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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    It seems to me that one will not have to wait to face God for that which is hidden to be brought to light. It is happening now in fact. People are desperately trying to hide their true face but it is in vain. They dig their own pits and walk right into them.
     
  2. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Our understanding of doctrine develops, Fatima.

    Here is the great Cardinal Newman:

    I have maintained that modern Catholicism is nothing else but simply the legitimate growth and complement, that is, the natural and necessary development, of the doctrine of the early church, and that its divine authority is included in the divinity of Christianity.

    http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/
    And here is Pope Benedict speaking of Newman's thinking:

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c..._cfaith_doc_19900428_ratzinger-newman_en.html

     
  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I wonder what Cardinal Newman would have to say about giving Holy Communion to active adulterers? I am sure he would not think of this as "growth" or "development".

    The Church's understanding of growth and development is that it can never contradict previous Church Teachings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  4. carpediemptf

    carpediemptf BeStillandPray

    I TOTALLY AGREE!!! With moral relativism/ religious relativism, and language relativism, etc. and the rampant state of blindness in most people clouded by the darkness of sin, the battle will only be won through much prayer, penance, sacrifice, and good personal example/witness. Stay close to our Blessed Mother (the spouse of the Holy Spirit) and she will guide us through the difficult discernment of what we should do. Today's first reading about the Israelites losing over 30,000 men is a great example of how humans often, in our own sinfulness & pride, do not discern properly. We go into battle without being prepared or thinking God will bring us victory and we try and "force" God's will (like the Israelites did by bringing the Ark of the Covenant into their camp and battle with them). We must pray and pray often (especially the Rosary) and go to daily Mass as often as possible. There is a strong hurricane strength wind of blindness covering the earth caused by sin and disobedience and we can easily be caught up in it if we are not grounded by a strong pray life and Sacramental life. PRAY PRAY PRAY and do not worry!

    Jesus told the lepar in today's reading "I do will it (your healing)" and the leper was healed. We are all lepers! TRUST in Him. This is His Church/His Body.
     
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  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I am very content that you have accepted the teaching of Paul VI, David. I agree with you that doctrine develops. The Gospels were very brief. One could read them in a few hours, with ample concentration. Yet, they formed what consisted of the doctrines of the Apostles, combined with the oral knowledge they would have absorbed from Our Lord and Our Lady.

    We all know that this doctrine expanded in our understanding under the influence of successive popes, saints and Church Fathers without its essence being altered by one iota. This unalterability we all know is the effect of the Holy Spirit. Thanks to this miraculous development, we are privileged in our generation to have the resources to speak far more broadly about, for example the theology of Our Lord's Sacrifice of Himself upon the Cross, than those who had the even more special privilege to actually witness it. It might be said that this development is our compensation for our increasing distance from these events through time, in particular, and to varying extents through space. It goes without saying, that this compensation would be completely undone were the development to be violently destroyed by a rapacious change in doctrine, in other words a negation of the Truth.
     
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  6. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Do you know what I find very strange about people who get divorced or just leave their partner and shack up with someone else.

    Why do they want to bother with Church any more. Jesus once said, "If you can not love the people around you, how can you say you love God."

    The thing is, those people have failed to love the person they are married to. And I believe the crux of the problem lies in the mistaken belief that 'the urge of the flesh is love.' Love is nothing to do with the urge of the flesh. And the sooner the Church realises this, the sooner all this nonsense about 'Must Have' sex to be a complete person will be put to rest.

    I think sometimes there is instant Love. But in most cases there is that chemical attraction which comes down to the animal instinct we share with the rest of creation, where pro creation is practiced to keep the species going, and that is where we are caught in the urge of the flesh. Then when the lovey dovey wears off, couples start to wake up to the reality of what love really is. I believe Love really is accepting and tolerating and making allowances for the stranger you find sharing your life, and with the Churches blessing you have made your bed and must lie in it. Never mind shopping around for a better version of a life partner. They are all the same when the light goes off. Just an old grannies view.:rolleyes:
     
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  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I hate to say it, but this is all just pure apostasy from the faith. I don't know what this means for the Church. Schism is not an answer, though it may happen. Perhaps some sort of underground Church will develop, existing somehow within the framework of the larger apostate Church. Left alone to follow our "outdated" version of the Church. Keeping the flame of faith alive in basements and barns. It may have priests like on Sensus Fidelium who will actually preach about Heaven, Hell, Our Lady, the Rosary, etc. While the apostates collect money for social services and enjoy their comfortable worldly church.

