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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. AED

    AED Powers

    Yes Brian. It has been a satanic "salting" of our seminaries with these deviants since the 30's. Once they reach prominence they bring in others. And up the ladder it goes. Horror. All of the West for sure and perhaps in Africa snd Asia as well. I knew young men in the 70's who were rejected by seminaries for not being "pastoral" enough--code for too heterosexual. The chickens come home to roost. There certainly will be a terrible cleansing. But now the Pope himself is outed as a defender of these predators. may God grant him the grace to realize what he is doing and to repent!!!!
  2. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    It can survive because the world culture and the culture within the Vatican has lost its salt. This is their day. The "day of the Lord" will come and clean out the den of thieves who have robbed the beauty of the Gospel of the Lord and twisted it to deviant ends. A long hard purification will take place before the Era of Peace comes. The "valley of tears" is upon the Church of God.
  3. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    St. Peter Damian hated homosexuality in the Church and in the world
    This was about 1,000 years ago
    It has continued and has become a monstrous blot on the Church and society
    His Feast Day is coming up February 21
    We need his intercession
    Dean, DeGaulle, Denise P and 2 others like this.
  4. AED

    AED Powers

    Excellent posts both, David. Right on all counts.
    DeGaulle, sunburst and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  5. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    St. Peter Damian wrote The Book of Gomorrah
    It is available online with an account of his struggles against homosexuality amongst clerics
    I am not sure I could read this:(
    I do know that his life was penitential
    He fasted on bread and water
    So any penance and reparations we could do would be welcomed by Heaven
    AED likes this.
  6. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    08 February 2018 | by Christa Pongratz-Lippitt , James Roberts , CNS
    Chaput calls on Marx to be clear about gay blessings
    Share this story

    The German bishops' conference has now released an English translation of Cardinal Marx's comments

    Archbishop Charles Chaput of Philadelphia has urged the president of the German bishops' conference to clarify remarks he made last week regarding the pastoral care and blessing of gay couples. During a radio interview on 3 February Cardinal Reinhard Marx urged priests to provide better pastoral care to Catholics who are homosexual, but he said, "general solutions … would not be right", when asked if he could imagine the Catholic Church blessing gay couples. His remarks were interpreted as saying the blessing of gay couples should be left to the discretion of individual priests. The Tablet has translated the interview from the German, and what was said was as follows.

    The interviewer asked: “So you can imagine that there is a way of blessing homosexual couples in the Roman Catholic Church?”

    Cardinal Marx replied: “Yes [I can imagine that]. There are no general solutions. They would not be right in my opinion, as this is a matter for individual pastoral cases. And that also applies to other cases that we cannot regulate, as we have no regulations. But that doesn’t mean that nothing is happening. Surely one really must leave that to the individual, local priest and the accompaniment on the spot. There one can then discuss – in the course of the accompaniment – how one can handle the situation, but I would leave that strictly in the pastoral field.”

    While stressing the importance of this pastoral encouragement by priests Marx said: “How that should be done publicly and liturgically is quite a different matter. Those are things where restraint is called for and which we must think about very carefully.”

    In response to varying reports of Marx’s remarks in the English-speaking world, the German bishops’ conference took the unusual step on 7 February of releasing an English translation of Marx's comments. In the interview, the journalist said many people believe the Church should bless gay unions, ordain women to the diaconate and end obligatory celibacy for priests in the Latin-rite church.

    According to the bishops' conference translation, Cardinal Marx said he did not believe those changes were what the Church needs most today. “Rather, the question to be asked is how the Church can meet the challenges posed by the new circumstances of life today - but also by new insights, of course. For example, in the field of pastoral work, pastoral care.”

    Following the teaching and example of Pope Francis in pastoral care, he said, according to the bishops’ conference, “we have to consider the situation of the individual, his life history, his biography, the disruptions he goes through, the hopes that arise, the relationships he lives in – or she lives in. We have to take this more seriously and have to try harder to accompany people in their circumstances of life.”

    The same is true in ministering to people who are homosexual, he said. In the bishops’ conference translation, he went on: “We must be pastorally close to those who are in need of pastoral care and also want it. And one must also encourage priests and pastoral workers to give people encouragement in concrete situations. I do not really see any problems there. An entirely different question is how this is to be done publicly and liturgically. These are things you have to be careful about, and reflect on them in a good way.”

