from reforming. Sacramental Confession provides every grace we need to break the bonds of sin, passion, habit and any other "external pressure."
  12. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Serial Pornography users are living in an objective state of mortal sin. Each time they lust after a man or woman they are commiting adultery. Those who masturbate are committing the sin of Sodomy with themselves. St. Peter Damian makes it clear that Sodomy is the sin God hates the most and includes much more than homosexual intercourse - it also includes the sin of Onan. The practice of habitual Pornography and Masturbation is an activity that Aleister Crowley termed "sex magik" and opens up a pathway to demonic possession.

    Your list of permissions for those living in mortal sin is getting longer and longer, Mallett. First you gave permission to those disobeying Our Lord's words in Sacred Scripture on Divorce and Remarriage. Then you mentioned Pornography. What's next? Pedophilia?
  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Mallett is using a revolving IP address, I've kicked his ass off the forum.:)

    This is getting to be fun.:D

    What next?
  14. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    The sins of the flesh are contrary to the spirit of God. Such sins lead to great darkness of soul and intellect.

    The remedy is our Lady. Purity is one of the greatest virtues but at this time in history one that is attacked the most.

    Without purity one cannot see God or hear God (who is holy and pure) unless there is repentance and a contrite spirit.

    For those who struggle in this area turn to our Lady for help through praying the daily rosary. She is the vessel all pure who can lead us to freedom from the sins of the flesh. And of course the sacrament of reconciliation where God gives us forgiveness and spiritual strength to overcome.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
    Jonah, little me, sterph and 3 others like this.
  15. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Pardon my ignorance, but what's a revolving IP address?
  16. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    It hides your location. A static IP address tells a site owner exactly where a user is. A rotating IP address is specifically used to hide your location. Therefore it's used by trolls and people who have been banned by IP address to sneak back on a forum. Naughty at best.
    josephite, HeavenlyHosts and Dolours like this.
  17. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

  18. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Hope you will enjoy Bishop Fulton Sheen talk on topic.

    little me likes this.
  19. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I will watch it now , Julia , Fulton always cheers me up.

    A Great Prophet for our times; never puts a foot wrong.:)

    My hero. :)
  20. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    Cardinal Müller’s TV Interview Causes Bewilderment
    Posted by Edward Pentin on Monday Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:38 PM
    Vatican’s doctrinal chief criticizes making ‘dubia’ public but some critics say he is missing the point as it emerges that none of the CDF’s corrections of ‘Amoris Laetitia’ was accepted.

    Cardinal Gerhard Müller, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said in a live television interview on Sunday that a “fraternal correction” of Pope Francis regarding his apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love) is “not possible at this time” because the document poses “no danger to the faith.”

    But the cardinal’s comments, made yesterday to Vatican correspondent Fabio Marchese Ragona on the Italian channel Tgcom24, contrast with revelations, affirmed by at least two senior Vatican officials to the Register last week, that the CDF lodged a large number of corrections of Amoris Laetitia before its publication last April, and “not one of the corrections was accepted.”

    His remarks also follow widely divergent interpretations of the document, with some bishops’ conferences such as Germany’s saying it allows Holy Communion for some remarried divorcees living in what the Church has always taught is an objective state of adultery, and others such as Poland’s emphatically saying it doesn’t. Individual bishops around the world have similarly been at odds over the issue.

    Cardinal Müller did not refer to concerns over these differing interpretations in his Jan. 8 interview, but said instead that “at the moment, a correction of the Pope isn’t possible because there isn’t a danger to the faith.” He was referring to the dubia of four cardinals who asked the Pope Sept. 19 to clarify the teaching contained in Amoris Laetitia given these widely varying interpretations on crucial moral and sacramental matters.

    The four cardinals — Carlo Caffarra, Walter Brandmüller, Raymond Burke and Joachim Meisner — sent the dubia (questions asking simply if 5 passages in the document are consistent with Church teaching) to the Pope “out of deep pastoral concern” in order to clear up “grave disorientation and great confusion” due to these different readings of the document’s teaching. The cardinals stressed they chose to highlight those points in “charity and justice,” for the sake of Church unity.

    So far the Holy Father has not formally responded to the questions and has made it known to Cardinal Müller that he is not to respond to them on his behalf. Francis has not publicly given reasons for not doing so, but has implied that the four cardinals and others “persist in seeing only white or black, when rather one ought to discern in the flow of life”.

    The cardinals decided to make the dubia public as they took the Pope’s decision not to respond as “an invitation to continue the reflection and the discussion, calmly and with respect.” In Nov. 15 comments to the Register, Cardinal Burke said if the Pope continues not to respond then “it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.” Cardinal Brandmüller later told La Stampa the correction would first take place in camera caritatis (in private).

    Surprised dubia made public

    Cardinal Müller said Sunday that the cardinals had “every right to write a letter to the Pope”, but added he was “surprised this has become public, almost forcing the Pope to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

    “I don’t like this,” he said. “Also a possible fraternal correction of the Pope seems to me very distant; it’s not possible at this time because it is not a danger to the faith as St. Thomas [Aquinas] said.”

    He said he felt it was “a loss to the Church to discuss these things publicly”, adding that Amoris Laetitia is “very clear in its doctrine and we can interpret the whole doctrine of Jesus on marriage, the whole doctrine of the Church in 2000 years of history."

    Pope Francis, the cardinal concluded, “asks to discern the situation of these people who live in irregular unions, that are not according to the Church's teaching on marriage, and to help these people find a way for a new integration into the Church according to the conditions of the sacraments, the Christian message about marriage.” He said he did not “see any opposition: on the one hand we have the clear teaching on marriage, on the other the obligation of the Church to be concerned about these people in difficulty.”

    But the cardinal’s comments have been met with bewilderment in Rome, with some arguing that the cardinal has missed the point: the question, they say, is not whether Amoris Laetitia can be read in continuity with tradition but whether it is ambiguous enough that it can be read in a heterodox way.

    His remarks also come after it has emerged the CDF had clear misgivings about the document before it was published — concerns which were never heeded. One informed official recently told the Register that a CDF committee that reviewed a draft of Amoris Laetitia raised “similar” dubia to those of the four cardinals. Those dubia formed part of the CDF’s 20 pages of corrections, first reported by Jean-Marie Genois in Le Figaro on April 7, the eve of the publication of the document.

    Another senior official went further, revealing to the Register last week that Cardinal Müller had told him personally that the CDF “had submitted many, many corrections, and not one of the corrections was accepted”. He added that what the cardinal states in the interview “is exactly the contradictory of everything which he has said to me on the matter until now” and he had the “impression of someone who was not speaking for himself but repeating what someone else had told him to say.”

    josephite likes this.

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