    It is all very sad. We may not be "rescued" as quickly as we might hope. "Soon" in Heavenly terms can mean decades, even a longer. We all know this. It has been a century since Fatima. Even though we appear to be at the culmination, it may still drag out many years until we dwindle in number and faith appears all but lost on the Earth. We know it is a possibility that faith can be allowed to shrink this much from the Bible.

    But when the Son of man comes, shall he indeed find faith on the earth?
    -Luke 18:8
     
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  8. Mea Kulpa

    Mea Kulpa Angels

    You know just before the 2nd world war King Edward VIII abdicated the throne of the united kingdom and his brother became king. At the time they cited his love for a Catholic Woman. As a child my father told me this was not the real reason it was infact because he was a nazi and friends with hitler. Years later as a man what my father had said all those years ago came out very publically. But even this was not the real reason he abdicated the throne. Edward would back the facists his brother George the alies thereby securing the future of the monarchy regardless of the out come of the war... politics

    There are many reasons given why some say francis is not the true pope and benedict is

    The political pressure placed on benedict the obama Catholic spring the cia wire tapping the gay lobby reports of blackmail the death threats and thwarted attempts on his life the ecclesiastical pressure placed on him by liberal progressive cardinals and bishops the words of his own final address the fact he still wears white holds the title of pope while francis de emphisises it. Benedictd continued wearing of the fishermans ring while francis wears his bishops ring his secratary george gainswein dual papacy nonsense his own inaugeration address "pray for me that i do not flee for fear of the wolves" a whole multitude of Catholic prophecy the fifth election the st galan mafia and new bishops and cardinals having to go to see pope benedict (to get his blessing?) and so on... i do not see these as seperate individual reasons but over all evidence of a single reality that even francis nods his head to for those who have eyes and those who have ears.

    There is a war
    liberals vs conservitives
    modernism vs traditionalism

    Whatever the outcome the church will survive either in her original doctrine or in a new way

    But the deciding factor for me is pope benedicts own unequvical words that francis is not pope in an interview with german journalist peter seewald

    We read

    SEEWALD: Do you see yourself as the last Pope of the old world or the first of the new?

    BENEDICT: I would say BOTH

    SEEWALD: As a bridge, a kind of connecting element between the two worlds?

    BENEDICT: I don’t belong to the old world anymore, but the new one in reality Hasn't yet begun.

    He is the last pope of the old world the world we are in now and the first pope of the new world that has not yet begun.

    Fancis is not pope in this world because benedict is the last pope of this world and he isnt pope in the new world because that hasnt begun yet and when it does benedict is the first pope of that world...so by his own words he leaves no room for francis to be pope now or in the future.

    These words benedict uses i believe he is referencing our lords own words and sending us a message

    "would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

    I am not saying pope benedict is likening himself to Jesus but referencing this saying i am the true pope the true way the true vicar of christ... and why did jesus reveal this to the apostles and not the world? And why is pope benedict a man of clear and precison teaching suddenly talking in cryptic parables and metaphore?

    Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

    23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

    I dont know if you understand what i mean its a seperating of the wheat from the chaff a cleansing.

    I know that those who think francis is the true pope will think i am in schism but it works the other way also if benedict remains pope then those who believe francis to be pope are the ones in schism... this truely is the greatest falling away from the faith... the greatest schsim

    A false pope - A true pope
    A false gospel - A true gospel
    A false church - A true chruch

    http://wdtprs.com/blog/2016/09/benedict-xvi-last-pope-of-one-era-or-first-of-the-next/
     
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  9. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Doctrinal development:

    A baby kitten can become a full grown cat.

    Apostasy:

    A baby kitten can become a hippopotamus.
     
