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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
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  2. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I think, Julia, that it depended on where you lived whether many Catholics were breaking the 6th Commandment. There's an attempt now to pass off the reversal of Humane Vitae because it wasn't accepted by the faithful from the time it was issued. Actually, it was generally accepted with the resistance coming from some very influential Catholics in rich, mostly Protestant countries and staunchly secularist France - the resistance being led by Jesuits or faculty members of Jesuit universities (Bella Dodd's 1,000 Communist seminarians spring to mind). Pope Paul V1 spelled out clearly in Humane Vitae what would follow the widespread use of artificial birth control - essentially the destruction of families which are the lynchpin of any stable society.

    We only have to look around us to see how right was Pope Paul Vl and how wrong were the dissenters. The dissenters continued their dissent, spreading their errors throughout Catholic educational institutions and seminaries. Catholic couples continued to have larger families (breeding like rabbits). Then, seeing their Protestant neighbours' comfortable lifestyles, they found priests who told them that contraception was a matter for their conscience (the good old internal forum). Contraception became so widespread that couples didn't wait until marriage to have sex, men didn't have to fear a pregnant girlfriend turning up on the wife's doorstep. Free love was pushed in every movie and every TV programme. "Civil" divorce was promoted as a better alternative to raising children in an unhappy marriage. Unwanted pregnancies were seen as a restriction on women's freedom and progress. Too many children were seen as an unnecessary expense. Abortion followed. Everything Pope Paul Vl said would happen has happened. Rather than seeing this to be the case, Catholic educational institutions led again by Jesuits, having promoted contraception, fornication and adultery as good, have moved on to calling sodomy good. And now they have a Pope leading the pack.

    The way to correct error is not to pander to it. Jesus never told sinners that sinning was ok as long as they felt good about it. He never offered to accompany them in sin with some vague, faint hope that they would grow tired of it and gradually change their ways. His first sermon started with "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand". Our current hierarchy seems to think that repentance can wait because the Kingdom of God is a long way off. That's if they actually believe in a Kingdom of God which would depend on whether they believe in God. I have my doubts about that.
  3. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Even if everyone, including ourselves, abandons our position, it will still be the correct one. Christ Himself mooted the possibility. The Truth is not arrived at by vote.
    Light, SgCatholic, AED and 7 others like this.
  4. padraig

    padraig New Member

    That's a good way of putting it Julia. We must point the fingers at ourselves first.:(
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  5. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    It is not, DeGaulle, but nor is it arrived at by being 'certain' that 'we' are right.

  6. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Has absolutely nothing to do with me. I follow Christ and His Word. 'Tis you and your friends have decided to rely on your own human certainty.

    Below I post a chilling article from Father Z. I warn you, it requires a strong stomach, but it illustrates strongly where we will go if we allow the Mercy agenda to disconnect from the Justice one. There are limits to Christ's Mercy. It is best that some are thrown into the sea with a millstone around their neck, to paraphrase Him:

    DISGUSTING LBGT story reveals something about homosexualist agenda in the Church. Wherein Fr. Z rants.

    Posted on 12 January 2018 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
    [​IMG]This is disgusting, but it is necessary for you to know.

    A forward, which I have offered before:

    I’ve argued here – often – that the homosexualist agenda has been patiently engaged for a long time and is still reaching for that brass ring.

    The brass ring is the lowering of the age of consent.

    The homosexualists have slowly been shifting the language about deviant same-sex acts and those who regularly commit them.

    Through the MSM and entertainment industry the image of homosexuality as something hidden and unclean was broken by replacing it with victim status during the flaming up of the AIDS epidemic in certain populations.

    Then the victim image had to be broken and replaced, which was accomplished through cool and “with it” characters in TV shows and other culture movers. Think of the absurdly high percentage of homosexuals in TV shows, increasing every year. You can’t turn on a TV series now and not find it filled with deviants, now doing deviant things in prime time.

    BUT! They are cool and emotionally sensitive, who have answers for the dysfunctional and often less attractive “hetero” characters.

    Fuse this culture shift with the rise of no-fault divorce and nearly universal contraception and we have the perfect deadly storm that can rip the sexual act conceptually away from marriage (what’s that?) and procreation (what’s that?).

    Shall we mention the near total silence of the Catholic Church?