    While excluding “general solutions” such as a public ritual, Cardinal Marx said, again in the bishops’ conference translation: “that does not mean that nothing happens, but I really have to leave that to the pastor on the ground, accompanying an individual person with pastoral care. There you can discuss things, as is currently being debated, and consider: How can a pastoral worker deal with it? However, I really would emphatically leave that to the pastoral field and the particular, individual case at hand, and not demand any sets of rules again – there are things that cannot be regulated.”

    The translation published on 7 February, in the English-speaking world only, was in response to the widespread interpretation of these remarks as suggesting that how a priest accompanied a homosexual couple pastorally and liturgically must be left to the individual priest.

    The coverage led Archbishop Chaput to write a blog encouraging bishops to be clear about what they intend or don’t intend to suggest on the subject. He wrote: “Any such ‘blessing rite’ would cooperate in a morally forbidden act, no matter how sincere the persons seeking the blessing. Such a rite would undermine the Catholic witness on the nature of marriage and the family. It would confuse and mislead the faithful. And it would wound the unity of our Church, because it could not be ignored or met with silence.”

    A spokesman for the German bishops' conference said the cardinal was unavailable for further interviews.
  7. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Marx 'saying the blessing of gay couples should be left to the discretion of individual priests', is throwing faithful priests under the bus.

    Father Hunwicke:

    "An Eminent Ecclesiastic ...

    ... is reported to have spoken in a very relaxed and civilised way about the blessing of sexually irregular relationships.

    Splendid stuff. This is the way ahead. Before genocides, for example, or murders in general, one should always baptise or absolve (perhaps conditionally) those about to be terminated. Thereby, one would be giving them the supreme good of immediate everlasting life. How could such an admirable End fail to justify the Means? And, before the sexual abuse of the young or vulnerable, one should always sprinkle them with Holy Water.

    Every paedophile should always carry some with him. It is a very important Sacramental.

    All of that was what is called technically 'irony'. I think I was inspired by a particular 'modest' writing of my hero the late Dean Swift. Since he got into trouble because the po-faced took his Proposal seriously, I had better make clear that I am not really offering such advice ... far from it. Such conduct would be abhorrent.

    I would add two points. We all of us, in our respective avocations, have our own professional dirty little tricks. Bishops are no exception. And, according to the accounts, the Ecclesiastic concerned has just played the very nastiest such Dirty Little Trick. He has left the decision about blessing such relationships to the parish clergy. He will now be the Mr Nice who has been generous and 'inclusive'. Poor Fr X who adheres to the teaching of the Catholic Church will now be Mr Nasty, attacked on the grounds that he is so much 'less inclusive' than the Nice Ecclesiastic and Fr Alsoverynice in the next parish.

    It sounds so reasonable, doesn't it; mumble mumble case by case mumble mumble local pastoral decision mumble mumble. In fact, as well as being an abdication of episcopal responsibilities, it is a viciously nasty method of creating problems and then unloading them onto other people whose position you have already fatally undermined. From the Ecclesiastic's own standpoint, what's not to like?

    We experienced that sort of management-style when we were back in the Church of England. The map ahead is already published and it is very clear. The next stage, 'pastorally', is: "My dear boy, I am so very sorry about all this. I wish so much that I could help. But, y'know, this major pastoral breakdown in your parish leaves me with no choice ... I am thinking about your happiness every bit as much as that of your parish ... ".

    And, by stealth, step by step, the corruptions of the Evil One are multiplying and spreading. They grow with generous rapidity from being a tiny seed of the exceptional and the unusual and the 'pastoral' to being the norm and the iron rule. Time, as the Evil One is aware, is so very much more important than Space.

    Secondly: who does the Ecclesiastic think he is to speak, apparently, on behalf of his national episcopate? I think I may be right ... I'm not sure ... in saying that he is Chairman of his Conference, but, all the same, have they discussed the matter and come to a unanimous conclusion? Apostolos suos, I think, laid down that in doctrinal matters, a unanimous vote was necessary. Surely there must be just one orthodox bishop in that country? Otherwise, this is an uncanonical piece of dictatorial arrogance.

    Cardinal Mueller spoke very well about the problem of what, with justifiable sarcasm, he called these 'vice-popes'. He had an extremely sound instinct for what was going on. Perhaps that is why ... er ...

    Next time you meet a Great Ecclesiastic who is probably Chairman of his Conference, make sure you keep your wits about you. Keep a sharp eye open for vis sine lege."
  8. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Thanks, I meant to get around to it.

    I think this is the most wonderful series of videos I have watched on the subject matter. They keep getting better and better,so much to the point.

    A very Great Grace for our terrible times.

