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"The Dictator Pope": Mysterious New Book Looks "Behind the Mask" of Francis

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by BrianK, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. padraig

    padraig New Member


    “The future of the Church can and will issue from those whose roots are deep and who live from the pure fullness of their faith. It will not issue from those who accommodate themselves merely to the passing moment or from those who merely criticize others and assume that they themselves are infallible measuring rods; nor will it issue from those who take the easier road, who sidestep the passion of faith, declaring false and obsolete, tyrannous and legalistic, all that makes demands upon men, that hurts them and compels them to sacrifice themselves. To put this more positively: The future of the Church, once again as always, will be reshaped by saints, by men, that is, whose minds probe deeper than the slogans of the day, who see more than others see, because their lives embrace a wider reality. Unselfishness, which makes men free, is attained only through the patience of small daily acts of self-denial. By this daily passion, which alone reveals to a man in how many ways he is enslaved by his own ego, by this daily passion and by it alone, a man’s eyes are slowly opened. He sees only to the extent that he has lived and suffered. If today we are scarcely able any longer to become aware of God, that is because we find it so easy to evade ourselves, to flee from the depths of our being by means of the narcotic of some pleasure or other. Thus our own interior depths remain closed to us. If it is true that a man can see only with his heart, then how blind we are!

    “How does all this affect the problem we are examining? It means that the big talk of those who prophesy a Church without God and without faith is all empty chatter. We have no need of a Church that celebrates the cult of action in political prayers. It is utterly superfluous. Therefore, it will destroy itself. What will remain is the Church of Jesus Christ, the Church that believes in the God who has become man and promises us life beyond death. The kind of priest who is no more than a social worker can be replaced by the psychotherapist and other specialists; but the priest who is no specialist, who does not stand on the [sidelines], watching the game, giving official advice, but in the name of God places himself at the disposal of man, who is beside them in their sorrows, in their joys, in their hope and in their fear, such a priest will certainly be needed in the future.

    “Let us go a step farther. From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge — a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so it will lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, it will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, it will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly it will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Along-side this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize the sacraments as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.

    “The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed. One may predict that all of this will take time. The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain — to the renewal of the nineteenth century. But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

    “And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. It may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but it will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.

    Don_D likes this.
  2. padraig

    padraig New Member

    This is funny:D:D

  3. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    It is funny, and there are some other clips as well that peaked my interest so I tried watching that show but after only 20 minutes it became so clear that the entire premise is to mock the Church and I found it very sad that this is so openly done in our society I could not stomach it.
  4. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Contrary to what Cardinal Cocopalmiero and others would have us believe, God wants nobody to sin, God hates divorce; and adultery, fornication and sodomy are sins punishable by eternal damnation. That's what the Church always taught until Pope Francis who denounces clericalism turned out to be the daddy of clericalism when he plotted his way on to St. Peter's seat. Cardinal Palmiero believes that God would want a person who fully understands that adultery is sinful to continue having sexual relations in an adulterous union to prevent the breakup of the adulterous union.

    The motive of someone claiming that God would want someone to commit adultery is to pretend that adultery is acceptable to God. We can pussyfoot around this all we want, but if someone tells us that God would want us to commit murder, we wouldn't hesitate in saying that the person making such a statement is preaching evil. Why is it different for adultery, and why is it different when the person making the claim is someone close to the Pope and using the Pope's teaching as the basis for his claim?
    HeavenlyHosts likes this.
  5. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    So Cardinal Cocopalmiero believes God wants us to sin does he, Dolours? No you don't need to give us pages of justification for nonsense like this (although I'm sure you will provide them anyway). Instead, how about studying the ninth Commandment which is also punishable by eternal damnation. I quote a little paragraph from a web page I came across:

    With incredible power, God spoke from Mount Sinai, “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). This is the fifth of the commandments related to preserving loving relationships among mankind. Remember, the first four commandments show us how to love God; the last six explain how to love other humans. Besides preserving the family structure, marriage, human life and other human beings’ possessions, with the Ninth Commandment, God seeks to guard what is next most important to any human: his reputation. This commandment forbids all lying, which includes the sins of slander and gossip. A thief takes physical things that are easily replaced; however, a man’s reputation taken by lies, slander or gossip is often never restored.
    Jeanne likes this.
  6. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    This is the cardinal who in supporting his document on AL argues 'in some cases, avoiding sex may be “an impossibility”.

    LOL. He is a scream!

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
    BrianK likes this.
  7. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Out of his own mouth, David: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-new...s-his-positions-on-catholics-in-irregular-uni

    I'm sure I don't need to remind you what Jesus said about marriage and adultery. Perhaps someone needs to remind the Cardinal.
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  8. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Ha - I said his 'quote' is a scream - I am not laughing at him. I am laughing at his quote. Are you dim and/or being deliberately obtuse?