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  10. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Here is an interesting little story that shows just how widespread the disillusionment is with Pope Francis. Apparently they hold a lottery each year to pick the 3rd year seminary students who will get the honor of serving at the Papal Christmas Mass. This past Christmas everyone who applied was accepted and there was no lottery because there was a lack of interest among the seminarians.

    https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1536
     
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  11. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Whatever we think of him, we must accept Francis is the Pope because the world's Bishops accept him. Pope Benedict talking in riddles doesn't change that. He resigned. He said he wasn't pressured and we have to take him at his word. This isn't the middle ages where popes could be imprisoned or banished. Wheeling out Pope Benedict to bless newly ordained bishops is showmanship - the new Pope showing how kind and respectful he is to the old Pope. It's a bit like all those acts of charity and humility with cameras conveniently located to ensure publicity. Benedict has had plenty of opportunity to say that Francis is an imposter or anti-Pope if he really believed that to be the case but he has gone out of his way to reassure everyone that Francis is the legitimate Pope. Legitimate doesn't make him a good Pope but he is the valid Pope unless the Bishops say otherwise. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

    May God forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm beginning to think that perhaps Pope Francis is the destroyer prophesied by St. Francis. Every prophecy suggesting that there will be apostasy at the top of the Church is ridiculed or doubted but there are too many of them and there is too much evidence of apostasy in the episcopacy to discount them all. St. Francis didn't say that the destroyer would be an invalid Pope. He said that God would send us a destroyer who was not canonically elected. While there appear to be questions about whether or not the canon was strictly adhered to at the conclave, the fact that the Bishops present accepted the result makes Francis the valid Pope. We are not canon lawyers and as far as we know none of the canon lawyers at the conclave objected to the outcome. Even if they had objected, they knew that holding another ballot the following day wouldn't have changed the result. Nevertheless, if the vote wasn't held strictly in compliance with Canon Law, then I suppose it is possible that Pope Francis, although the valid Pope, was not canonically elected.

    Canonically elected or not, he is the Pope. We have to respect that and we do have to obey him as best we can in all things except sin or believing something contrary to the perennial teachings of the Church. Even if we were to march on Rome, he would still be Pope because only the Bishops have the authority to straighten him out and there aren't enough Bishops worthy of the office to do that. All we can do is pray, support faithful priests and steer clear of the rest.

    Incidentally, Edward Vlll didn't abdicate because he wanted to marry a Catholic. Wallis Simpson was Episcopalian. She didn't make the grade on two counts: (1) she was a commoner - an American and (2) she was a (twice) divorcee. The rest of your account of that situation seems to be fairly accurate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallis_Simpson#Early_life

    The woman Prince Charles is married to had been in a Catholic marriage. Both she and her Catholic husband remarried after their divorce.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  12. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    At this point in time, I can't think of what these things might be. More and more we are practically being forced to accept things contrary to the perennial teachings of the Church.
     
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  13. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Thanks for posting this MK.
    Sounds like a cryptic message from Pope Benedict for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
     
  14. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I don't really know what the "all things" mean. Matters of discipline like how long to fast before Communion spring to mind but I wouldn't worry about Pope Francis instituting any extra fasts. He's more the whatever you're having yourself type on the Ten Commandments but very rigid on climate change so if he tells me to swap my car for a bike I will have a crisis of conscience.
     
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  15. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Thank you Dolours.
    Yes Francis is Pope. This is not a dream.

    It is possible a future council or some other official body of the Church hierarchy with the proper authority will look into the matter and come to a different conclusion, but as of now we are bound to accept that he is the successor of St. Peter. We are not Protestants who decide these things for ourselves. Our Lord instituted the hierarchy and He expects us to respect it and to follow it in all matters but sin. It is not a choice.
     
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  16. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    ‘The Other Francis’: Cardinals, Leaders of the Church, Pope’s Relatives & Friends Share Unfiltered Accounts of Their Francis
    In Deborah Castellano Lubov’s New Book, Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Parolin’s Preface Leads Into Many Conversations

    JANUARY 11, 2018ROSA DIE ALCOLEAINTERVIEWS
    [​IMG]
    Pope And Vaticanista Deborah Castellano Lubov © L'Osservatore Romano

    The ambitious objective, stated already on the book’s cover, is to offer the reader a portrait of the “Other Francis,” namely, to tell all that has never been said about Pope Francis. Not an easy task, given the impressive amount of volumes dedicated to Francis, which already crowd the shelves of bookstores.

    The author is the American journalist – but transplanted to Rome – Deborah Castellano Lubov, Vaticanista of Zenit. “The Other Francis,” (L’Altro Francesco’) (published in Italian by the prestigious publishing house Cantagalli of Siena, but which soon will be translated into English) contains a preface by the Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, and 14 interviews with personalities of the Roman Curia (and of the Church), spread throughout the five continents, and relatives and friends of the Argentine Pontiff.