    Thank you Jesus and Mary.
    DivineMercy, DeGaulle and AED like this.
  9. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    Pope Francis Gets His ‘Mess’
    February 9, 2018 4:00 AM
    We are all familiar with parody Twitter accounts; someone called Donald J. Trump has a really rather good one going at the moment. When I read the words of a senior Vatican official recently, on the Twitter feed of the Catholic Herald, it seemed just so obvious. A Bishop Marcelo Sánchez Sorando, according to the report, the chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences — it sounds like a job of soul-destroying tedium but is in fact a rather significant position — had described the one country in the world that, in the bishop’s words, was “best implementing the social doctrine of the Church.” That would be the People’s Republic of China.

    China is the country that had a remarkably successful try at enforcing a one-child policy, promoting massive abortion (a figure of more than 300 million has been suggested) — sex-selective, with boys highly favored for birth, girls for elimination — enforced sterilization, and execution of criminals. And, of course, the one-party state persecutes the Church and imprisons human-rights advocates. Bishop Sánchez, who said he had been to China and seen all this good work in person, so it must be true, probably wouldn’t agree with Cardinal Joseph Zen, the bishop emeritus of Hong Kong, who recently protested the imminent decision of the Vatican to recognize the government-sponsored, quisling “Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association.” That move would be at the expense of the members of the “underground” Catholic Church, which has stayed loyal to the Vatican and suffered persecution for decades. Zen said that the Vatican, and by that he means Pope Francis, was “ready to surrender to the Chinese Communist Party” — again, perfectly fine if it excelled at implementing the social doctrine of the Church.

    The China policy, being overseen by Cardinal Pietro Parolin, the Vatican’s secretary of state — Cardinal Zen described him as a “man of little faith” — is just one example of the confusion and chaos battering the Catholic Church today. Parolin has called Pope Francis’s document Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love — no sniggers, please) a “paradigm change” in the life of the Catholic Church. Paradigm shifts imply a rupture. Critics of the The Joy of Love — they include several cardinals and bishops — say that Pope Francis has called into question the indissolubility of marriage. That would certainly be a paradigm shift for the Catholic Church, given the words of Jesus about divorce in the Bible.

    The problem for the proponents of this “shift,” as George Weigel has explained, is that the Church “doesn’t do paradigm shifts”; if it did, it would cease to be the Catholic Church. It would become more like the Anglican Church, no stranger to rupture and new ways of thinking. The new resemblance to Anglicanism is not the old division of High and Low Church in regard to the liturgy, although that is certainly part of the contemporary Catholic experience; you never quite know these days whether the priest will just celebrate the Mass or attempt a late-night comedy routine. The really acute division, which is why it is so serious, is over the interpretation of basic doctrine. In Malta, for example, the rules allowing or limiting Holy Communion for a couple one of whose members was divorced and remarried while the previous spouse was still living would be quite different for the same couple if they were in Portland, Ore. “Something is broken in the Catholic Church today,” says Weigel.

    To the Vatican’s abandonment of Chinese Catholics and of the Church’s ancient teaching on marriage, add Pope Francis’s recent outrageous comments relating to sexual abuse of minors by priests. It was Benedict XVI who first seriously began to tackle the awful problem. To the delight of the secular media, Francis appeared to be pushing an even stronger line. Unfortunately, some cracks began to appear in that narrative early on, with abusers being readmitted if they had friends (such as the pope) in high places; survivor Marie Collins and all other lay members of the Vatican’s commission on the sexual-abuse problem resigned. Now Francis is under fire for apparently shielding a Chilean bishop who had covered for abusive priests and for appearing to be “economical with the truth” about a letter detailing the facts of the scandal in Chile. He said he never received the letter.

    The curious fact about all this confusion and chaos is the disconnection between what is happening at the highest levels of the Church and the lack of awareness of it among the vast majority of ordinary Catholics, including many parish priests. Professional Church-watchers — journalists, theologians, and many of those who spend their time immersed in the affairs of the Church — see the present situation as one of the most serious crises the Church has faced in decades, perhaps centuries. One senior American priest tells me

    that the Church is in its worst crisis since Arius, the third-century heretic who converted whole regions of bishops to his heresy.In the Catholic Church at the moment, those at the top are aware of a mounting crisis — indeed, many of them are fomenting it — but the average Sunday Mass-goer is blissfully oblivious.
    It is rather like the winter of 1979 in Britain, the “winter of discontent,” except in reverse. Then, everyone except those in power was aware of the national crisis: strikes, rubbish in the streets, general malaise. It was only the prime minister, Jim Callaghan, returning to Britain from a conference in the West Indies, who could comment that most people would not “share the view that there is a mounting crisis.” “Crisis? What Crisis?” read in the headline in Rupert Murdoch’s Sun, mocking Callaghan’s cluelessness. In the Catholic Church at the moment, those at the top are aware of a mounting crisis — indeed, many of them are fomenting it — but the average Sunday Mass-goer is blissfully oblivious.