    I assume you agree with the good Cardinal then David that avoiding sex is an 'impossibilty'.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  9. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    I think deliberately obtuse!

    What odds the photo? (freely available online) - think you have had a humour bypass David.
  10. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    No David, either the Cardinal is attempting to justify adultery on the grounds that God would want a couple to continue having sexual relations lest fidelity in an adulterous union is endangered or the Church is teaching something that God doesn't want.

    Also, prior to Amoris Laetitia, has the Catholic Church ever taught or believed that sex outside valid marriage is acceptable as long as the sexually active co-habiting couple might get married some time in the future?
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
    HeavenlyHosts likes this.
  11. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    Again, a little weird....projection.......sprinkled with a little paranoia? "Not up to the task"? A rather general application to perhaps cover over certain dismissals without explanation.....to not only the faithful, but to the persons themselves? Don't things like that initiate the "gossip" he then happily condemns? Is there a "forked tongue" in there somewhere?

    Pope condemns 'cancer' of cliques in Christmas message to staff
    Francis says some of those chosen to help him reform Holy See have shown themselves to be not up to the task

    Francis acknowledged there were plenty of competent, loyal and even saintly people who worked in the Holy See. But he also said there were others chosen to help him reform the Vatican’s inefficient and outdated bureaucracy who had shown themselves to be not up to the task.

    When these people were “delicately” removed, Francis said, “they falsely declare themselves martyrs of the system, of an ‘uninformed pope’ or the ‘old guard’, when in fact they should have done a mea culpa.”

    Thursday’s speech was tamer and promised to focus mostly on the Vatican’s relations with other countries and faiths. But Francis spent a good chunk of his remarks on in-house business, making reference to a number of controversial and mysterious exits of Vatican officials in 2017 that once again raised questions about his ability to reform.

    Some of the heads to roll this year included the Vatican’s first auditor general, the respected deputy in the Vatican bank and the Vatican’s hardline orthodoxy watchdog.

  12. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Here is a fuller report of the Pope's address from a religious website:

    VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis again upbraided the high-level Catholic prelates who run the Vatican bureaucracy in an annual pre-Christmas speech Dec. 21, telling them to get beyond what he termed an "unbalanced and degraded logic of plots and small cliques" in order to better serve him, the global church and the world at large.

    Francis told the cardinals and bishops who run the bureaucracy to not "let themselves be bribed by their ambition" in search for higher office but rather to act simply as antennae that listen for the "cries, joys and tears of the churches of the world" and relay what they hear to him.

    Most of all, the pope told the prelates the Vatican is not designed to be closed in on itself but to be at the service of the world, especially local bishops, "for whose good it operates and acts."

    Speaking in the apostolic palace's 16th-century Clementine Hall in his colorful style, Francis warned: "A curia closed up in itself would betray the objective of its existence and would fall into self-centeredness, condemning itself to self-destruction."

    The pope was speaking Dec. 21 in an annual meeting that under previous pontiffs had simply been a polite encounter to exchange greetings before the holidays.

    But, in 2014, he shocked the Vatican bureaucracy, known as the Roman curia, by using the occasion to list off 15 "spiritual sicknesses" he said he had witnessed among them. In 2016, he lashed out at high-level prelates who have been opposing his efforts to reform the Vatican, saying some are practicing a "malevolent resistance."

    This year, Francis focused on the curia's relationship with the wider world, especially with other nations, Christian denominations and other religions. The pope laced his 30-minute address with references to three different analogies for how he thinks the curia should work: as a deacon, always aimed at serving others; as antennae, relaying signals; and as parts of a body, feeling and relaying sensations.

    Describing the role of senses as "helping us to grasp the real and equally to place ourselves in the real," Francis said that ability helps identify what is essential and not.

    "This is very important in getting beyond the unbalanced and degraded logic of plots and small cliques that in reality represent — despite all their justifications and good intentions — a cancer that brings on self-centeredness, that infiltrates ecclesiastical organisms and the people who work in them," said the pope.

    Francis then lambasted "the betrayers of trust or the profiteers of the maternity of the church; people that are selected to give better vigor to reform but — not understanding the highness of their calling — let themselves be bribed by ambition or vainglory and when they are delicately removed erroneously declare themselves martyrs of the system, of a 'pope who doesn't know,' of the 'old-guard,' instead of reciting 'mea culpa.' "

    Among those who left Vatican service in the last year were the city-state's first auditor general, a deputy in the so-called Vatican bank, and the former head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, German Cardinal Gerhard Müller.

    In tying the role of members of the curia to that of a deacon, Francis referred to the third-century Didascalia Apostolorum, which describes the deacon as "the ear and the mouth of the bishop, his heart and his soul."

