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Scripture and the End Times Discussion

Discussion in 'Scriptural Thoughts' started by Virtue, Apr 27, 2017.

  1. Virtue

    Virtue Angels

    Hi all,

    I just listened to two of the homilies from http://www.romans10seventeen.org/. This site has a collection of homilies from the FSSP priest who also did those Dubia homilies on the SensusFidelium Youtube channel that have been posted here before. Both of these homilies were on the end times: Part 1: http://www.romans10seventeen.org/audio-files/20030105-The-End-Times-part-1.mp3 Part 2: http://www.romans10seventeen.org/audio-files/20030106-The-End-Times-part-2.mp3

    One of the things I love about FSSP is their fundamental faith that what Scripture says...is actually true! For instance, Enoch and Elijah are literally still alive and will return at the End Times.

    Listening to these homilies raises a few questions for me, and I wondered what other people think. I am not here doubting what the priest preached, but rather assenting to it while trying to understand it.

    1.) He says that, according to Doctor of the Church Robert Bellarmine, the Antichrist will not be the devil himself (since the devil cannot become incarnate--this is something only God can do) but instead a human being fully possessed by the devil from birth. Now, my question is, what of that person's free will? My understanding is that everybody has a chance at salvation and can either cooperate with God or reject God. It would seem that someone possessed since birth does not have that choice and is damned from the start--perhaps even predestined for hell.

    The only way I can make sense of this is by relating it to some recent news and articles that have been posted here. Scientists are hellbent (literally) on cloning humans. My personal belief has always been that, even if you can clone a body, you cannot clone a rational soul, as this is a unique creation that God creates out of nothing. While the man and woman present the matter for the body, God impresses the soul onto the matter. So, my belief has been that, if scientists "succeed" in cloning humans, these "humans" will be soulless, or at least not rational--essentially animals that look like humans. Someone recently posted about some mystic on Youtube who had a similar take on this. Could this be the Antichrist? If the devil can't incarnate, and humans must have free choice, could the devil possess a cloned human? This clone would never have free will to begin with since it doesn't have a rational soul, but to all outward appearances it would look and act human because of the possession.

    2.) Enoch and Elijah are still alive, but where are they? They could have been assumed into heaven, but it would be strange to come down from heaven and be killed, since all who have bodies in heaven have glorified bodies. Perhaps they are in Purgatory or Limbo, but they are saints so that seems unlikely. I recall Anne Catherine Emmerich saying something about the Garden of Eden being a real place and being moved to another plane of existence or something, and that Enoch and Elijah are there. Have you read anything about where they are? I would imagine that, wherever they are, time does not pass at the same speed for them. Otherwise, I feel badly for them--who wants to live for thousands of years?

    3.) Yet, when Enoch and Elijah return, the world will look completely different from when they left. Are they aware of what is going on in the world now? Otherwise, they will be in total shock when they arrive. We know they preach in Jerusalem, but how will the rest of the world get their message? Will the internet, television, radio, etc. even be available during the Final Persecution?

    4.) Finally, the priest kept saying something about us being explicitly forbidden to guess what name matches with 666 lest we fall prey to him, but each time I could not hear him clearly. Does anyone know what he actually said? I've never heard this before, and it seems like we would want to match the number and name in order to avoid the person. Maybe he means that, if we attribute 666 to someone wrongly and believe them to be the Antichrist then we might fall victim to the real Antichrist? But, based on all of the pseudo-miracles and magic being performed, I find it hard to believe that you could mistake someone else for the real Antichrist. Honestly, listening to the homilies and the descriptions of the Antichrist, I wondered how anyone who has ever read the Gospel could possibly mistake the Antichrist for God--it seems like it would be so obvious that he is not (he doesn't come on a cloud, he doesn't come to cast judgment, God isn't coming back to tool around on earth for years like this guy is, etc.).

    What are your thoughts?
  2. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    I have watched a few of Jimmy Akin's videos on end times subjects on youtube and yesterday I noticed that he has a DVD out on the subject http://shop.catholic.com/understanding-revelation-decoding-the-bible-s-most-mysterious-book.html and https://www.leafletonline.com/understanding-revelation-dvd-by-jimmy-akin . I wonder if anyone here has purchased this video and what their opinion is. I do like Jimmy Akin but I will tell you this from what I have seen he will give options. In other words, no one may have the answers to some questions, only theories. That is what I like about Jimmy Akin, he seems to pursue all avenues and he admits that he is uncertain unless of course it is something which the Catholic church itself teaches, then he will tell you straight out.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
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  3. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    1. I think it is possible that a parent could dedicate an infant to Satan and raise the child in the satanic arts. As the child grows, he will have free will and can choose to turn away from evil. God's grace is available to everyone who wishes to avail of it. He makes available to all of us sufficient grace to find our way home to Him. Satan is an angel - a spirit. He doesn't have the power to make himself human.

