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“The Political Pope.”

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by garabandal, May 3, 2017.

  1. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    David, do you believe that the Holy Spirit can reveal new truths, contrary to what the Church has already defined, as it pertains to doctrines?
    SgCatholic, Dolours and Mary's child like this.
  2. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    Fatima, now we have to be on the same "wavelength" as the pope or we won't get him.
  3. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    It seems to me this pope is always being misrepresented/misinterpreted/misunderstood/misread.

    Why didn't it happen with his predecessors?

    Have we all become obtuse?

    Has truth suddenly become so complex, so impenetrable that only a few gifted minds can grasp it?

    The ten commandments can be fully understood both by the brightest and the simplest minds.

    What loving father wants to confuse rather than enlighten and clarify?
  4. AED

    AED Powers

    Exactly. It ain't brain science to state the truth of the faith. Especially on marriage. Jesus spells it out very clearly. I always want to run away when I hear those wobble words like "nuance" and "dialogue" and "walk with" etc etc. brings back all the bad memories of the 70's when the Spirit of Vatican II haunted the world. Everything old is new again. :mad:
  5. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    So it appears he does think it is a kind of socialist parable. Not magic, not a miracle. The meaning seems clear.

    Maybe I'm simple-minded, or rigid or just plain stupid but I would think the One who created a billion galaxies and the laws that govern the universe wouldn't have a problem granting his Beloved Son the power to multiply a few loaves of bread.

    After all didn't our Lord say "I and the father are one"?

    Or is that also symbolic?
  6. Tanker

    Tanker Principalities

    (n):cautious: I really do not like hearing that phrase either "Spirit of Vatican II". Seems like it was license to do just about anything and then slap the Council name on it to make it palatable.
    AED likes this.
  7. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    What I was trying to say, Brian, is that the Pope's political beliefs are not important in the great scheme of things because he cannot claim infallibility on matters political. What matters is his treatment of the Deposit of Faith. Bringing political arguments and language into a discussion about his failure to safeguard the Deposit of Faith is a distraction.

    Reading the discussion about the miracle of the loaves and fishes made me smile. What struck me most about the Pope's sermon was the way he bad-mouthed the Apostles. In the Pope's opinion, the apostles' expressing concern for how people would eat when they didn't have the resources to feed the multitudes was indicative of their selfishness and unwillingness to share. There's a kind of consistency in the Pope's attitude to followers of Jesus. Even the Apostles' motives are suspect. We rigid Catholics could be in good company ;).

    I think (hope) that we all pray for the Pope. At this stage, I don't make any specific requests but just pray that God will pour an abundance of grace on the hierarchy and all members of His Church.
    Mary's child, SgCatholic and BrianK like this.
  8. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Prejudice can take the form of a prejudgment or preconceived opinion which negatively affects one’s ability to honestly examine the facts. I believe this is evident in Padraig’s (#28) and Blizzard’s(#42) posts relative to Pope Francis’ Angelus Address(#27).

    Padraig quoted the following from Pope Francis:

    'It isn’t magic, it’s a “sign”: a sign that calls for faith in God, provident Father, who does not let us go without “our daily bread”, if we know how to share it as brothers.'

    And then he concluded that in his address, the Pope denied the miraculous. Blizzard followed up with,

    So this pope says there was no "multiplication of loaves and fish". What happened was a Cuba-style "sharing of loaves" where 5,000 people shared a few loaves and fish. Just like in Cuba where every family gets an egg a week. In other words, everybody went hungry but happy and the Gospel writers wrote a bunch of lies.

    Pathetic. Why would it be so hard for the Son of God to multiply loaves of bread

    Gentlemen, I believe your accumulated opinions have now hardened into prejudices. Let’s take a closer look at what Pope Francis said on this particular occasion.

    This Sunday, the Gospel presents to us the miracle of the multiplication of loaves and fish (Mt 14:13-21). Jesus performed it along the Lake of Galilee,

    First of all, Francis calls it a miracle. Notice also the use of the noun, multiplication, which goes beyond the concept of sharing. Next, we know the multiplication of the loaves and fish wasn’t magic, and Francis refers to the Gospel term of a sign. What is wrong with that?