    Now that subcultures are multiplying like viruses, we are just about ready, I think, for the next stage of the assault on the human person and God’s plan. Not content for legalization of same-sex “marriage”, the next phase of the homosexualist agenda will soon be implemented: lowering of the age of consent(aka the aforementioned the brass ring).

    And now they have helpers within the Church who are highly visible and often in positions of authority. Certain Jesuits are blatant homosexualists, their superiors do nothing to stop them and bishops allow them to speak anywhere. Bishops themselves in Germany are talking about blessing same-sex relationships.

    Within the Catholic Church very highly placed authorities are working incrementally to detach procreation from human procreative powers and potentials and acts.

    If you can successfully detach procreation from the use of procreative acts, etc., then it’s game over for Catholic moral teaching and, subsequently, for all Catholic doctrine. Once you say that what is true (in nature and revelation) isn’t true, it’s over.

    And, to be clear, the brass ring they are all reaching for is the lowering of the age of consent of those whom you can rape … have sex with.

    And to hell with those who are trying to live chaste lives and who fight various inclinations. Now, highly placed teachers in the Church are offering justification for mortal sins because, after all, people can live according to “ideals”. And, well, in our “lived experience”, we see that living chastely can be difficult, and that many fall. The ideal remains the ideal but we all know that it is is simply too hard. Therefore, let’s stop calling acts that violate the ideal an obstacle to receiving the sacraments (which are also “ideals”, I guess).

    If some at the very pinnacle of those behind the scenes fueling these movements – not their Jesuit tools, German bishops, etc. – have the ultimate transformation of the Church in mind, those who are at lower levels of the movements really want to have sex with anyone or anything, and to start recruiting while their young.

    Now look at LifeSite‘s story about

    LGBT fetish underwear designer defends making 9-year-old drag queen its ‘covergirl’

    January 11, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – The designer behind an “LGBT luxury brand” is defending using a 9-year-old drag queen to advertise a sequined onesie alongside a “BDSM Bondage Leather Star and Chain Dress,” bondage-themed nipple pasties, and glittery anatomy-highlighting men’s underwear.

    House of Mann, run by Brandon Hilton, is a Charlotte, North Carolina-based online shop that sells clothing and lingerie for drag queens and gay men. It uses “vegan leather,” sequins, and various bondage and sex motifs to make its products. [It’s safe for the environment?]

    Nine-year-old Nemis Quinn Mélançon Golden, also known by his drag name “Lactatia,” became a sensation after appearing onstage at the Montreal stop of the “Werq the World Tour.” His mother, Jessica Mélançon, encourages Nemis to be a “drag queen.”

    Breitbart and the Daily Caller originally sounded the alarm at Nemis named House of Mann’s “covergirl,” and being featured alongside “vegan leather harness jackets” and “fetish stripper boxer briefs.”


    Mark you… this is what the homosexualists within the Catholic Church also want.

    Please share!
    josephite likes this.
  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    David I want you to know I have felt absolutely sick this afternoon about what I said to you earlier. Though I am hot tempered at times, it is generally not in my nature to be rude to individuals. I went back and reread what I wrote and I am not even sure what to write. In some sense I am sorry I upset you, but at the same time I agree with what I initially wrote. I will not have myself (and other Traditionalists) be blamed for this debacle. It is not the fault of the Traditionalists or some other group of "dissenters" for what is happening. It is coming directly from those in the Vatican. The current crop in power wish to tag faithful Catholics as scapegoats and I will not lay down for that garbage.

    So in essence I am sorry if I was rude in the way I went about saying what I said, but I believe every word of it. There is a space growing between what those on my side believe and what those on your side believe. I care about you as a brother, but I see you as a lost brother who is spreading poison. No doubt you see me the same way and that is the crux of the problem. We do not share the same faith anymore.

    So I am not even sure exactly what I am trying to say. You can consider this a non-apology if you wish, but it truly started out as an attempt at an apology if I hurt you. I do not enjoy fighting, but my Church is being despoiled and like Peter sometimes I feel the temptation to grab the hilt of the sword and strike at those who would attempt to harm my King. As we move deeper into this crisis I imagine that you, posting the types of articles you do, will be in that role. So in essence it breaks my heart that there is growing a vacuum between those who once called themselves brothers in Christ, but at this point it seems unavoidable. A sword has been flung between brother and brother, between sister and sister. We must all take up sides now. There is no longer any middle ground. It is my great sorrow to see you on the opposing side of the battlefield as the armies take formation, but we all make our choices.

