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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    The Church is full of hard doctines SG. One of them is that we must show respect for the Pope no matter how we personally feel about him. Believe me I understand how angry you are, but just remember that Jesus is in charge. Pope Francis cannot do one thing without permission from Heaven. That does not mean everything he does is the wish of God, just that it is allowed. And since God has allowed this man to become the supreme head of His Church we must show respect until such a point as God decides his reign is done.

    Let us not be like St. Peter and take up the sword against God's plans. This is our Cross, we must take it up with humility and thanksgiving.
  2. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    This attitude is something I cannot agree with. We cannot be meek and docile with a false sense of having to show respect to a pope who is heretical/acting against the Church's teachings and simply out to destroy the Catholic Church. Our first duty is to God. We have to obey and respect God, and not someone who is practically leading many into Hell.

    Again, I believe in what St Paul said in Galatians 1:8 -
    'But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!'
    If that one is to be accursed, would God expect us to respect him?
  3. sterph

    sterph Principalities

    More germs on hands than on the tongue.
    BrianK and Carol55 like this.
  4. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Aha! There you go. Don't you see SG? By respecting the Pope you are respecting God. That is the whole point!

    Think of all of the saints who were given priors/prioress' who persecuted them. There are endless stories about this. To those whom God loves He sends hardships to. This is the path to holiness.

    But don't misrepresent what I have said. I am not saying we have to go along with anything anyone says that goes against the laws of God. Our first duty is to God...but...we must still show respect to those in authority over us. God is all about showing respect to those in authority. These two positions are not mutually exclusive.

    Think of how Cardinal Burke acts. He speaks with great assurance, great humility, great charity, but also great submission to the authority of the Pope. That does not mean however that he will submit to error. That is all I am saying we should do.
    David Healy, AED and DeGaulle like this.
  5. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    I've already said several times, and I'll say it again, we are being far too deferential towards this proven (material) heretic on the throne of Peter. Future generations with shake their head in disbelief and disgust at how we were so polite to those promoting this heterodox agenda. When you look at the early Church Fathers, and how they reacted to blatant errors among their leaders, you might realize how effete our collective response really is given the magnitude of what we face.
    SgCatholic likes this.
  6. AED

    AED Powers

    I understand exactly how you feel and what you are saying. It is a terrible tightrope we walk--holding to the Truth and defending it but also being respectful of the office of Vicar of Christ. In the Pieta prayer book there is a prayer for priests and it quotes a message given to a mystic Mutter Vogel by Jesus where He says His Heart is grieved to hear a priest scorned or insulted even if he is a bad priest. He tells her to never say a bad word about a priest but rather pray for him that God will give him the grace to change. He told her to speak only to Him about the priest for He alone will deal with him. It has always stayed in my mind and is the reason I think insulting language about PF is perhaps grieving to the Sacred Heart. So I am extremely careful and also not comfortable with any disrespect for the Pope by calling him Bergoglio. Just giving my explanation for my comment.
    DeGaulle likes this.
  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    But the early Church Father's were Bishops with authority...we are not.
    We are not even monks or nuns.
    We are on the lowest rung.
    Light, DeGaulle, Mary's child and 2 others like this.
  8. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    At the risk of knocking some foundation out from my own argument ;) I have to say that there are problems with "Mutter Vogel".


    I would not rely on anything from her in the Pieta Prayerbook. There are other problems with the book, but this is one of them.
    Mary's child, BrianK and SgCatholic like this.
  9. AED

    AED Powers

    Praetorian likes this.
  10. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Mutter Vogel was a German priest
    He wrote a book called "Mutter Vogel's Worldwide Love"
    I just googled him briefly
  11. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    AED likes this.
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Apologies then for referring to him as her.
    Thanks for the correction (y)

    By the way I was not trying to disparage Mutter Vogel, whoever that is. I was just saying that he shouldn't be placed in the "approved" category for revelations.

    I was very dismayed to learn about the prayer book as I have had one since I was a teenager and loved it very much.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  13. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Remember St. Catherine of Siena, a saint and Doctor of the Church. She was a lay woman, not a nun (only a third order Dominican). She wrote several letters to Pope Gregory XI, with very harsh criticisms and correctly admonished him. She wrote in a letter to the Pope, ‘Most Holy Father if you will not convert, please step down, renounce the papacy. I write these out of love for your person, for your eternal salvation, and for the Church.’

    Also remember what Archbishop Fulton Sheen said:

    fs save church.jpg
  14. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I did a search for Mutter Vogel a while ago. I did another quick search just now to refresh my memory and found a post on CAF from someone who said this in response to speculation that she never actually existed: https://forums.catholic.com/t/who-is-mutter-vogel/172762/2

    "She actually existed and was a member of my wife's family. She is buried at the Waldfriedhof in Munich,Germany. She devoted her life to praying for priests. There was a book written about her life called "Mutter Vogls Weltweite Liebe" first published in 1961 in Germany. Unfortunately it was not translated into English, but we have a copy."

    Editing this to say that my web search also threw up an old MOG thread where this was discussed and which prompted me to search for Mutter Vogl at that time.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
    AED, Praetorian and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  15. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    I don't know if my memory serves me correctly, but didn't we have some discussion about this before?
    Praetorian likes this.
  16. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Ooh, I saw this after my post above.
  17. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I am glad to know that info about Mutter Vogel
    I always thought she was a woman
    Don't know where the idea came from that was a priest
    Praetorian likes this.
  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Well just because there is Mutter Vogel in one part of the book doesn't mean the whole book is tainted, does it?
    Maybe the words to MV are really from Christ
    How long do we have to wait for approval if these messages have indeed been submitted?
  19. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Well, if no one ever said a bad word against the priests, the shameful abuse scandal would never have been exposed. Is that the right thing to do then?
    DeGaulle and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  20. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Hey, I sense you are getting on the offensive here
    I think we have to distinguish between factual report and just outright dogged character assassination
    SG, no offense, but you seem to be on a tangent here about wanting to have freedom to express yourself to the hierarchy about the Pope.
    Maybe you could write a letter. Maybe after you wrote it, you might not want to send it. Sometimes that happens.

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