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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    No, what Amoris Laetitia has done is injected new life into the proposal (killed off by Pope John Paul) to raise to the level of magisterial teaching all sorts of irregular sexual unions including common law marriage and gay marriage. This supposed merciful approach to the divorced and remarried is merely a stalking horse for gay marriage.

    Actually, Janet didn't add anything to the conversation. She misrepresented herself as someone who had benefited from what was proposed under Amoris Laetitia and referenced out of context something said by Pope Benedict concerning the question of people without faith going through a Sacramental marriage and later returning to the faith when they are in a second union, giving the false impression that Pope Benedict was proposing the internal forum as a solution.
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  2. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    I merely pointed out that before even John Paul II's pontificate, the CDF was allowing this practise. Ratzinger then changed it and now its changed again-proving once again that the popes have every right to alter the discipline of the sacremants-when they can be received and by whom (mortal sinners excluded).
    Dolours, its really up to you and everyone else here now to face facts and stop relying on "he didnt really mean that" or "he was probably forced to say that". I have shown conclusively how this matter was being done decades ago. Notice how the secretary of the CDF referred to it as "traditional moral theology"-which is what has been stated to those against Pope Francis all along on this thread. We have been treated like dirt basically and yet we have shown the truth of how the Church operates in authentic moral and pastoral theology. Its not silly sound bites but hard facts.
  3. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    Come on Dolours accept the argument is basically lost. Two prefects of the CDF 40 years apart both agree and aprove of the practise, Cardinal Schonborn, editor of the Catechsim also agrees as does the boss who answers only to God. Nobody is saying anyone in these relatonships are free to carry on happy with their situation, but me and you are sinners. We have enough on our own plates to be judging people like Janet.
    Peace be with you
  4. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Pope John Paul spelled out clearly what was meant by trying to live according to the demands of Christian moral principles when he said that remarried divorcees must make a commitment to live in continence if they cannot separate. He also dealt with the second condition in Cardinal Seper's letter. That's clarity. If only Pope Francis would take a leaf out of his book we wouldn't have Bishops contradicting Bishops. In fact, Pope Francis has already caused the faithful to misunderstand Church teaching on adultery and sodomy with his off the cuff remarks to journalists. Time for him to remember that he's supposed to be Catholic and re-affirm Church teaching on absolution being conditional on a firm purpose of amendment.
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  5. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    The argument is not lost because what you and Cardinal Schonborn are touting and what Pope Francis is permitting are contrary to the law of God - the very words of Jesus Christ. It won't go away. Sure, Pope Francis can bury it for a while, and whoever he and the remnant of the St. Galen Mafia designate as his successor can extend it to permit priests perform some kind of blessing of homosexual unions, leading to the "doctrinal development" of gay marriage. But God will have the last word. There will be more people in the pews for a while, the German Church tax will hold up for a while, but the faith will all but die out after they all get their way and finally decide that they don't need God or Churches. Then we'll be left with a remnant of "traditionalists" who managed to keep the faith alive despite our hypocritical hierarchy.
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  6. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    I thought the church has always taught that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil.
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  7. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    Yes, Cardinal Schonborn did help write the catechism of the catholic church, but he had to rewrite the section on homsexuality 4 or 5 times. One wonders why.
  8. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    Who are you to judge Mallett? We all only answer to God.
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  9. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Yeah, well I feel like I know you wrt a past member.
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  10. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Catholics who divorce and "remarry" and then refuse to live as brother and sister are living in an objective state of mortal sin. Unless they are invincibly ignorant of their sad situation, they commit the second mortal sin of sacrilege by receiving Our Lord in this unworthy state. Receiving Our Lord in a state of mortal sin is not only anothe mortal sin but it can also damage ones physcial health. Christ's words in Sacred Scripture on this matter cannot change and will never change.

    Also, are you Smudger? You sort of dropped in magically about the same time he was banned. And you basically started exactly on the thread where he left off. Coinkydink?
  11. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    They are intrinsically evil and the homosexual inclination is objectively disordered.
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  12. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Glad you are interested.
    Here you go....http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/450f89c0097d9c92c8d696664d1d12b4-661.html
    Light likes this.
  13. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Saint John Paul II settled this matter once and for all. Popes cannot contradict Popes on settled matters of Faith and Morals.
  14. padraig

    padraig New Member

    It serves me right , Terry believing the film makers. :) But I think a large part of overcoming those who fell into heresy was in engaging in debate with them. Not in falling silent.