    It is worth asking why that disconnection should be, if it’s true. Two causes seem reasonable explanations: dogma and media coverage. “Dogma is the drama,” Dorothy L. Sayers, the Christian apologist and creator of the Lord Peter Wimsey detective novels once said of Christianity. History relates how it was not unusual, at the time of the Council of Nicaea in a.d. 325, for debate on the two natures of Christ and on their hypostatic union to be common in the taverns and bars of contemporary Greece; the future of Christianity depended on the precise definition of belief. Today it seems that most Catholics regard discussion of dogma as dull or even unnecessary: the equivalent of the mythical question “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”

    The second reason that most Catholics remain unaware of the severity of the crisis is the free pass that mainstream media have given Pope Francis until now, basically because he isn’t Benedict XVI. Francis apparently downgrading the big social issues — abortion, contraception — early in his pontificate. His famous comment that Catholics don’t have to “breed like rabbits” and, of course, his rhetorical question “Who am I to judge?” with regard to gay priests: All that was music to the ears of liberal media. That is now changing because of one issue the media cannot ignore and will punish ruthlessly: the covering up, real or imaginary, of sexual abuse. As media start to cover more effectively the catastrophic failures and sleight of hand of this papacy with regard to the abuse of minors, all the other issues begin to emerge.

    You can hide the rubbish in the streets only for so long. Eventually it overflows, out into the open. When the Church should be speaking with a clear and direct voice, it is instead spreading confusion, misunderstanding, and scandal. Francis famously called for the people to make a “mess” in the Church. To youth in Rio de Janeiro, he said in January 2013, “I want a mess. . . . I want trouble in the dioceses.” It seems, for now, he has got his wish.

    — Benedict Kiely, a Catholic priest, is the founder of Nasarean.org, which helps persecuted Christians in the Middle East.
    SgCatholic, DeGaulle, AED and 3 others like this.
  10. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    Retired cardinal hits back at Vatican over deal with China
    BEIJING — The retired archbishop of Hong Kong has slammed the Holy See’s negotiations with Beijing as a “catastrophe” that would bring suffering to millions of worshippers, as a bitter dispute inside the Roman Catholic Church over its future in China escalates in a dramatic fashion.

    Cardinal Joseph Zen warned in a blog post this week that some Chinese Catholics who follow so-called underground churches are at risk of arrest even while the Catholic Church pushes for a historic breakthrough in relations with China’s ruling Communist Party.

    Zen, a leading critic of the Vatican’s outreach to China, revealed in a statement last month that the Vatican had asked a legitimate “underground” bishop to stand down in favor of an excommunicated one favored by Beijing — a reshuffle that he suggested was orchestrated by church officials without the pope’s full knowledge.

    Zen, 86, doubled down on Monday and denounced church officials for betraying Chinese worshippers in what amounted to a highly unusual attack from a clergyman against the Holy See.

    “Mainland brothers and sisters fear not losing all they have, the prison cell or shedding their blood,” Zen wrote. “Their greatest suffering is being sold out by their ‘loved ones.’”

    In an extraordinary escalation, Zen also criticized Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, the official charged with negotiations with Beijing, as a “man of little faith” who did not understand the “true suffering” of persecuted Chinese Catholics.

    The proposed changing of the bishops was the clearest evidence yet of the Vatican’s effort to reach a deal with China, a country with an estimated 12 million Catholics. Of those, about half worship in “underground” churches that recognize only Rome as their highest authority while the rest belong to state-authorized churches with clergy named by Beijing.

    The Vatican, particularly under Pope Francis, has been keen to reach a deal with the Chinese government and unite the churches. A sticking point in secret negotiations over at least the past year has concerned whether Rome or Beijing has final say over bishop appointments. China’s Foreign Ministry has said the government supports dialogue and advancing ties with the Vatican on the basis of “relevant principles” — a likely reference to Beijing holding final say over appointments.

    Zen said the Vatican had “given in” to the Communist Party by seeking to replace Shantou Bishop Peter Zhuang Jianjian with Bishop Joseph Huang Bingzhang, who is backed by the state. Last month, he disclosed the behind-the-scenes discussions to replace bishops and said he had been so upset that he traveled to Rome to raise objections with Francis.

