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The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

  2. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    "For his audience with the Pope, Al-Issa was accompanied by a delegation of seven people." They would be the interior decorators measuring the windows for drapes when they move into the Vatican. Maybe also included an antiques expert to estimate how much they'll get when they flog the artwork.
    djmoforegon, garabandal and BrianK like this.
  3. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    There used to be a saying in the late 60's; "Would the last businessman leaving Britain please turn out the lights."
    We used to think that was funny at the time. You might almost say it turned out to be prophetic.

    I love your turn of phrase Dolours, and pray it does not turn out to be prophetic.
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    Bergoglio's Revolution. In Little Doses, But Irreversible
    12 nov

    > Italiano
    > English
    > Español
    > Français

    > All the articles of Settimo Cielo in English


    On the world stage, Pope Francis’s star is burning brighter than ever, now even as nuclear peacemaker between the United States and North Korea. But even within the Church he finds himself at grips with a piecemeal world war, a strange war that he himself has contributed to unleashing, absolutely convinced that it will come to a good end.

    Jorge Mario Bergoglio is unquestionably an innovator. But in method, before it can be seen in results.

    He always introduces the innovations in little doses, on the sly, perhaps in an allusive footnote, as he did with the now-famous footnote 351 of the postsynodal exhortation “Amoris Laetitia,” only to say later with candor, when questioned on one of his equally famous airborne press conferences, that he doesn’t even remember that footnote.

    And yet those few cryptic lines were enough to ignite within the Church an unprecedented conflict, with entire episcopates squaring off, in Germany in favor of the innovations and in Poland against, and so all over the world between diocese and diocese, between parish and parish, where what is at stake is not only the yes or no to communion for the divorced and remarried, but the end of the indissolubility of marriage and the admission of divorce within the Catholic Church too, as is already taking place among Protestants and Orthodox.

    There are those who are becoming alarmed over this confusion that pervades the Church. But Francis is doing nothing to put the house back into order. He is moving right along with confidence. No point in even waving to the cardinals who submit their own “doubts” and those of many to him, on capital questions of doctrine that they see under threat, and ask him to bring clarity. He lets run free the most disparate interpretations, whether conservative or progressive in the extreme, without ever explicitly condemning any of them.

    The important thing for him is “to cast the seed so that the power may be unleashed,” it is “to mix the leaven so that the power may bring growth,” words from a homily of his a few days ago at Santa Marta. And “if I get my hands dirty, thanks be to God! Because woe to those who preach under the illusion of not getting their hands dirty. These are museum curators.”

    Pascal, the philosopher and man of faith whom Francis says he wants to beatify, wrote fiery words against the Jesuits of his time, who threw into the fray their most daring ideas, so that over time they would ripen little by little and become the common opinion.

    But this is precisely what the first Jesuit pope in history is doing today: setting into motion “processes” within which he is sowing the innovations that he wants to win out sooner or later, in the most diverse fields, as for example in the judgment on Protestantism.

    In Argentina, Bergoglio unleashed terrible invectives against Luther and Calvin. But as pope he is doing the complete opposite, he does nothing but sing Luther’s praises. On a visit to the Lutheran church in Rome, when asked to say whether Catholics and Protestants may receive communion together in spite of the fact that the former believe that the bread and wine “really” become the body and blood of Christ while the latter do not, he answered yes, and then no, and then I don’t know, and then figure it out yourselves, in an ecstasy of contradictions, but in practice giving the go-ahead.

    It is the fluidity of his magisterium that is the true novelty of Francis’s pontificate. What he does not tolerate is that anyone should dare to tie it down in clear and distinct ideas, purging it of its innovative contents.

    Cardinal Gerhard L. Müller, who as prefect of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith insisted on saying that in “Amoris Laetitia” there was nothing new with respect to tradition, he summarily removed from office.