    I think what is going on in the Vatican at the moment is for us who are outside it rather like gazing into a deep dark lake, we can now and again see ripples from which we guess there are fish moving about below the surface but as outsiders we cannot really know. As Winston Churchill once said about Russia,

    "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

    What is the key to understanding what is happening in the Vatican at the moment? I was struck watching Raymond Arroyo in a EWTN programme on utube last night. I think it is far more insightful to listen , not to what people are saying , rather than what they are not saying. ...and what he and other people were telling em is that they are full of a a gathering huge anger about things, a real rage and shock in fact:

    I could see this is Raymond's eyes tell it by his body language. Also looking at the others I could see a sense of desperation a real fear. Look at them, don;t listen so much to what they are saying look at their eyes , their facial expressions , their body language, these people are very afraid, very shocked and very angry:

    picadillo likes this.
  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I'll tell you a story about my own conversion Terry and how eventually I got my eyes opened, at least a little and why my eyes are still opened. At least a little.

    When I saw Our Lady in prison all I really wanted to do was pray and pray the rosary and pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Attend mass every day and so on... I mean that IS ALL I WANTED TO DO.:D:D

    I prayed the rosary constantly . I think anybody from the outside looking in would have taken me for some kind of religious nut. In fact one of my brothers said I was some kind of religious fanatic, which in a way I guess I was.

    When I entered the monastery this kind of shut awayness was much much deeper, constant, constant prayer by day and night, a huge part of my day in front of the Blessed Sacrament. To such an extent I think some of the monks considered me a nut as well, others considered me a saint. But all of this went way over my head, I was in another world really.

    When I entered the Dark Night of the Soul (which I was in , I guess for about 23 or 24 years) things changed. I prayed all the time more than ever. But in a different way. Life itself became my rosary, every breath a prayer and still is. But, I don;t know how el;se to put is my eyes opened again. I kind of woke up as though from mystical deep sleep and began to look around me once again.

    One of the things I began to notice in Church was the preaching and behaviour of the priests. Several things here. First of all I began to notice that many priests were teaching pure heresy. It is as simple as that. Still do in fact worse than ever. In fact from listening to them I began to understand that many of them were no more Catholics than my dogs are. A terrible thing to say but the truth.

    Another thing I began to observe in many priests is that they were using the liturgy as a public platform to promote themselves. In other words the priests were often getting between myself and the mass. They were..for want of a better word publically preening themselves.

    Yet another thing I observed from observing many priests and religious I met could not get away from me fast enough. At first I thought that this was my imagination. But no, many of them tend to act like cats on a hot tin roof anf want to absent themselves form my company and run for cover as quick as they can. Not I believe because of anything I say but because of who I am.

    I guess what I am trying to say Terry is that my eyes are wide , wide open nowadays. I could not close them even if I wanted. To paraphrase Shakespeare in 'Hamlet,''

    'There is something rotten in the State of Denmark'...

    Well there is something truly evil and hideous in the Vatican State. Something Satanic on an epic scale. I felt this last Christmas when I was there and could not wait to get out of the place quick enough. One night while I was there I felt several groups conducting Satanic Rites in the distance, very, very powerful rites.

    In other words when our eyes and ears are open to God they also become opened to evil. I have do doubt there is a great, a huge a monstrous force of evil at work in the Vatican.

    I love dogs, but a dog that does not bark is not a lot of use. So I am barking Terry and will continue to bark. All this reminds me of the words of Yeats:

    The Second Coming
    Related Poem Content Details
    By William Butler Yeats

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

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  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

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  17. padraig

    padraig New Member

  18. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Looks like Cardinal Muller got his orders to put up a defence or else. I suppose that being told to remove three of his priests is the Vatican's equivalent of finding a horse's head in your garden. I feel sorry for Cardinal Muller. He knows that Cardinal (you can be fully Catholic and a Freemason) Schonborn must be planning how to rearrange the office furniture as soon as he's given the elbow. Better a half-hearted defence of the Faith than to see his successor flush it down the toilet.

    Mac likes this.
  19. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    Sorry Richard but actually invincible ignorance is not the entire issue as the Catechism makes clear in the section on mortal sin:"the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders" (no 1860). Pope Francis is therefore in line with authentic moral theology because he makes the clear distinction between actual mortal sin and those in a less serious state - because two of the other three conditions are not present. This is exactly the teaching of St Thomas Aquinas. You need to understand that Pope Francis is NOT talking about people in mortal sin. If he is, point it out where because I guarantee you wont find one single passage where is says you can. That is precisely why even Cardinal Burke said Pope Francis is not a heretic.
  20. Mallett

    Mallett Guest

    So what you are really saying is that Cardinal Muller is so keen to keep his job that he is prepared to lie (in a massive way considering he is the top man for doctrinal questions) and go against his conscience in stating there is no danger to the faith with AL. Name me one prelate in the Church who has said Pope Francis is a heretic, because if he isnt, then there is no problem obviously with his teaching.

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