    “Priests and congregants will have many long nights of suffering over the prospect of obeying and respecting those priests who were illegitimate today but will be legitimized by the Holy See tomorrow, having been approved by the government,” Zen wrote.

    A pro-democracy advocate and longtime critic of the Chinese government, Zen appeared to suggest that China would crack down more on unauthorized congregations after reaching agreements with the Vatican over authorized congregations. He wrote that the government will “strictly enforce regulations on religion” beginning this month and that priests in Shanghai have warned their congregations “not to attend Mass on pain of arrest.”

    An official from the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, a government body supervising state-authorized Catholic congregations, said he could not respond to Zen’s claim that Shanghai priests have warned their followers against attending Mass.

    The Vatican had no immediate comment on Zen’s latest blog post. But it said last week it was “surprising and regrettable” that some members of the church were fostering “confusion and controversy.”

    In an editorial Tuesday, China’s state-run Global Times newspaper said Beijing and the Vatican would establish diplomatic relations “sooner or later” and that a deal would be “tremendously beneficial to Catholics.” Without directly naming Zen, the paper also rebuked “a few radical religious groups who have no right to intervene in bishop appointments.”

    “Pope Francis has a positive image with the Chinese public,” the editorial concluded. “It is expected he will push China-Vatican ties forward and solve related problems with his wisdom.”


    Associated Press writer Nicole Winfield in the Vatican contributed to this report.

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  11. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    Catholics in China are persecuted now, imagine what it will be like after a formal agreement with the communists. It will be much much worse. We all have to remember to pray diligently for these Brothers and Sisters. God Bless Bishop Zen for protecting his flock and trying to warn the Vatican with love and charity.
    SgCatholic, AED, sunburst and 2 others like this.
  12. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Bishop Zhuang’s true Story: faithful to the Pope and “patriotic”
    The 87-year-old pastor of Shantou does not belong to the “underground” Catholic community, and yet he is fully integrated in the “patriotic” bodies controlling the Church. Important details removed from the orchestrated campaign that wanted to present him as a victim of the agreements between the Holy See and Beijing

    Pietro Zhuang Jianjian, 87-year-old bishop of Shantou

    Pubblicato il 08/02/2018

    The Catholic Church in China is a much more multiform and disorienting reality than what they would like us to believe. The story of Peter Zhuang Jianjian, the 87-year-old bishop of Shantou, is a convincing proof to this.

    In recent weeks, the orchestrated media-clerical campaign used Zhuang’s case to halt a possible agreement between the Holy See and the Beijing authorities on the issue of Episcopal appointments in China. Agencies enlisted full-time against the hypothesis of such an agreement, have portrait Zhuang as a member of the so-called “Underground Church”, who became bishop “by order of the Vatican in 2006”, but was pushed away by the same Vatican to make room for an illegitimate but “pleasing” bishop to the Chinese government.

    In this plot masterminded for the benefit of the most influential global media networks, the story of Pietro Zhuang was offered as the definitive proof of the Vatican “compliance” before Beijing’s diktats. Many referred to his “powerless” and “sad” tears when he received the request - presented to him on behalf of the Pope - to become, at 87 years old, emeritus bishop of his diocese, and leave the role of ordinary bishop of Shantou to Joseph Huang Bingzhang, the 51-year-old who in 2011 had been excommunicated for having received episcopal ordination without the Pope’s placet (and who will be readmitted by the Pope to the Church’s communion).

    However, in order to make the story “work”, some pretty important and compromising details have been removed.

    A cleaned up script

    In reality, several Chinese ecclesial sources have confirmed to Vatican Insider that Pietro Zhuang has never been part of the “Underground” Catholic community. He was ordained priest in 1986 by Aloysius Jin Luxian, a Jesuit of Shanghai, who at that time was also an illegitimate bishop, i.e. ordained without the Pope’s apostolic mandate. The government does not recognize Zhuang as bishop of Shantou. Yet he is registered as a priest and still appears to be at the top of the Patriotic Association in Jiexi County, in the Guangdong Province. In the past, he was also a member of the local People’s Congress. Since the nineties, he has collaborated with the offices of local “patriotic” bodies.

    It is important to remember that in Shantou there was and there is no “underground” Catholic reality. All priests have studied in seminaries funded and supervised by the government. But the local Catholic community has become increasingly polarized around disputes over episcopal appointments, also because of rivalries between two different ethnic groups, Hakka and Chaozhou. Zhuang is part of the Hakka ethnic group, like two other bishops of the region (Giuseppe Gan Junqiu, bishop of Guangzhou, and Joseph Liao Hongqing, bishop of Meixian).