    And Cardinal Robert Sarah, who as prefect of the congregation for divine worship would like to reserve for himself full control of the translations of the Latin missal in the various languages, he publicly humiliated, requiring him to tell all the bishops himself that the pope instead is giving every national Church the freedom to translate as it likes, the embryo of a future Catholic Church no longer monolithic but federated, another of the objectives of Bergoglio, the unrelenting schemer.

    (English translation by Matthew Sherry, Ballwin, Missouri, U.S.A.)


    This commentary was published in "L'Espresso" no. 46 of 2017 on newsstands November 12, on the opinion page entitled "Settimo Cielo" entrusted to Sandro Magister.

    Here is the index of all the previous commentaries:

    > "L'Espresso" in seventh heaven
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member


    When will it all end?
  6. josephite

    josephite Powers

    In Argentina, Bergoglio unleashed terrible invectives against Luther and Calvin. But as pope he is doing the complete opposite, he does nothing but sing Luther’s praises. On a visit to the Lutheran church in Rome, when asked to say whether Catholics and Protestants may receive communion together in spite of the fact that the former believe that the bread and wine “really” become the body and blood of Christ while the latter do not, he answered yes, and then no, and then I don’t know, and then figure it out yourselves, in an ecstasy of contradictions, but in practice giving the go-ahead.

    How interesting!

    I wonder has anyone thought that maybe our poor Holy Father has a progressive pathology of a physiological medical condition that is causing his seeming change of heart, with his inability to understand the things that he previously understood?

    Dementia is an insidious disease that can first strike with memory loss being the loss of understanding of once firmly held beliefs, it can also include an inability to make up one’s mind in regard to even the simplest of decisions!
    djmoforegon likes this.
  7. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    His association with the St. Gallen group points more to his saying all the right things to make sure he didn't scupper his changes of ascending to the papacy.

    Whatever his motivation, he needs our prayers.
  8. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Lay Association Makes Public Appeal to Correct Francis
    3 minutes

    The international association Veri Catholici published on November 9 a one-page ad in the Roman edition of Il Giornale.

    It calls on cardinals and bishops “to canonically rebuke Jorge Mario Bergoglio, to assess whether his election was valid, that is to say, to examine whether he was Catholic before he was elected or whether he is now in schism with the Catholic Church”.

    The appeal refers especially to Amoris Laetitia. The group was originally founded to resist the errors of German Cardinal Walter Kasper.
  9. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I read that document, Brian, and there was something about it which gave me an uneasy feeling. It wouldn't fall into the category of speaking the truth with love. That doesn't mean the intentions of the people behind it weren't good but the harsh tone and appeal to a kind of populism doesn't reflect well on its authors and could be counterproductive. It will be more ammunition for the likes of Fr. Spadaro to accuse people worried about Pope Francis of being a lunatic fringe group.
  10. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    I actually haven't taken the time to read it, so thanks for the heads up. (I must admit I'm not reading much more than headlines in the Catholic world these days, and that not even very often.)
    Praetorian and AED like this.
  11. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    There's a link to it somewhere else on the forum. That's where I read it. I think that SGCatholic may have posted it on another thread.
    Praetorian and SgCatholic like this.
  12. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

  13. Dean

    Dean Archangels

    I believe the Pope is causing great confusion in the Church. But any article that says Jorge Mario Bergoglio instead of Pope Francis I stop reading immediately. If they have a valid point I will never get to it. He is our Pope, we need to pray for him and pray that God will make good out of all this confusion, but that is just plain disrespectful.
    maryn, djmoforegon, Tanker and 9 others like this.
  14. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Sometimes they just call him Bergoglio:(
    Praetorian likes this.
  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Yes when Our Blessed Lady starts to call our Holy Father in her messages I will start to sweat.:D:D;)
  16. AED

    AED Powers

    Very wrong and I believe it grieves the Sacred Heart.
    Booklady, gracia, Praetorian and 5 others like this.
  17. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I notice how circumspect Our Lady has been when she refers to the Church. This shows such immense wisdom and is an example to all of us.

