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The (Jesuit) Church of the Future

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Dolours, Feb 1, 2018.

  1. josephite

    josephite Powers

    Ahh........ Catholic Education!

    I have personal experience with this "oxymoron!"

    My own children were subjected to rubbish theology and heresy!, while experiencing a 'catholic education?!', it would curl your toenails to know the details, suffice to say I spoke to and wrote many a letter to principals, religious education co-ordinators and priests over this sad period in my life!
    Carol55 and Dolours like this.
  2. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I reckon that many a Catholic parent is wondering when did the Church stop believing in original sin, Adam & Eve, Satan, Redemption, and the Bible being the inerrant word of God. What kind of God would institute a Church, promise to be with it until the end and then let it get so much wrong for the best part of 2,000 years? Fancy God letting all those martyrs suffer and die for a mistaken understanding of Him.

    Have you noticed that all of these Cosmic Christ preachers skip over the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ when waxing lyrical about the Omega stage of evolution?
    DeGaulle, josephite, sterph and 3 others like this.
  3. josephite

    josephite Powers

    True, there is not a word about an antichrist because that would cut to their bone! Poignantly there is neither a word about the hell which Jesus personally spoke of, nor is there a word of the evil spirits which Christ dispels.

    In fact they would not dare approach the Incarnation, the Cross, the Redemptive Suffering nor the Resurrection! Because none of this fits into their ideology!
    It is a new theology! not based on the scriptural Jesus nor on the historic Jesus Christ.

    In a way we are safe! They have no answers!

    But of course 'having no answers' does not matter today. As most people are prepared to follow a feel good philosophy and so we may not be safe!

    We must pray!
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  4. AED

    AED Powers

    Sadly there are many nuns who have joined the "synagogue if satan" and there are many parents who are still too trusting. They don't know because they aren't looking. In some cases it's more cultural than spiritual in sending a child to a do called catholic college. A letter should be written to Archbishop Chaput however.
    DeGaulle, josephite, Dolours and 2 others like this.
  5. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    The problem comes when one accepts rationalism and throws out this higher law that exists we by default accept all that develops from it. Such as men like Mussolini. Sounds great eh?

    “If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and those who claim to be the bearers of objective immortal truth, then there is nothing more relativistic than Fascist attitudes and activity. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, we Fascists conclude that we have the right to create our own ideology and to enforce it with all the energy of which we are capable.”

    Benito Mussolini

    The Fascist Decalogue


    1. Know that the Fascist and in particular the soldier, must not believe in perpetual peace.
    2. Days of imprisonment are always deserved.
    3. The nation serves even as a sentinel over a can of petrol.
    4. A companion must be a brother, first, because he lives with you, and secondly because he thinks like you.
    5. The rifle and the cartridge belt, and the rest, are confided to you not to rust in leisure, but to be preserved in war.
    6. Do not ever say "The Government will pay . . . " because it is you who pay; and the Government is that which you willed to have, and for which you put on a uniform.
    7. Discipline is the soul of armies; without it there are no soldiers, only confusion and defeat.
    8. Mussolini is always right.
    9. For a volunteer there are no extenuating circumstances when he is disobedient.
    10. One thing must be dear to you above all: the life of the Duce.
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  6. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    We know it isn't a Mass. They know it too but they will keep plugging away until it is accepted as a valid Mass and they know their chances have never been better than now under the Francis papacy.

    Franciscan Fr. Richard Rohr (a big hit with Universalist "Catholics", New Agers and those who like to call themselves spiritual but not religious) is also a fan of Teilhard's Mass. Here's how he described it in an interview with a Diocesan priest from New Jersey - a Monseignor no less who I think did a stint lecturing in Notre Dame, that other bastion of "Catholic" education. If you can't stomach an entire video of what the interviewing priest describes as his humility, go to about the 19:01 mark. If you do have the patience to sit through the video from the start, you might want to bear this in mind: that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". These New Age Catholics like to pick and choose from Sacred Scripture and the Church fathers whatever appears to support their beliefs and discard as human spin what they don't like.

    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  7. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    The previous video was Fr. Rohr speaking to a Catholic audience. Now, here he is speaking to a different gathering, consistent with reports of the type of knowledge (or unknowing?) he shares at his retreat centre or foundation or whatever he calls his set-up in New Mexico. See the contrast? When speaking to Protestant denominations, Fr. Rohr softens them up by telling them it wasn't their fault they lost the spirituality of the Cosmic Christ because they were an offshoot of Roman Catholicism which had already lost its way (apart from the Franciscans). He tailors the message to suit the audience but never, ever badmouths Eastern religions, especially Buddhism. Clearly, whatever bits of Christianity are included in the One World Religion, it will include very little of the Deposit of Faith handed down to us through the Church instituted by Jesus and to which Jesus promised the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Would I be too much of a cynic to suggest that he's making sure he'll be invited back to Google? I'm blown away by his humility, openness to the "other" and his stress on the negative consequences of judging others :rolleyes:.