    Vatican Insider contacted some local sources who report that in recent years the issue of fidelity to the Pope and to the Holy See has become an instrument to cover up the true nature of intra-ecclesial disputes. The same sources also add that a group of young priests, of the same ethnicity as Zhuang, have the elderly bishop’s ear, influencing his choices and have as ultimate goal, one among them appointed as future ordinary bishop of Shantou.

    Propaganda vs reality

    Opponents of a possible agreement between the Holy See and popular China have planned their campaign around the story of Bishop Zhuang, not hesitating to leak data related to sensitive and intimate issues, such as choices of conscience to which the bishops are called in their bond of communion with the Successor of Peter. They pre-packaged the “narration” of the elderly and faithful bishop, mistreated by a Roman Curia eager to receive diplomatic successes, and ready to “sell out” the fidelity and suffering of Chinese Catholics.

    But the very story of Bishop Zhuang, a pastor who remained faithful to the Catholic Church and the Pope, reveals the irresolvable internal contradiction and manipulative nature of this scheme.

    The bishop, “sacrificed” to advance relations with the Chinese government, is in fact himself in permanent contact with the “patriotic” bodies that answer to the Party. Those same organisms that, according to the enemies of the China-Vatican agreement, represent the distinctive sign and genetic factor of a schismatic Chinese Church, separated from the Church of Rome.

    In reality, the very human and Christian path of Bishop Zhuang – whom the government does not recognize as a bishop, yet he holds office in pro-government “patriotic” bodies - shows that, on the winding paths of the Church in China, the compulsory involvement in those patriotic bodies does not represent an irreconcilable contradiction with regard to one’s belonging to the Catholic Church or to the public displaying of one’s fidelity to the Pope and the bond of hierarchical communion with him. Despite their opposition, the rock-solid opponents of the possible agreement between the Apostolic See and the Chinese government are the living proof. Namely those who in recent days exalted Zhuang as faithful bishop of the Pope, suggesting that his fidelity had been betrayed and mistreated by the Holy See.

    To those who look at it with a critical and non-ideologically gaze, even the story of the bishop of Shantou - whom the government does not recognize as a bishop, yet he is fully integrated in the “patriotic” bodies controlling the Church – gives us a glimpse in the tangle of elements that make the condition of the Chinese Catholic community anomalous “on the ground”. Including the risk of new clerical careerisms, fueled also by the exclusive focus on the issue of episcopal appointments that in recent years has heavily conditioned the real life of the Church in China. Finding a solution to the issue regarding episcopal selection procedures, shared between Beijing and the Apostolic See, should also serve this purpose: to rediscover the very nature of the episcopal ministry, which helps true pastors to become bishops, and aims to strip the Chinese Episcopal Seats from the appetites of those ambitious hunters in search of titles and positions of political and moral power.

  13. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    The bottom issue here is wether Beijing can be trusted. And whenever Beijing has been trusted, it has stubbed the Church in the back when least expected. When they we reached an agreement and will respect the Vatican appointment of bishops, then out of the blue they, when least expected, the organized a patriotic bishops conference and nominate new bishops. This is at least what I heard from a Spanish missionary in China.

    The new regulations entered into effect this Feb 1 do not allow children to go to Church, among other things. Did the Vatican knew about them and agreed to such a despicable thing, just a question.


    Chinese priests ordered to put up signs banning children from churches
    Friday Feb 9

    Chinese officials have said churches will not be allowed to function unless they post the signs

    Since China’s new regulations for religious affairs took effect on February 1, minors have been banned from entering places of worship in several regions.

    A priest in Hebei province who asked to remain anonymous told ucanews.com that authorities had asked clergymen in some parts of the province to post signs prohibiting minors from entering religious venues, prayer houses and other church premises.

    “They also threaten churches that they cannot be used if they refuse to post the signs,” he said.

    A blogger wrote that “religious venues are the third premises, following clubs and internet bars, where minors are prohibited from entering by authorities.”

    Peter, a Catholic in central China, said he had seen such signs posted in churches in Xinjiang.

    He told ucanews.com there are no legal grounds for officials prohibiting minors from entering religious venues, and he accused officials of violating China’s constitution.

    “When minors enter internet bars, the government and police turn a blind eye. However, they are becoming very strict in prohibiting minors from entering religious venues. It is ridiculous,” he said.