    Is there anywhere in the text that he highlights the miracle? Yes!

    Instead those few loaves and fish, shared and blessed by God, were enough for everyone.

    Aren’t you glad he referred to Jesus as God? And Blizzard, doesn’t everyone consist of the 5000 + people you mentioned. If five loaves and two fish can feed 5000 then a miracle has taken place.

    In reading the text carefully, Pope Francis’ concept of sharing focuses primarily on our response to the miracle story. There have been exceptions, but for the most part, Christians do not minister to the poor and needy by working signs and miracles of multiplication, but by sharing with others from the bounty God has blessed them with. Francis is calling us to be generous in our sharing. There is no sense in his address that the 5000 + were satisfied because those who had lunches shared them with those who didn’t.

    Gentlemen, on this occasion, I don’t think you read carefully. Based on Pope Francis’ previous, divisive, and regrettable statements you are too willing to jump to conclusions without careful reading. I believe such prejudgments can lead one down a path of slander and unjust castigation. Would such paths please Our Lord? Be careful.:coffee:

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
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  9. sunburst

    sunburst Archangels

    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    Mario likes this.
  10. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    "Communist" is much more than a political view:


    Our Lady of Fatima’s Antidote To Relativism
    Posted by Patti Armstrong on Monday May 8th, 2017 at 12:01 AM
    Given the accuracy of her predictions, it would be foolhardy not to follow Our Lady of Fatima’s plan for peace.

    The apparitions of Our Lady at Fatima, between May 13 and October 13, 1917 were a time and place chosen by God. That very same year, 1917, the Russian Revolution began on March 8, triggered by Karl Marx’s ideas on communism. It was the first communist revolution in history and led to killing on a scale never seen before—over 9 million.

    However, God responded at the other end of Europe. The Fatima apparitions began on May 13, 1917, during World War I (1914-1918). At the Cova de Iria — an isolated place of rocks and olive trees, near the village of Fatima in Portugal — a lady dressed all in white, more brilliant then the sun, appeared to three children watching over their sheep: Francesco and Jacinta Marto and their older cousin Lucia dos Santos. The Lady revealed herself as the Mother of God, entrusted with a message for mankind.

    Our Lady of Fatima told the children that she would see them on the 13th of every month until October. The last apparition ended with a miraculous spinning of the sun witnessed by tens of thousands.

    The Morphing of Communism

    At Fatima, the Blessed Mother gave us the choice of the fulfillment of her requests or a terrible chastisement if we remained obstinate in our sinful ways. Russia would be the instrument of chastisement.

    She warned that Russia “will scatter her errors throughout the world” but “in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph.” From that moment on, Fatima and Russia have been intertwined.

    During a recent talk at the Cosmos Club in Washington, DC reported on by Rorate Caeli, Catholic historian and author Roberto de Mattei explained that today’s relativism is a continuation of the evils of communism.

    “The term ‘errors’ is precise: the error is the denial of the truth which is preserved and taught by the Catholic Church,” he said. “Russia’s errors are those of an ideology which opposes the natural and Christian order by denying God, religion, the family and private property. This complex of errors has a name: communism…”

    According to Mattei, those in the light nourish themselves on the spirit of Fatima, while the spirit of darkness is manifested under communism, which has morphed into relativism.

    “What is certain is that in the 20th century, there are no other crimes comparable to communism for the temporal space in which it spread, for the territories it embraced, for the quality of hate that it was able to secrete,” he said. “But these crimes are consequences of errors. After the collapse of the Soviet Union these errors were as if released from the wrapping that contained them, to propagate like ideological miasma over the entire West, under the form of cultural and moral relativism.”

