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The good cohabitors and the bad cohabitors.

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by garabandal, Sep 21, 2016.

  1. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    “Hence it can no longer simply be said that all those in any ‘irregular’ situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace'. AL301

    (Ambiguous statement in my opinion)

    One might conclude from the above statement in AL that the 'irregular situation' can be applied to both heterosexual and homosexual cohabitation. The phrase 'any irregular situation' covers a broad spectrum.

    Pope Francis argues that it is possible for some (or even most?) couples in "irregular relationships" to be in a state of grace so there must be a group of people who we can label as the 'innocent or good "cohabitors" (for want of a better phrase!) & homosexual 'couples', those in a state of grace are 'subjective good cohabitors' so allowed to receive communion.

    The Pope did not say that everyone in an irregular union was in a state of grace.

    That must mean then there must be a second group --- the 'guilty/bad cohabitors/homosexual couples' who live in actual mortal sin who are not allowed to receive communion (if they persist in their illegitimate living together).

    How on earth does one distinguish between the two groups? Who makes the judgement call that a couple in an irregular relationship can or cannot receive the Eucharist?

    Can you see the problems that such an ambiguous phrase creates?
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
    josephite likes this.
  2. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Cardinal Schonborn.

    The complexity of family situations, which goes far beyond what was customary in our Western societies even a few decades ago, has made it necessary to look in a more nuanced way at the complexity of these situations. To a greater degree than in the past, the objective situation of a person does not tell us everything about that person in relation to God and in relation to the church. This evolution compels us urgently to rethink what we meant when we spoke of objective situations of sin. And this implicitly entails a homogeneous evolution in the understanding and in the expression of the doctrine.
  3. josephite

    josephite Powers

    About 15 years ago I had a good Catholic neighbour who's twin Brother is a missionary priest in Africa, I can't remember where, I think it's Zimbabwe, Anyway about every six months she would receive a letter from him and I was privileged to be able to hear what it was like for him. To cut a long story short; in Africa where he was stationed, he had a massive amount of territory to cover and he was just one of, I think, two priests for that territory.

    They had very little in the way of church buildings and they travelled long distances with heaps of supplies of petrol, food and everything, to say mass and to baptise to hear confessions and to celebrate marriages in very remote locations. This meant that in most locations of this large territory the African people would only have the Priest for a very short time! The Holy sacrifice of the Mass is offered about once every three months in most small villages, sometimes out in the open, however the amount of people that showed up for Mass were in the hundreds or thousands from surrounding areas and countrysides and most people came by foot, walking long distances, which could take them a day or more to be there for the mass!.

    I have often thought.... 'these good people make such stupendous sacrifices to get to mass and suffer the deprivation of not having the Blessed Eucharist in their midst for months and also think 'what if a young man and women wanted to get married and the priest could not get there to celebrate mass or celebrate their marriage for months possibly for years, due to floods, car brake downs or any number of reasons!' Some people suffer many problems!

    Also I was surprised to find out from a young Philippino Priest just recently that in the Philippines a marriage preformed by a Catholic priest is not recognised by the state or country as a valid marriage! the couple have to have a civil ceremony to be recognised as married by law!

    If the couple are first married in the catholic church they then have to get married in civil ceremony to be recognised by the law of the country "as married" and it is a very poor country.

    So many countries have so many difficulties that I for one was not aware of.
    DivineMercy and Pray4peace like this.
  4. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    As an oldster in the USA, I can tell you that State & Federal Laws militate against "Older People" getting Married and finding it "better" just to cohabitate. No ... I don't ... unless you count Sheba my little Dog:LOL:
    Social Security, Union/Company/Military Survivor Benefits & State Laws .... all make it problematical when considering Holy Matrimony in the "Golden Years".:( The number of Folks I know in this situation is considerable! Celibacy & Being Alone is NOT the Normal Human Condition and those who think otherwise .. please read Genesis ... and NO!.. I don't have any answers to the Current Situation ... except.... Jesus I Trust in YOU!!

  5. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    In reality all of these people (the cohabitors) should be called to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

    This new novel teaching accepts that it is all right for 'Christians' to live like pagans within the shadows or darkness of sin.

    The call today is to follow Our Lady's messages in Medjugorje in rejecting the ways of paganism that have crept into the lives of Christians and believers. To “leave evil and choose good.”

    “…Medjugorje is primarily about conversion and changing one’s pagan, unbelieving ways. Because Our Lady is coming into a world filled with darkness to bring it to the Light of the Gospel…”
  6. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Complex theology from a cardinal that offers no real solutions to the crisis we face.

    Compare this with the simplicity of our Lady, which offers the solution to the current crisis in the Church and the world.

    September 25, 1998:

    “…I call you to become my witnesses by living the faith of your fathers. Little children, you seek signs and messages and do not see that, with every morning sunrise, God calls you to convert and to return to the way of truth and salvation…”
    Dolours likes this.
  7. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    September 25, 1998:

    “…I call you to become my witnesses by living the faith of your fathers. Little children, you seek signs and messages and do not see that, with every morning sunrise, God calls you to convert and to return to the way of truth and salvation…”

    Yes, garabandal, a beautiful and profound message from Our Lady in Medjugorje but I find it difficult to stomach your use of this message in your continuing series of posts criticizing the Pope and the Cardinal who does most to promote the Medjugorje messages. I suggest, instead, that you take note of Our Lady's words and try to take them to heart.
  8. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    I question certain ambiguous passages in Amoris Laetitia and I have a right to do so as a Catholic because ambiguity leads to confusion.

    This does not make me a 'critic' of Pope Francis as you claim.

    Even the secular world are discussing AL and the various interpretations that can be applied to it.

    But you want to silence me on this forum!