    However, not lacking in these 200 pages is interesting original news, information, revelations, and sometimes even courageous opinions about the Argentine Pope and various timely questions raised by him. Jorge Mario Bergoglio is a simple and friendly man, who likes to joke a lot, but who is also the Pope who has been able to focus the attention of all humanity on the topics most dear to him: human dignity, unbridled globalization, the distribution of wealth, the safeguarding of Creation.

    * * *

    Preface:

    Cardinal Pietro Parolin

    The Interviewees:

    Cardinal Gerhard Muller, Archbishop Georg Gaenswein, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, Cardinal George Pell, Cardinal Peter Turkson, Maria Elena Bergoglio, Cardinal Kurt Koch, Father Federico Lombardi, SJ, Patriarch F.B. Fouad Twal, Archbishop Joseph Edward Kurtz, Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier, Cardinal Charles Maung Bo, Adrian Pallarols, and Rabbi Abraham Skorka

    * * *[​IMG]

    Who is “The Other Francis” (L’Altro Francesco) to which you make reference in the title?


    A man that first of all wants to be considered and treated as a “normal” person, even if now, Cardinal Koch told me, it disappoints him that he can no longer easily agree to meet Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew at a bar in Rome’s Piazza Navona to have a cappucchino together.

    From your many interviews, one would say he is a very friendly man with quite a sense of humor . . .

    Indeed! Cardinal Dolan of New York also bore the brunt of it, because, as he told me, he is a ‘man of girth.’ Yet, he told me: “But thus, I feel immediately at ease with him,” he told me. Cardinal Dolan’s interview shares quite a few fun, heartwarming anecdotes with Francis, especially from when the Pontiff visited New York in September of 2015.

    Or Rabbi Abraham Skorka, who then became his great friend. They were in the Cathedral of Buenos Aires, after a solemn celebration. Cardinal Bergoglio made a joke to him about ‘chickens,’ the nickname used by the adversary fans to make fun of the River plate soccer players. It was a way of being ironic about that team’s losing streak, but very inappropriate in that situation. So Rabbi Skorka, a River fan, did not appreciate this at first, feeling offended. Then he understood, he says, that there was a message between the lines: “treat me without formality, like any other person!”

    How was the idea to write this book born?

    The beginning of the Bergoglio pontificate coincided, more or less, with the beginning of my activity as Vatican correspondent of Zenit. Francis attracted much attention immediately, because of all the novelties brought within and outside the Church. In this atmosphere of great excitement, for journalists used to following the Vatican’s news, I often felt the need to confront truly expert voices. Thus, many interviews came about, day after day, in doing my work, and even many friendships. Then I wondered if they would be able to share with me an unfiltered account of their view of and relationship with Francis. This is the result.

    In regard to interviews, Francis has granted many more than any other predecessor. Did you discover anything particularly interesting about these?


    Many things! Once, for instance, during one of the interviews on a plane there was talk of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI in the Vatican. “It’s like having a wise grandfather at home,” Francis said. Then, he thought about it again and right after landing in Rome, he mentioned it immediately with concern to Archbishop Gaenswein, Prefect of the Papal Household and private secretary of the Pope Emeritus: “Today, I said something a bit strong . . . I hope Benedict XVI won’t be offended!”

    Much has been said and written about the relationship between Francis and Benedict, often also with much superficiality, inventing oppositions … is it true?

    Suffice it to say what Francis’ sister said, hence a privileged source of news, said to the journalist and my friend Michael Hesemann (German author and historian, co-author of My Brother the Pope co-authored with Georg Ratzinger), whom I thank for having allowed me to include his precious interview in my book. “You owe me obedience. If you are elected, you must accept,” said Pope Ratzinger to Cardinal Bergoglio, when they met the last time before the Conclave.

    And what other interesting thing did you discover on the pre-pontificate biography of Pope Bergoglio?


    First of all that Bergoglio’s famous grandmother, being a fervent anti-Fascist, was the reason why the family felt almost constrained to leave Italy for Argentina. Then an episode, which goes back to when Jorge, having finished high school, said to his mother that he wanted to become a doctor. She was so happy that she immediately freed a small room so that he could study peacefully but, one day, she only found books of philosophy, theology and Latin. The explanation, he told her, was that he did want to become ‘a doctor,’ but one ‘of souls.’

    Who is Adrian Pallarols, the Pope’s other friend who you interviewed?