    May Christ and Our Lady guide you through the Chastisement safely.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
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  8. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I am not sure how large the contingency of Catholics, who are aware and outspoken towards the apostasy actually is. I feel it is quite small in comparison to the clueless and those who know and accept what Pope Francis is doing. I can only assess this within my own small environment and I don't know of anyone, except my two brothers, who have a clue what is transpiring within the Church. If I were to guess, I would say about 5-10% of Catholics are aware and speaking to the apostasy, 20% who know and support the apostasy and 70% completely clueless of anything going on.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  9. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

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  10. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I have thought about what the numbers might be for a long time and I would guess you are probably pretty accurate in your predictions of the numbers.

    My guess would be something like this:
    Catholics are aware of the apostasy to some degree - 20%
    Catholics who are aware of and speaking against the apostasy - 5%
    "Catholics" who are completely clueless of anything going on - 60%
    Apostates who know and support the apostasy - 20%
  11. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    This may have already been posted somewhere, but please, PLEASE, take a moment and watch this through till the end:

    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  12. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    And with that assessment, I once again post what Pope Benedict (Father Ratzinger) said of this time which seems to be unfolding very quickly now.....

    In a 1969 German radio broadcast, Father Joseph Ratzinger would offer his thoughtfully considered answer. Here are his concluding remarks,

    “The future of the Church can and will issue from those whose roots are deep and who live from the pure fullness of their faith. It will not issue from those who accommodate themselves merely to the passing moment or from those who merely criticize others and assume that they themselves are infallible measuring rods; nor will it issue from those who take the easier road, who sidestep the passion of faith, declaring false and obsolete, tyrannous and legalistic, all that makes demands upon men, that hurts them and compels them to sacrifice themselves. To put this more positively: The future of the Church, once again as always, will be reshaped by saints, by men, that is, whose minds probe deeper than the slogans of the day, who see more than others see, because their lives embrace a wider reality. Unselfishness, which makes men free, is attained only through the patience of small daily acts of self-denial. By this daily passion, which alone reveals to a man in how many ways he is enslaved by his own ego, by this daily passion and by it alone, a man’s eyes are slowly opened. He sees only to the extent that he has lived and suffered. If today we are scarcely able any longer to become aware of God, that is because we find it so easy to evade ourselves, to flee from the depths of our being by means of the narcotic of some pleasure or other. Thus our own interior depths remain closed to us. If it is true that a man can see only with his heart, then how blind we are!

    “How does all this affect the problem we are examining? It means that the big talk of those who prophesy a Church without God and without faith is all empty chatter. We have no need of a Church that celebrates the cult of action in political prayers. It is utterly superfluous. Therefore, it will destroy itself. What will remain is the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church that believes in the God who has become man and promises us life beyond death. The kind of priest who is no more than a social worker can be replaced by the psychotherapist and other specialists; but the priest who is no specialist, who does not stand on the [sidelines], watching the game, giving official advice, but in the name of God places himself at the disposal of man, who is beside them in their sorrows, in their joys, in their hope and in their fear, such a priest will certainly be needed in the future.

    “Let us go a step farther. From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge — a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so it will lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, it will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, it will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly it will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Along-side this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize the sacraments as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.

    “The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed. One may predict that all of this will take time. The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain — to the renewal of the nineteenth century. But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

    “And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. It may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but it will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.
  13. AED

    AED Powers

    These words are as prophetic as Pail VI in Humanae Vitae.
  14. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    Something doesn't add up if you ask me, I have met and become friends with people at Church who are saying the exact same things that are said here. I think that there are many more of us than we think, I think as well that we think this because we have been told it repeatedly. By who? Everyone. Even we repeat this to each other further reinforcing it in our minds.
    Remember, less than 1% of the population of Russia was able to deceive the 99 into believing that they had an overwhelming majority of support. It was this way in the US as well leading into the last election. Except it didn't work.

    We desperately need a leader to come forward and dispel this fog from within our midst.
  15. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    But Don, didn't you say that you left a liberal parish and found a traditional one?
    If so that would explain why your parish is informed.