    "I don't believe it's an accident that the ear is the organ of hearing but also of equilibrium, and the mouth the organ of breathing but also speaking," Francis said. "The relation we can deduce from these images is that of a communion of filial obedience for the service of the holy people of God."

    The pope told his subordinates he referred to them as deacons and as parts of one body "to explain that in order to reach the spaces where the Spirit speaks to the churches today ... it is necessary, in fact indispensable, to practice discernment of the signs of the times, communion in service, charity in truth, docility to the Spirit and confident obedience to superiors."

    Francis then explained how he wants the curia to interact with other nations, local churches, eastern Catholic churches, in ecumenical dialogue and with other religions. He told the Vatican bureaucrats that their relationship with local bishops should be based on "collaboration, trust, and never superiority or conflict."

    "The Roman curia ... has as its reference point not only the Bishop of Rome, from which it takes its authority, but also surely the local churches and their pastors around the whole world, for whose good it operates and acts," he said.

    In the curia's relation with other nations, Francis praised the role of Vatican diplomacy, which he called "the sincere and constant search to make the Holy See a builder of bridges, peace and dialogue among nations."

    He said the role of Vatican diplomats is to "listen, understand, help, lift up and intervene readily and respectfully in any situation to close the distance and weave trust."

    "The only interest of Vatican diplomacy is that of being free of any worldly or material interest," he said.

    Francis ended his speech with a reflection on the meaning of the Christmas story, when Christians believe God entered into human history as a small child.

    "Christmas reminds us that a faith that does not put itself in crisis is a faith in crisis," he said. "That a faith that does not grow is a faith that must grow; that a faith that does not question us is a faith that we must question; a faith that does not animate us is a faith that must be reanimated; a faith that does not upset us is a faith that must be upset."

    At a later meeting with non-managerial Vatican staff Dec. 21, Francis asked their forgiveness, saying that at times the people around them have not always been good role models and have made mistakes. The pope also said he wanted to end the Vatican's system of hiring some workers on a temporary basis or even paying them "under the table," saying such arrangements do not respect the dignity of the officials' work.

    Francis inserted some of his trademark humor into his Christmas message with the curia's prelates. Referring at one point to his continuing efforts to reform the Vatican, he quoted 19th-century Belgian archbishop and papal statesman Xavier de Mérode's assertion that "reforming Rome is like cleaning the Sphinx of Egypt with a toothbrush."

  13. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    David, As much as I do not like to directly comment on particular prelates, I would kindly ask you to retract your charge of lying and your threat of eternal damnation against Dolours unless you can provide proof she is a liar. You are very quick to upbraid people for their "sins" as you perceive them. Calling someone a liar in public is a serious charge, especially if it is untrue. If it is untrue then that would make you a liar, slanderer, and it is also the sin of calumny, all of which carry their own eternal repercussions.

    If she has lied please prove it, don't just say her statement is nonsense and then tell her you don't want to see her supporting facts. That sort of dismissal of the facts before they have been presented is ridiculous. It would seem to indicate you are not interested in the truth.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  14. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I seem to remember reading something about why Pope Benedict XVI chose that as his Papal name. I think it had something to do with the fact that St. Benedict had a practice or saying that you must prune the dead branches to bring new life.

    The idea perhaps being that what the Church must do now is not water down its beliefs to accommodate the world, but double down on the faith and let those fall away who do not wish to adhere to the tenets of the faith. The Church then would become smaller, but stronger and full of life. Not half-dead with permissiveness and laxity.

    In one sense it sounds a bit harsh, but in another it is like a bitter but necessary medicine for an ill patient.
    Mary's child and sterph like this.
  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I am sorry we do not hear from Benedict these days, but I suppose he is old and sick. Sad.
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  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

    This not like you David. You have always been so polite and well mannered. I am surprised at you. This seems very,very harsh and unlike you? Especially towards a woman?

  17. Well, the implication would be either that God wants us to sin, that God's grace is insufficient, that God doesn't care enough to help the sinner, or that there is no God.

    I agree David, one should be fair. Presumably, this extends to enumerating all of the possibilities, and, in deference to the Cardinal, refraining from presuming which of the above is his position.

    Yes, I realize that's a bit of a straw man, but unless we're completely throwing rational thought out the window I don't think that there can be other possibilities. And, please, for the love of God, don't say that nothing is impossible for God, because, in this case, that would involve saying that God is willing that which is not his will...that is, that God's name is "I am that which I am not".

    That ain't God.
  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

  19. AED

    AED Powers

  20. AED

    AED Powers

    Yes. I have listened to it twice. Much to ponder. This priest is such a gift. So sound and so brave and so charitable. I hope everyone will listen and watch.
    Praetorian likes this.

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