    The new mantra of enlightened Catholics is our need to develop an "adult" or "grown-up" spirituality. Maybe they think "mature" would be too complex a word for us dimwitted Catholics.

    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  8. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Nietszche's Will to Power. Nazism was another expression of it. We see where it got us.

    GK Chesterton saw the dangers of rationalism. He could see that insanity was not the losing of reason, but the losing of everything else but reason. One must start with the right premises. The first of these is Revelation. Lose this first premise and one will get lost in a sea of plausible, but false, possibilities. This is the futile path upon which this apostate 'priest' is roaring ahead. God help him, it is the road to perdition.
    AED likes this.
  9. josephite

    josephite Powers

    Guess What Dolours I found a lot of what he is preaching beautiful and right on target!

    However, in his deliberations which differ with traditional catholic beliefs, there is so much room for error and sadly many tantalising titbits to entice one to remove themselves from truth entirely!

    I suppose the danger of his fundamental thinking is that............ we can separate some of the teachings of Jesus from other teachings of Jesus and this is where, I believe his flaw resides!

    He states early in the video that Jesus only came on the scene 2000 years ago but that 'the Christ' existed from the begnning which he estimates as being 14,000,000 years ago! really? .................................................... so even His Christ it seems, has a beginning and has not existed from an eternity?!

    So......is he saying that Jesus is not Divine?

    His distinctions are very strange! Is he saying that Jesus is Divine only in a cosmic vision???

    There is so much more I wish to comment on but it is late here and I have to work tomorrow, so I will just state that I think Fr. Rohr believes that the church fathers have mixed up truth by employing the absurdity that Jesus taught universalism of everything and yet the catholic church deviated from this over the first few centuries!

    This is not true, in my beliefs as a Catholic, I have always believed that the Catholic Church has always taught that 'God Incarnate' "Jesus" gave us the truth of universal oneness or as I like to call it "the Glory of God in everything"! however there are conditions that attain 'universal oneness'

    That is.......... there are certain parameters whereby 'universal oneness' can be obtained

    It is the age old knowledge that there is a difference between good and evil! and so Good versus Evil is the primary distinction one must employ when considering the paramont of 'universal oneness'!

    Evil was never a part of Gods plan! even in the beginning!

    And this fact is stated in the old testament and personally given to us by God himself in the person of Jesus "the Christ", in the new testament.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  10. AED

    AED Powers

    He has been tainted by the heterodox teaching of Teilhard. As I read this claim about the “cosmic” Christ I immediately thought of St John’s powerful words as absolute rebuttal to this diabolical confusion. “ in the beginning was theWord and the Word was with God and the Word was God...” the second Person of the Blessed Trinity is was and always will be God incarnate. Poor man. Hoodwinked. But his talks are dangerous. Pernicious.
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  11. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Nothing is more dangerous than the half-truth, the lie which carries a juicy, wriggly, attractive little piece of truth in order to hook the unwary.

    "Universal oneness" is a term I'd be suspicious of. Very associated with pantheism.

    There is a strict differentiation between God and His creation. God Is. Everything else, He created out of nothing. Those of goodwill hope to be as close to God as possible, to contemplate the Beatific Vision, but not to be part of Him. He is Other, and entirely complete in Himself. He lacks nothing. He granted being to His creation, not from any lack in Himself, but purely out of Love. Our being is due to a complete, pure Act of Divine Generosity. We creatures did nothing to earn it or to cause it to come about. Before we came into being, we were nothing. Nothingness is wholly devoid of will, desire and power. As I understand it, the Teilhardists have a notion that mankind is some kind of a partner with God in the process of creation. There seems to be some idea that we evolve in tandem to this 'Omega Point'. This would imply that God is not omnipotent or omniscient, nor eternal (no being that undergoes change in time can be defined as eternal). God would be dependent on us and be incomplete without us. When one scrapes away the scientistic mumbo-jumbo and the post-Christian sentimentality, it becomes clear that Rohr is nothing more than an old-fashioned pagan believer in a Zeus-like god, a so-called divinity who is trapped in the universe and history, just like the rest of us.
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  12. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    He's good at selling his message but the message seems to vary depending on the audience. He's a big fan of Thomas Merton who also was a fan of Buddhism. Having watched a bunch of his videos, the only consistent message I get from him is that all non-Christian spirituality is good and anything Christian which doesn't include the non-Christian variety is incomplete. He doesn't tell us how he can be so certain that the "god" he is communing with in his Buddhist spirituality is Jesus if that spirit is leading him to be so disparaging of the Church founded by Jesus. Whatever spirit Thomas Merton was communing with seems to have turned him into a pain in the rear end of his superiors. It also led him to having some kind of romantic relationship with a nurse - a relationship which wasn't exactly compliant with his vow of celibacy. According to one newspaper report I read, he even tried phoning her when she was setting off on her honeymoon. He died shortly afterwards in rather peculiar circumstances.