    Also the Dubia Cardinals showed the same care. Again an example. The Pope is , after all, the Pope.

    I admit at times I find it very,very hard to keep the same circumspection and Wisdom, but its great to see from others how it should be done.:):)
    Tanker, Booklady, gracia and 7 others like this.
  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    It is the writer's not so subtle way of trying to tell us that they have already judged the Pope and stripped him of his authority and position in the Church. Something they have no right to do no matter how much they may disagree with him on certain points.

    In reality all it shows us is that the various authors of these articles are not very humble.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  19. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I am sure many have read the following article, but what is clearly absent is that "ones conscience" must be formed in the light of the Churches teachings. Following the "primacy" of "ones own conscience", formed in the light of the world is gravely wrong. Now why would the Vicar of Christ leave this out? It's called situation ethics, another grave error. Ego, is thinking ones own conscience apart from truth is objective.

    Pope reaffirms conscience as heresy debate divides church

    NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated PressNovember 11, 2017

    VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis on Saturday reaffirmed the "primacy" of using one's conscience to navigate tough moral questions in his first comments since he was publicly accused of spreading heresy by emphasizing conscience over hard and fast Catholic rules.

    Francis issued a video message to a conference organized by Italian bishops on his controversial 2016 document on family life, "The Joy of Love." The document has badly divided the Catholic Church, with some commentators warning that it risked creating a schism given its opening to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics.

    Francis told the conference that priests must inform Catholic consciences "but not replace them." And he stressed the distinction between one's conscience — where God reveals himself — and one's ego that thinks it can do as it pleases.

    "The contemporary world risks confusing the primacy of conscience, which must always be respected, with the exclusive autonomy of an individual with respect to his or her relations," Francis said.

    Francis reaffirmed the centrality of "The Joy of Love" as the church's guide to Catholic couples today trying to navigate the ups and downs of complicated family situations.

    When it was released in April 2016, "The Joy of Love" immediately sparked controversy because it cautiously opened the door to letting civilly remarried Catholics receive Communion.

    Church teaching holds that unless these Catholics obtain an annulment — a church decree declaring their first marriage invalid — they cannot receive the sacraments since they are seen as committing adultery in the eyes of the church.

    Francis didn't give these Catholics an automatic pass, but suggested that bishops and priests could do so on a case-by-case basis, with the couples' "well-formed" consciences as the guide.

    Conservatives accused the pope of sowing confusion and undermining the church's teaching on the indissolubility of marriage. Four prominent cardinals formally asked for a clarification to five "dubia," or doubts, they said had been spawned by the document.

    More recently, a group of traditionalist and conservative priests and scholars formally accused Francis of spreading heresy.

    Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, whom Francis recently removed as the Vatican's chief doctrinal watchdog, didn't join the four "dubia" cardinals or the heresy accusers. But he warned in a recent book preface that "schismatic temptations and dogmatic confusion" had been sown as a result of the debate over the document. He said such confusion was "dangerous for the unity of the church."

    Mueller sought to offer his own interpretation — that "The Joy of Love" can only be read as a continuity of the church's traditional teaching on marriage — offering what he said was his own "contribution to re-establishing peace in the church."
  20. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    In fairness to Pope Francis, he is quite orthodox here. He twice (see what I have bolded) mentions formation and also twice distinguishes conscience and its primacy from ego/autonomy, thus implying that conscience is not a licence to do what you feel like. He also stresses that conscience is from God, not the world. It puts quite a lot of onus on the individuals concerned and suggests that they should proceed with caution. I don't think that the liberal faction will be altogether overjoyed with this. It appears to be a brake, or even a rowing-back, upon the wilder interpretations of AL, perhaps in response to pressure.

    It might be extreme, but the following view of conscience can be an aid to presumption:

    "...every man’s conscience is vile and depraved
    You cannot depend on it to be your guide
    When it’s you who must keep it satisfied".
    Carol55 likes this.

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