    Seems to me that people like you want censorship because you cannot 'stomach' discussion.

    Rather bizarre.
    Heidi likes this.
  9. Serena

    Serena Angels

    Personally, I don't find it so ambiguous what the pope says when he states that, “... it can no longer simply be said that all those in any ‘irregular’ situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace'. AL301
    because if cohabiting couples live like brother and sister, or sister and sister, living celibate, sacramental lives and who adhere to Church doctrine and teaching, by not engaging in sexual acts outside the sacrament of marriage, then how can we state they are living in a state of mortal sin? In fact, you might be surprised by the amount of people who are in so called 'legitimate' unions who could be living in a state of mortal sin. We cannot paint all those in irregular unions as being in a sinful state. Nothing ambiguous about that.
    davidtlig likes this.
  10. picadillo

    picadillo Powers


    Maybe you know a lot of people who are living like this, God bless them. I know of no one who lives like this. If this is no change then why even talk about it. How about the evils of sexual perversion and abortion. Oops, not supposed to talk about those things in the new Papa Francis church.
  11. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    AL is basically the attack on the family that our Lady has been warning us about in many apparitions. After all is said and done, you have to ask yourself, why get married?

    4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
  12. Serena

    Serena Angels

    I know of one couple (who are of a homosexual orientation). They are committed to their faith and who live very simple lives. They do not draw attention to their living arrangements, neither do they refer to each other as a couple, but friends. They support the Churches' stance on homosexuality, and indeed I've even witnessed them defend it when debate about it has arisen in conversation....so yes there are people who live like this in our world. Maybe you don't know of couples like this because they try to live discreetly, not to cause scandal or draw attention to themselves. They carry there crosses quietly.
    davidtlig, Dean and picadillo like this.
  13. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Have you read Amaoris Laetitia? I have read it several times. The Pope is speaking of cohabiting couples who are having sexual relations.

    The Church possesses a solid body of reflection concerning mitigating factors and situations. Hence it is can no longer simply be said that all those in any “irregular” situation are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace. More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values”,339 or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin. As the Synod Fathers put it, “factors may exist which limit the ability to make a decision”.340

    I’ve seen a lot of fidelity in these cohabitations, and I am sure that this is a real marriage, they have the grace of a real marriage because of their fidelity,” he said.
    Pope Francis
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    SgCatholic and picadillo like this.
  14. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    God bless them. But hasn't that always been church teaching? I don't understand the pope's new teaching or emphasis. Is it, we love the sinner more now than before but we still hate the sin? Or, just don't talk about the sin or I will call you a hypocrite or pharisee?
    SgCatholic likes this.
  15. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Francesco Forgione (Padre Pio) understood at 7 years old the spiritual dangers of cohabitation.

    The teacher who was at first chosen for little Francesco was not a success and when we consider the character of the small pupil it is easy to understand. Don Domenico Tizzani had been relieved of his duties as a parish priest because he had ignored his vows of celibacy. Francesco’s mind seemed closed to all knowledge. This annoyed the ex priest who complained that he was wasting his time – and he finally went to Francesco’s mother and told her that her son had no brain for book learning. When Francesco was told this, the usually gentle and silent lad flared up in great indignation: "My head is no good? You mean his head is no good – he is living in sin in his own house". Francesco was only seven at the time but his horror of sin was so great that he could detect its presence, innocent as he was and that presence seemed to paralyze his faculties.

    Francesco’s parents got him another tutor and he flourished.

    A consoling sequel to this whole episode is that Dom Dominenco later repented of his sins and died anointed in the arms of his former pupil, Padre Pio of Pietrelicina.

    Padre Pio: The Stigmatist

    By Rev. Fr. Charles Mortimer Carty
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    SgCatholic, picadillo and josephite like this.
  16. Serena

    Serena Angels

    I understand what you are saying and I can see your worries, but I believe the people who interpret AL in a more liberal way, are the people who want to excuse their sinful lifestyles. I can still understand where the pope is coming from. We cannot condemn people who through ignorance or poor catholic formation live in these irregular unions. We must remember only God can search the secret emotions of the heart. By our lives and our example maybe we can help bring our broken brothers and sisters to the fullness of the truth of living authentic Christian lives and embracing the truths of the faith.
    I believe the Mary Magdalen's and the prodigal sons of this world would most welcome the words spoken in AL.
    davidtlig likes this.
  17. Jackie

    Jackie Archangels

    Am I wrong for reminding my brother-in-law (in his 60s) who is a widower and lives like this, telling him fornication is a mortal sin? What happened to courting and marriage? One of his excuses is, whoever his latest girlfriend, she and or my brother-in-law would lose their Social Security benefit if they married. Who cares, what about their souls!! The many Baby Boomers doing this, Florida and Arizona are going to be struck!

    He doesn't tell me exactly, maybe they are not having sex but they live as if they are married, cohabitors and he is now on his third live-in since my sister died. He's fine, no, I don't think so. I ask, as long as you do not consummate, this cohabitating is a venial sin? o_O

    There's no intimacy when you sleep in the same bed, right.
    picadillo likes this.
  18. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    I'm sorry but everyone went gaga when Mark Mallett wrote his "spin" piece that the pope looks at the world as a "field hospital." You are simply using that as an excuse. Hasn't the world always been a "field hospital"?

    Introduction: In Matthew 9:37 Jesus said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few."

    Sorry, always been like that.
    SgCatholic likes this.
  19. josephite

    josephite Powers

    It's Padre Pio Feast Day here in Australia!

    During Mass I had the distinct impression Padre Pio was standing beside the tabernacle. Maybe I've just got a vivid imagination!

    Dear St Padre Pio Pray for us all on the MOG forum. We love you very much and need your prayers!
    Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us
    Dolours likes this.

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