    Today’s relativism is rooted in the theories of materialism and Marxist evolutionism, Mattei explained, and it denies any spiritual reality. The Fatima prophecy, in which Russia would scatter her errors throughout the world, has been fulfilled, he claimed. “Nowadays, one feels almost embarrassed to say they are anti-communist,” he said. “This is communism’s great victory: that it is has gone down without shedding a drop of blood, without being put on trial, without an ideological indictment, which would condemn its memory.”

    Our Lady’s “Peace Plan”

    Our Lady of Fatima asked us for a public and solemn act of the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart, done by the Pope, in union with all the bishops of the world, to pray the rosary daily, and the practice of reparatory Communion on the first Saturdays of the month. Lucia, who became a cloistered nun, confirmed that after several attempts that did not follow Our Lady’s instructions, Russia, along with the world, was properly consecrated to the Immaculate Heart on March 25, 1984 by Pope Saint John Paul II.

    The Fatima message told us explicitly that the alternative to penance is a terrifying punishment. The path to salvation was put before us. And if we do what Our Lady asks, she will fulfill her promise that: “In the end my Immaculate Heart would triumph.”

    First Five Saturdays

    Our Lady told Sr. Lucia that she promised to assist at the hour of death with all the graces necessary for salvation all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to Confession and received Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep her company for a quarter of an hour while mediating on the mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making reparation for sins.” Everything is to be offered to make reparation for sin.

    Fulfilling Our Lady’s requests for the five First Saturdays includes:

    1. Receive our Lord in Holy Communion while in the state of grace.
    2. Recite five decades of the Rosary.
    3. Keep Mary company for at least 15 minutes while meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary.
    4. Go to Confession within the month.

    Given the accuracy of her predictions, it would be foolhardy not to follow Our Lady of Fatima’s plan for peace.
  11. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Of course I completely disagree with the official party line that Russia was "properly consecrated to the Immaculate Hearton March 25, 1984." Otherwise a decent article.
  12. padraig

    padraig New Member

    You know honestly Mario I don't think we have misunderstood what the Holy Father was saying. The difficulty,as someone else comments , is that when the Pope talks on numerous topics you can take what he is saying in several ways. Thus you can always put a gloss on it one way or the other. Thus some people take it one way some people take things another thus resulting in extreme discord and confusion.

    Compare what the Pope says to the saints such as St Padre Pio of Pietrelcina. Pope St John Paul the second or Pope St Pius x . There is never a doubt what they are saying, there are clear as stream water.

    How then to understand what Pope Francis is saying? How to make sense of it all? My own take on what Pope Francis says is that he writes straight in crooked lines. This is a terrible thing as it is not in line with the actions of the saints, with the Fathers of the Church, the Apostles and most previous Popes whose words are as clear as light. But anyway, whatever how I have come to understand what Pope Francis says is in context with all his other words and actions. He can curve the ball as much as he likes it but if his words are taken in context with all his other words and actions you can hit his curve balls when he throws them.

    I believe I hit this curve ball right on the nose. He is placing the mulitiplication of the loaves and fishes as some kind of Socialist Parable.

    A good tree gives forth good fruit, a bad tree rotten fruit.

    His curve balls don't throw me anymore. As we say in Ireland he is playing both ends against the middle. But this no longer confuses me. He has long since forfeited my trust.
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
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  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  14. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Is this a complete translation David?
    How did ZENIT get it so wrong and add so much?https://www.catholicculture.org/cul...?id=11347&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=1718009
  15. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    I give a lot of weight to @Mario in his prudence, wisdom and restraint in everything he says here, but I'm afraid that this time I must agree with you Padraig. Pope Francis used too many words and phrases from the liberal Protestants and socialist Jesuits who deny the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and the fishes to rely on other good sounding words in the text to explain this away.