    Peter said the constitution clearly stipulates that citizens have religious freedom, while protection laws state that teenagers and children cannot be discriminated against because of their religious beliefs.

    He said the Universal Declaration of Human Rights also stipulates that parents have the right to educate their children in accordance with their religious beliefs.

    Before the regulations took effect, Ying Fuk-tsang, director of the divinity school at The Chinese University of Hong Kong, told ucanews.com that much would depend on how lower- and higher-level communist officials implement the details.

    A priest identified only as Father Thomas of Henan told ucanews.com he, too, believed the regulations would be implemented differently across China, mainly depending on the relationship between the local church and the local government.

    The priest said he was talking to the State Administration for Religious Affairs “to strive for space for religious freedom and the Church to survive; to protect the Church and staff from being attacked; and to preserve the Church’s dogma.”

    “All religious sites must be registered; no religious activities can be held beyond registered venues; non-registered clergymen are forbidden to host religious liturgies; and party members and minors are prohibited from entering a church,” he said. “The living space for the Church is getting less and less.”

    In northeastern China, Father John of the underground Catholic community – churches that refuse to register with the government – told ucanews.com that authorities had spoken to him about the revised regulations.

    “Officials do not want us to be really underground, which would mean they would lose our traces and not know where we are,” he said.

    “If our dogma is not meddled with, everything will be fine. If the religious affairs bureau and the public security bureau understand us, they will not have any worries. If we are really undergoing clandestine activities, we are really a problem to them.”

    But one priest who serves villages said authorities have placed greater restrictions on the Church.

    “Some may say that if relations between the Church and law enforcement officials are good, the Church may get lenient treatment,” he said. “But this is only deceiving oneself. As long as the central government requires stringent enforcement, local officials will enforce more strictly.”

    Before the regulations, communist authorities were already tightening their grip on practising Christians. Last August, ucanews.com reported at least four regional governments had issued notices that restricted children from joining Christian groups and attending religious activities.

  14. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    And also even an echo from the New York Times:

    By recognizing China’s so-called patriotic church, the Vatican could harm the wholesomeness of Catholic teachings in the country. Sermons given in government-sanctioned churches already have been known to exclude passages of the Bible deemed politically subversive (like the story of Daniel) or to include Communist Party propaganda.

    Millions of faithful Catholics in China might also soon feel abandoned, perhaps even betrayed, after having suffered decades of oppression. Worse, the government, emboldened by the deal, could well come down even harder on them. In fact, the religious regulations that recently came into effect include much stiffer fines on underground churches and penalties for public-school teachers who give Sunday-school lessons on their own time.

    And then, rapprochement might augur the Vatican’s readiness to eventually stop recognizing Taipei and instead recognize Beijing as truly representing China. Such a shift would alter the delicate balance of power across the Taiwan Strait, as well as harm Taiwan’s vibrant democracy. It would also confer legitimacy — and with the pope’s imprimatur! — on authoritarian regimes throughout the world that crack down on churches and sects.”



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  15. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    NJ Cardinal Tobin: No 'Theological Reason Why The Pope Couldn't Name a Woman Cardinal'

    In an interview with the New York Times'sleft-wing columnist Nicholas Kristof, the head of the archdiocese of Newark, N.J., Cardinal Joseph Tobin, said he saw no reason why Pope Francis could not name a woman as a Cardinal of the Catholic Church, something that has never happened in the 2,000-year history of the Church.

    Kristof, who rejects the virgin birth of Christ and the Resurrection, asked Cardinal Tobin, "One area where the Catholic Church seems to me antiquated is gender. If Jesus trusted women like Mary Magdalene, if Phoebe could be a leader of the early church, then why can’t women be priests or cardinals today?"

    Tobin, who was made a cardinal by Pope Francis in 2016, said, "Those are two different questions. Regarding priests, it really is a stumbling block for people, and especially in this country and in this culture, as all areas of life are opening up to women that this particular ministry in the Catholic Church is not. So I understand the consternation."

    "I have eight sisters," said Card. Tobin. "I know for some women this sort of stumbling block takes them away from the church."

    "As for cardinals, most are bishops but not all of them," he said. "As recently as the 19th century there were lay people who were cardinals."

    Kristof then asked, "So will we see women cardinals soon?"

    The head of the Newark archdiocese said, "Maybe my theology isn’t sophisticated enough, but I don’t believe that there’s a compelling theological reason why the Pope couldn’t name a woman cardinal."

    "Pope Francis has promised to find a more incisive role for women in the church," he said. "There are isolated incidents of women being appointed to fairly influential posts in the Roman Curia. I think it’s got to be more than that."