    Adrian is a famous Buenos Aires silversmith, a very dear friend of the Pope. I don’t want to ruin the surprise for the reader. I will tell you only that it was Bergoglio himself to celebrate his marriage and baptized his children. The problem with the wedding was that the parish priest, who held the course that Adrian and his wife had, was very abrupt with all. When Bergoglio called him, introducing himself as “Father Jorge,” to come to an agreement about the celebration of Adrian’s marriage, he began as usual to shout and vehemently protest, until he discovered that . . . you read the rest.

    continued...
     
  17. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    continued...

    Returning to the topic of the relationship between Francis and the mass media in general, what did you learn?

    Archbishop Gaenswein’s judgment seems important to me: the media were never so well disposed with Pope Benedict as they are today with Pope Francis. Even if Francis — I learned from the former director of the Vatican Press Office, Father Lombardi –, that Pope Francis doesn’t always appreciate journalists’ questions during air travel. Instead, he is often rather disappointed, because he doesn’t find them interesting, or because journalists ask anything that passes through their mind instead of focusing on the contents or the most significant episodes of every trip.

    It is said that the ‘normality,” the sobriety of Francis, who for instance lives in a very small space compared to the large apartments of some cardinals, brought much disarray in the Vatican.

    This is true in part, but it’s not even necessary to emphasize it. When I went to interview Cardinal Turkson in his office in his dicastery, we spoke about the greatness of the rooms: He also expressed that similarly, his residence, is large and one of his architect friends once said that in that surface a good four rooms could be made, but certainly not in a building as ancient a structure as that one. And in any case, do you know where Cardinal Turkson went to furnish his house when he arrived in Rome? IKEA!

    Francis made everyone understand thoroughly that he cannot endure adulators. He wants everyone to tell him exactly what he thinks. And then, among all the judgments and opinions expressed by various Cardinals and Bishops, is there someone that surprised you for his frankness?

    Returning to interviews on a plane, there comes to mind the Patriarch Emeritus of Jerusalem of the Latins, His Beatitude Fouad Twal. On the return flight from Poland, in July 2016, there was talk of terrorism and Islam. It’s true, he told me, that the head of the Catholic Church can’t say explicitly everything about Islam. However, according to him, it was surprising to hear the Pope explain that violence exists in all the religions, including Catholicism, and that one religion alone can’t be accused, or Cardinal Napier of Durban, South Africa, on the post-synodal Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetita. How can the African Church go about not losing her credibility? — he wondered. Now, in fact, the Church must tell Africans that she was mistaken 200 years ago, preaching that to become Christians they must abandon customs such as polygamy; because today one can go to Communion even if one has more than one wife, because one cannot turn one’s back on them.

    On the list of interviewees there are also personalities of the Church considered not very in tune with Pope Francis. Why did you want to include these voices also in the book?


    I believe that a variety of opinions and points of view is a merit, not a defect, for a book of this nature. Therefore, there is also, for instance, Cardinal Muller, who became “former” Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith precisely while the book was going to press; a man who is certainly very different from Francis in provenance, orientations, mentality. Therefore, it has all the more of an effect to hear him say what is the strongest impression Francis makes on him: It is when he embraces men and women even with a deformed face from a serious sickness, without that aversion that would be simply natural. Cardinal Muller also admits that it is certainly easy to preach love of neighbor, but difficult to practice it.

    Then there is also Cardinal Charles Maung Bo, Archbishop of Yangon, in Myanmar, certainly a country “of the periphery” for the Catholic Church, but Francis in fact decided to honor it undertaking an Apostolic Trip there?


    Not “periphery” but “periphery of peripheries,” Cardinal Bo corrected me! It’s a Church that has suffered so much, in 60 years of “inhuman” dictatorship, as he himself described it. No contact with the rest of the world, the foreign missionaries expelled overnight . . . Not only “periphery,” “but a country forgotten by the world,” he said, noting the only exception was now by the Church and now by Francis.

    https://zenit.org/articles/interviewotherfrancis/
     
  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Rest easy SG. No one can ever force you to accept something contrary to the perennial Teachings of the Church.
     
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  19. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I will be honest and say I only skimmed this article, but I have no reason to doubt much of these stories are true. This man's makeup is definitely multifaceted. I would love to see a real psychological breakdown of the Pope. I think it would shed a great deal of light upon many of the things the Church is experiencing right now. Unfortunately we probably never will.
     
  20. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Well, sadly, sin seems to be the predominant matter that we are being asked to follow now.
    What then are we expected to respect about the false shepherds?
     

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