    They like to portray all this as some kind of spiritual progress but the more I read and see, the more it looks like they are regressing into paganism and bringing with them the bits about Jesus that they like. It's a bit like Fr. James Martin's version of Ignatian spirituality which could have Jesus telling a priest it's ok to escape martyrdom by denying Him so the can live to convert more people. Without Jesus along for the ride, they would find it harder to hang on to the Catholic label which opens quite a few doors for them.

    Fr. Rohr likes to claim John Duns Scotus as a kind of role model. Sr. Whatshername also cites John Duns Scotus. I suppose they believe that lifting a few quotes from Saints or Blesseds lends validity to their beliefs. Who was it said that that every heresy contains some truth? John Duns Scotus did say that Jesus would have come whether or not mankind needed redemption but I can find nothing to validate the Franciscan Sister's mocking the belief in Adam and Eve or original sin. Neither can I find anything to suggest that John Duns Scotus shared Fr. Rohr's disdain for organised religion, especially Catholicism.

    Maybe I'm wrong and they're all saints in the making. Must be my adolescent spirituality.

    Pope John Paul, who beatified Duns Scotus, was concerned enough about this fashion for New Age or Eastern non-Christian spirituality to warn people about it, including the Hindu/Buddhist type of exploration of self. Perhaps it was trending in the monasteries and seminaries. I get the impression that the Bl. Duns Scotus quoted by Pope Benedict in this Apostolic letter might have been rather more charitable than Fr. Rohr when speaking about the Catholic Church and religion: https://w2.vatican.va/content/bened...ments/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20081028_duns-scoto.html Other than that interview with the priest, the only time Fr. Rohr mentioned any sacrament of the Church in any of the videos I watched was his sneering reference to remarried Catholics being required to have their first marriage annulled before presenting themselves for Holy Communion.

    In one video, Fr. Rohr spoke rather disparagingly about how the Christian message had been somehow distorted by the Church led by white, European, mostly celibate men and their doctrines. As a Catholic, it would be interesting to see if he ever uses the pronoun "our" when referring to the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic faith. For all his depiction of himself and his spirituality as all-encompassing tolerance, what I see is a harsh, bitter judge of people whose spirituality could well have been every bit as beneficial as what he is promoting - perhaps more so because they weren't promoting belief systems which downgrade Jesus to some kind of guru.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  13. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    It is precisely paganism and a big soul killing dose of mortal sin as well. What part of have no God's before me does this mans teachings not violate?

    Next it will be hanging skulls and animal parts from trees while claiming we are all worshiping the same God. Pass the peace pipe! These people are idiots.
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  14. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Rohr's response to our objections would be to dismiss us as judgemental, or even racist, I'd bet.

    The Church is now being heretically distorted by mostly white, supposedly celibate, European men with their New Age doctrines. Ironically, the best and most articulate defenders of the true faith come from sub-Saharan Africa. This is also the case with several Protestant denominations, most particularly the Anglican Church.
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  15. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Recent reports from Mianmar (Burma), or whatever they're calling it this week, show that there's more to Buddhism than a cuddly Dalai Llama.
  16. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    He also likes celtic spirituality. I'm sure our Tourist Board could arrange a hallowe'en tour of fairy trees for him and his spiritual buddies (buddhas?). Some new agers like to visit Skellig and tune into the "energy" in the old monastic stone cells although he might need to travel by broomstick if the sea is choppy. Maybe they could hook up with the druids at Newgrange around midsummer. Endless opportunities to connect with Celtic spirituality here. We're in sore need of another St. Patrick.
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  17. AED

    AED Powers

    That old canard! The pure early Church was corrupted....YAWN. Heretics have been claiming that for years--centuries. It is the favorite fig leaf for pernicious heresy. The earliest Church fathers up to present day faithful Church teachers have preached the same Church. Innovators are the ones creating a false corrupted church.
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  18. AED

    AED Powers

    You have a delicious sense of irony Dolours. I enjoy it!
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  19. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Not all of them. The Franciscans were the real deal and the early Church was more tolerant of minority "spirituality".
  20. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    My mother took a month long trip to the UK for precisely this reason.

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