    I was just giving broad guesses, they will vary from region to region and from parish to parish.

    For example at the Latin Masses in my state (there are only 2) I would say 90-100% of the people attending are aware of what is going on and are concerned.

    Conversely at the church my parents attend I would be surprised if only 20% of them really know about anything that is going on and for the most part they would probably support it.

    I hope you are right and I am wrong.
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  16. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    The most spurious argument in favour of these modernist changes by Pope Francis is the claim that he is popular and his changes are welcomed by all but stick-in-the-mud backward fundamentalists.

    Of course a majority of Catholics will welcome it, especially all those devout former altar boys and choir girls who only manage to attend Christmas and possibly Easter Masses. Now they are being told that what's good with them and the State is good with God. Those old rigourist hard teachings are still on the books but only to be practiced later in life when things aren't so complicated and we're in life's departure lounge. Even a large percentage of regular Mass goers will welcome it because there's no need to worry any more about their friends and family in "irregular" unions. Amoris Laetitia's got them covered.

    We know that the final trial of the Church will be when the AC offers man a solution to his problems which entails turning away from God's Truth. This is a forerunner. Satan has upped his game and has connected with a punch to the body this time.
  17. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    May the Lord hear this prayer and answer favourably.
  18. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    Yes, you are correct of course Praetorian. I often wonder how many people do not do what we did however and stay in their Parish for one reason or another, dozing off at Mass and asleep as well to what is happening in the Church rather than driving to the nearest God fearing Parish and voting with their feet and wallets.
    Just as Dolours said, in such an apt way; our departure lounges. Curiously, it was that same Parish where I saw so many asleep in the pew. A bit off topic but I just received a newcomer welcome invitation to a luncheon from this Parish. A full year to the month since I left it.
    Maybe I am over estimating the numbers of those who simply need to be awoken to the Truth of our situation but I don't think I am. It always goes like this when we are comfortable and take things for granted. I am sure that I too would fall asleep if the Priest were talking about the game at every Homily and then rushing from Mass to watch it.
    I believe that a great many of the Faithful are simply fallen asleep. Much like that in the Garden at Gethsemane.
    What will it take to wake them up? How can we help to rouse our Brothers and Sisters?
  19. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Yes, sadly Don the first parish you described is much more the "mainstream" Catholic parish. Most people are asleep and have very little if any foundation in their faith. They hardly pray, don't go to confession, probably view Church as just a weekly social gathering or maybe just go from some leftover sense of Catholicism from their childhood. It is partly not their fault for not having been taught. Although they still have an obligation to find out what they can on their own.

    Of course this can vary from country to country and area to area. In New England where I live I would say the faith is just about dead, or maybe on a respirator. The Midwest seems a little more vibrant.

    Even in countries which we might view as having a vibrant faith, there is still much apostasy. My brother works for a major company that is moving some of it's headquarters to Poland so he has been over there several times a year for the past few years. He said it is very sad. Almost no one knew who St. Faustina was or what the Divine Mercy Devotion is. He was asking around because he wanted to buy some religious items for the family. Of course he was just asking people on the street, not in church, but still you would think they would know.
  20. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Let me say straight away that on a personal level you did not upset me in any way. I don't mind tough responses but what you wrote then, and here, does upset me!

    To call a well reasoned article 'garbage' is, in my book, an insult to the writer and to anyone who appreciates it. We should never insult. In your post here, you are still showing that 'certainty' of belief which scorns any opinion which conflicts with it. That attitude is shared by many of your fellow posters.

    What is Truth, Pilate asked. We Christians have learned that Jesus, a Person, is the Truth. It is not a set of beliefs that can be legally or scientifically 'proved'. Yet you dismiss the possibility that you may be mistaken in your views. To find the Truth we need to become humble. We cannot come close to Jesus who is the Truth without becoming humble. We all lack humility in various degrees. We are all sinners in various degrees.

    I feel compelled to copy here a quote from Solzhenitsyn that I may have quoted before but it gets to the heart of the problem of humility:

    In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel. In the surfeit of power I was a murderer, and an oppressor. In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments. And it was only when I lay there on rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the first stirrings of good. Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains… an unuprooted small corner of evil.”

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