    2. According to Jimmy Akin, the Catholic apologist, Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/yes-enoch-and-elijah-went-to-heaven
    I suppose it's possible that they could be asleep. If they are outside the universe, then they are outside time so a thousand years could be like a day. Before Jesus redeemed us, the OT prophets weren't in hell but neither were they in Heaven. According to the Bible, they were in Abraham's bosom but neither was Abraham in Heaven or hell. I suppose Enoch and Elijah could be wherever those dead prophets were, although perhaps not since Enoch and Elijah didn't die. It's a conundrum.

    3. If Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses, God will make sure they know all that's necessary for them to carry out their mission.

    4. I don't know whether or not trying to match the number of the beast to a living person is forbidden but it isn't encouraged. That's probably because it would be a distraction now since we have yet to see the conversion of "all Israel" which the Church teaches will happen after the full complement of Gentiles have been brought into the fold and before the reign of the AC. You can read what the Catechism says about the final trial here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm

    I urge you to read this excellent article by Carl E. Olson on the website of the Catholic Education Resource Centre http://www.catholiceducation.org/en...ologetics/are-we-living-in-the-last-days.html It's an easy to read piece in which Mr. Olson tackles some Protestant Fundamentalist beliefs about the end times which some Catholics are drawn to. Context matters. The FSSP priest was speaking to a congregation in the US where such beliefs are more common than in other countries.

    We mustn't forget that the AC will be a liar who won't fully reveal himself until he is in a position to inflict a worldwide persecution on the Church.

    That's my 2 c. worth and I'm certainly open to correction should I have said something contrary to Church teaching.
    AED, SgCatholic, Virtue and 5 others like this.
  4. Virtue

    Virtue Angels

    Thanks for the response, Dolours. Certainly interesting stuff.

    1. I think that's a good idea of how the AC would still have free will and be human, especially since Robert Bellarimine states that his mother will be possessed. It makes sense, then, that she would raise her child that way.

    2. Jimmy presents a persuasive case, but I don't think you can simultaneously hold that they are in heaven now AND that they are literally the two witnesses to return and be killed in Jerusalem. This is because of our doctrine of heaven--once reached, your happiness is eternal and suffering is ended, and you possess a glorified body that is impassible. Thus, if they return to earth from heaven, they cannot be killed because their bodies are impassible. In order for them to be killed and in heaven now, they would have to be in heaven without glorified bodies, meaning they would still need to eat, sleep, relieve themselves, etc., which seems unlikely. Additionally, if they come down from heaven and are killed, then they have suffered consequently to attaining heaven, which is problematic as it would open up the possibility of heaven and beatitude not being eternal for all those who reach it. I don't know Jimmy's position, but I would wager that he does not think Enoch and Elijah literally come back as the two witnesses. If he does, I'd be interested to read what he says about it. I'd also be happy to read any responses to the problems I raise for Jimmy's conclusion.

    3. Yes, I agree that God will make sure they are fully prepared, I was just interested in thinking through how this would be so. I guess, ultimately, it is a mystery.

    4. I guess I don't understand why Scripture would give us the number if we weren't supposed to make use of it. I agree that we shouldn't waste our time obsessing over it, but surely it is given to us so that, when the AC arrives, we have another way to identify him? I thank you for directing me to the Catechism and other source--I have read the relevant portions before as well as other texts on the End Times, but it's always good to refresh. Were you trying to direct me to a certain part in particular? My question is, assenting to all that the Church teaches about the AC and End Times, I have trouble wrapping my mind around how so many Catholics will be deceived (even some of the elect will be deceived). Just knowing basic facts, such as that Jesus will return on a cloud specifically to judge the living and the dead and NOT to set up a world religion, peace on earth, etc., it would seem that Catholics should easily be able to rule out anyone claiming to both be God and do these things (setting up a world religion, world government, etc.) I feel that I am missing something important.

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  5. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Elijah appeared with Jesus and Moses at the Transfiguration
    I am under the impression that we do not get our glorified bodies in Heaven until after the Final Judgment
    I do not have a problem with Enoch and Elijah being alive somewhere
    I guess I just assume God has it all planned out and under control
    I just assume they are with God
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
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  6. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I have to preface my remarks here by stressing my ignorance on this topic, so be aware that this could be a case of the blind leading the blind.