    Besides, when it comes to this pope, words are cheap. Watch what he does and who he promotes, not what he says in ghost written homilies. The world never reads his homilies, but hangs on every one of his off the cuff remarks. And he knows this quite well.
  16. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    More on the deliberate confusion coming from Rome:

    On the Validity of Pope Francis' Election & A Reflection on Rigidity

    They also swear not to form groups to
    intervene in the election.
    An article was published a few months ago on Bishop Rene Gradica's website. It's long, but well worth reading. Bishop Gracida prefaced the article with this:
    John J. Aréchiga is known to me to be a researcher of exceptional ability. For some time I have read the results of his research and at my urging he has agreed to allow me to publish several of his essays. This essay addresses a matter of critical importance to the Roman Catholic Church at this moment in its history. I publish this essay in the hope that it will contribute to the efforts of persons in the Church in authority who have the power to find solutions to the problems that currently afflict the Church. +Rene Henry Gracida, Bishop Emeritus of Corpus Christi
    Election of Pope Francis Pursuant to Universi Dominici Gregis

    By John J. Aréchiga 27 March 2017
    “My people have been a lost flock: their shepherds have caused them to go astray and have made them wander in the mountains. They have gone from the mountain to the hill: they have forgotten their resting place.” (Douay-Rheims translation, Old Testament, Jeremiah 50:6)
    “According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they [i.e., Christian Faithful] have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.” (1983 CIC 212 §3)
    The March 13, 2013, papal election of Jorge Mario Cardinal Bergoglio (Pope Francis) is arguably a high point in an ongoing MODERNIST conspiracy and this commentary will establish that Bergoglio’s (Pope Francis) papal election is invalid.
    Continued at Bishop Gracida's website....
    Note the portion of the article that describes the conspiracy of the Sankt-Gallen Group to elect Bergoglio and the "shadow council" that met in Rome to manipulate the outcome on the Extraordinary Synod on the Family. We live in times when many Judases occupy high positions in the Church. I wonder how many have Masonic links. Did these men who were part of the group and also members of the College of Cardinals violate the oath of secrecy they took at the beginning of the papal conclave?
    We must pray and fast for Holy Mother Church and continue to be faithful to her doctrines. And never mix up doctrine and discipline as Pope Francis so often does when he talks about rigidity. Without defining what he means by rigidity, Francis can easily confuse Catholics into believing that upholding doctrine is an example of "rigidity" that is sinful. He mentioned the loosening of the fast rules by Pope Pius XII in a December homily without saying it was a change in Church discipline not a doctrine. In fact, he treated discipline and doctrine as identical when he criticized the chief priests who said, "our discipline, our doctrine say this can’t be done!" The pope constantly confuses in this way when he speaks about rigidity as he did in his daily Mass homily on May 5th. He talked about St. Paul persecuting the Lord, "with the zeal of the law." Now from these statements would you not be led to believe that the law is bad and that the laws of discipline and the laws of doctrine are the same? If I were a poorly catechized Catholic, I certainly would. But they are not!
    So what's the difference? Fr. John Hardon defines doctrine in his Catholic Dictionary as:
    Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed..., or a theological conclusion..., or part of the natural law....what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. This teaching may be done either solemnly in ex cathedra pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church's magisterium or teaching authority. Dogmas are those doctrines which the Church proposes for belief as formally revealed by God. We MUST BELIEVE the dogmas and doctrines of the Church which are God's laws.

    Discipline, on the other hand, is an ecclesiastical law made by men:
    An ordinance issued by legitimate authority in the Catholic Church. The legislators for the entire Church are the Roman Pontiff alone, or the Pope through the Roman Curia, or an ecumenical council together with the Pope; the bishops for their individual dioceses, or conferences of bishops for the territories under their jurisdiction....Every baptized person, even if one is not a professed Catholic, is subject to ecclesiastical laws except in such cases as are indicated in the law. But these are Church laws that can be changed; not unchangeable doctrine or dogma. The rules for fasting fall under the category of Church discipline, the age of First Communion, etc. They can and have been changed. And, in fact, remember when the pharisees criticized the apostles for working on the Sabbath when they picked wheat kernels to eat? Jesus made it clear that the "Sabbath was made for man; not man for the Sabbath." The hundreds of rules relating to food and purifying utensils and beds and kettles were Jewish disciplines, not dogma.