    It is a matter of Catholic faith that priests, bishops, cardinals, and Popes must be male because they represent Jesus Christ, who was a man, and because all the apostles were men. In his 1994 letter, Ordinatio sacredotalis, Pope St. John Paul II declared that "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

    Further, the Church has declared that Pope St. John Paul II's letter on ordination of men only to the priesthood is "founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied to the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magesterium" of the Church. This teaching "is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith."

    Simply, the teaching will never change because it was established by God Himself.

    There are an estimated 1.3 million Catholics in the Newark archdiocese.

  16. AED

    AED Powers

    I don’t know what to compare this to—a Twilight Zone episode? Because this is like the Twilight Zone. What in heck is going on? Where do these so called Cardinals come from. What are they thinking?! Where is their allegiance. They are moving swiftly now to complete the demolition of the Church. They must know their time is short. I think they are in for a most unpleasant surprise.
  17. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    Raymond Arroyo interviews Elizabeth Yore, attorney and child advocate.

    She examines the Chilean clergy abuse controversy.

    I think this is a must watch, if you can stomach it.

    Features an interview with the alleged abuse victim who wrote that letter to the Pope in 2015.

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  18. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Warren on Zen, etc.:

    "Of Vatican cages
    Among the more difficult acts for a contemporary Catholic is to pray for the betrayers of the Church, in places like Rome. Cardinal Zen, the retired bishop of Hong Kong — one of my living heroes, for his honesty and steadfastness — put this well in a statement about Cardinal Pietro Palorin, the Vatican secretary of state; and the papal press spokesman, Greg Burke. Both had glibly “spun” Cardinal Zen’s powerful words against the accommodation the Vatican is now making with the regime in Peking — in the course of which they defamed him.

    “Yesterday not a few individuals came to see me or telephoned me to offer me some comfort, following the accusation made against me by the spokesman for the Vatican. But they have misunderstood, because I do not need to be comforted. It would have been better for them to have gone to comfort that spokesman. He is the one who is a caged bird, forced to perform such an embarrassing rôle.”

    The Vatican is currently betraying its own faithful bishops of the clandestine Church in China. In order to improve relations with the Communist dictatorship, they are being publicly “retired” and replaced by appointees of the regime, who had been excommunicated under previous popes. Now, those faithful are instructed to bow before these sell-outs. This, in my view, is an obscenity. The excuse from Rome is that it will make life for Catholics in China more comfortable. True, they must live in a cage; but the cage will be larger.

    Cardinal Zen asks: Who is in the cage? Is it the man who speaks the truth, and worships in freedom, at risk of arrest? Or the man who parrots sophistries, from a position of luxurious safety? (Zen called Parolin directly, “A man of little faith.”) Those who have never endured real suffering in this world, pretend that they are doing the persecuted a favour, when it is their own convenience they are serving.

    It is not the sort of favour Christ ever did. He expected persecution, and told us to endure. “Before they hated you, they hated me.” He promised that the Comforter will come, in our hour of need: “Even the Spirit of Truth.”

    From Rome, we must also listen to Bishop Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, chancellor of the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, who after a quick mainland tour as guest of the Chinese politburo, has praised the regime for implementing the social doctrine of the encyclical Laudato Si’, and supporting the Paris Climate Accord — drawing invidious comparisons to the USA where there are shantytowns, the young are on drugs, and President Trump is manipulated by multinational oil companies. One can only wonder if this comical stooge is on drugs himself.

    Here is the Christian paradox: that real comfort comes from a clean conscience, and discomfort from a dirty one. And the greatest comfort, for a life well-lived, is to part it without the burden of grave sin. We pray to be relieved, ourselves, from temptation — something profound that is lost on the faithless. We do not pray to get away with sin, or be “accompanied” by priests in our wrongdoing.

    And so it makes sense to pray for our enemies, particularly those within the Church. They need help which only Christ can give. Our condemnation of them is little use to the self-condemned. Pray rather, that they wake to their peril."
  19. padraig

    padraig New Member

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  20. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I'm with Zen. Somebody is lying and it's not him. But, oh yeah, continue to put your faith in the Communist Party of China and their fellow-travellers in the Vatican and keep believing that the 'propaganda' is coming from Cardinal Zen and the faithful Catholics that defied dungeon, fire and sword for so many, many years. Go on ahead, and row in with the one-child policy, and everything else that surrendering to the Chinese communists will demand. It'll be worth it, won't it, as the Commies offer to change stones into bread.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018

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