    The Ten Commandments, on the other hand, are dogma formally revealed by God to Moses. They cannot be changed. Jesus, in fact, was more rigid on them than the Pharisees. Remember when he told them that Moses allowed divorce because of the "hardness of your hearts?" He made it clear that God made marriage indissoluble and clearly stated that man may not divide what God has joined. He raised the bar on marriage to a more rigid standard.

    In fact, Christ Himself was totally "rigid" on dogmatic truths. Remember when he said, "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17) Was Christ being rigid? Yes. Is being rigid about truth sinful or proof of mental illness? Of course not! We are called to be rigid when we proclaim the truth. Is a mathematician rigid when he says 2 + 2 = 4?

    So we must proclaim the truth; but we also are called to proclaim the truth in charity.
    We are called to build our houses on rigid rock, not shifting sand. If you are rigid on dogmatic truth, you are following the Master. You are like the martyrs who refused to burn a pinch of incense to false gods when threatened by tyrants. You are like the saints who refused to tickle ears to win followers through human respect.

    When you are called rigid for speaking the truth in love, have no fear. Shake the dust of the relativists from your feet and continue to embrace the dogma of the Church. And remember this saying which Pope Francis appears to have forgotten:
    In essential things unity

    In non-essential things freedom

    In all things charity.
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  17. AED

    AED Powers

    I understand where you are coming from Mario. You are trying to be prudent in charity but honestly that interpretation of the loaves and fishes goes back to those deconstructionist days of Vatican II. Believe me I heard it all--more than once from priests and nuns. No miracle except the miracle of everyone sharing what they had. Balderdash!! Why then did our Lord make specific reference to his multiplying the loaves and fishes? When he told the crowd they followed him because they wanted to be fed. And went on to speak of The Bread Of Life. What disturbs me quite frankly is the subtle way PF threads this interpretation into his homily. My radar starts flashing.
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  18. AED

    AED Powers

    Thanks Brian. Bishop Gracida is a heavy hitter. I listen when he speaks. This article is in line with other well researched views. It is frightening and unpleasant and even dangerous to speculate in this way but the evidence is hard to ignore. May God save us for His Name's Sake.
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  19. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Indeed, Sodomy is now being promoted at the highest levels within the hierarchy and many who support it are being nominated into Cardinals by Pope Francis. The article posted by Padraig is just one of many that demonstrate this new found love of those who actively promote Sodomy. If no other serious sin wakes true Christians up, it should be this one in support of Sodomy.

    For those who missed an earlier post on this, I will share with you and ecourage you to read the newly released book, The Book of Gomorrah.
    Pope Francis and his progressive agenda and liberal choices to appoint more social justice progressive minded liberals into the hierarchy of the Church will not stand. God will not be mocked. God's truth twisting will not be tolerated much longer and he surely will not let Satan prevail against his Church. I do agree that if God sat back and became indifferent to his Church, under Pope Francis, it would take on a whole new dynamic look and feel and both the liturgy and the doctrines would take a back seat to Satan's delight. I am reading a book now called, The Book of Gomorrah. It is based on St. Peter Damian's struggle against Ecclesiastical corruption at the turn of the previous millennium. Boy do we ever need a St. Peter Damian today! Back in his time popes, cardinals, bishops and priests were as corrupt sexually, spiritually and morally as ever in the history of the Church. Sodomy and sex was practiced by many of them a the highest levels within the Church. People today, even on this forum, seem to think this is above the Church clergy. Like somehow our modern hierarchy to the very top is exempt from this type of evil. Well for those who think this way, I highly suggest you get this book for a measly $10 and wake up. It has happened before and it is happening now!!! Sodomy in the Church and in the world is progressing at lightening pace.
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
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  20. AED

    AED Powers

    Isn't it frightening to think that this scourge has afflicted the Church through time? It is such a mark of diabolical. The difference now is that people are being conditioned to accept it. Unheard of even in pagan times.
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