    Reading what Jimmy Aikan said, it looks like he is basing his conclusion on the scriptural passages from Kings and Maccabees about Elijah and what Pope St. John Paul said about both Enoch and Elijah. While nothing is impossible for God, it would seem contradictory to believe that the gates of Heaven were closed to mankind until we were redeemed by Jesus and yet declare that two men were taken to Heaven before even Abraham. Perhaps they were taken to Heaven but only after Jesus descended to the dead. Once again, if they were taken outside the universe, they were outside time as we know it. It's not beyond God's power to glorify their bodies without a physical death. If they are in Heaven without glorified bodies, then it isn't beyond God to sustain them. We'll just have to accept there are things we won't know or understand until we see God face to face. While it's generally believed that Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses, I don't think that the Church has ever definitively said so. I could well be wrong about that. There's so much that we don't know and won't know until nearer the end times. Speculation can lead us down rabbit holes and dead ends. God will enlighten us as to the full meaning of the book of Revelation when the time is right. While there will be no new Divine Revelation, Jesus left us a Church to interpret and teach what has been revealed and will guide the Church's understanding of revelation as and when appropriate.

    I had no specific reason to post the links to the Catechism and the other article other than that I believe it's no harm to bear in mind the Church's official position when we are discussing these matters. No harm, either, to remind anyone reading this thread who hasn't read the Catechism that the reign of the AC won't happen until after all Israel acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah, which will be a very significant, if not the most significant, sign that we are approaching end times, not least because it will signify that the full complement of Gentiles has been evangelised. Also, some Catholics are inclined to work a form of millenarianrism into the era of peace promised by Our Lady of Fatima despite the Catechism clearly condemning millenarianism. (I never know whether the correct word is millenialism or millenarianism but I'm happy to accept the term given in the Catechism).

    The time to use the number of the beast will be when the beast arrives on the scene and, again, I trust that God will give us the grace to know what and who it means. The Catechism tells us that there will be a religious deception offering us a solution that involves turning from the Truth. That's how even the elect will be deceived. "The elect" is often interpreted as meaning the clergy, particularly Bishops but I don't know whether that's official Church teaching. Scripture tells us that there will be many antichrists before the arrival of the Man of Sin and there have been examples in Church history of bishops and priests choosing to side with earthly rulers against the Church. England is probably a prime example of that where only a single Bishop (St. John Fisher) sided with the Church against Henry V111. The Man of Sin will be a lot more powerful and cunning than Henry.

    I suppose that I linked the Olsen article because it gives examples of how easy it is for us to be distracted from concentrating on working on our own salvation now if we spend too much time speculating about the future. I think that the following paragraph especially shows the folly of engaging in such speculation:

    "The issue of authority in interpreting Scripture is important because so much of what passes for "Biblical prophecy" today is really pseudo-Biblical guesswork, noteworthy for its use of sloppy methods, hazy conjecture, and overt sensationalism. Many "prophecy teachers," especially in the last three decades, have taken passages of Scripture and applied them to current events and people with little or no regard for historical context or original meaning of the texts. This has resulted, for example, in the Antichrist being identified as the Pope, Hitler, Gorbachev, Ronald Reagan, Saddam Hussein, and other, lesser-known people."

    That's my take on things, Virtue, and I hope you can make some sense out of it. I stress once again that it comes from a very limited understanding of the topic. I believe it best to trust that the Church's Magisterium will guide us through the final tribulation because Christ won't leave us rudderless.

  7. Virtue

    Virtue Angels

    Thanks, HeavenlyHosts. It's true, we don't get our glorified bodies until after the Final Judgment, excepting Our Lady and Our Lord. That part of my objection is faulty. I got mixed up because, whereas people normally would go just soul into heaven, and then receive their glorified bodies after the Final Judgment, Enoch and Elijah would be in the unique situation of having their mortal bodies in heaven, unless their bodies were glorified when they were assumed like Mary's was. So, either they have a mortal body in heaven, which seems problematic, or they have immortal bodies, which can't be killed when they come back. I see only 3 possible solutions to this: 1) They aren't in heaven right now; 2) God is miraculously sustaining their mortal bodies in heaven; 3) They aren't the Two Witnesses. Perhaps my questioning is fruitless because we may not be able to know based on the information that we have, and perhaps we're not meant to know. Maybe all will be explained when they arrive, or maybe we won't find out until God willing we are in heaven, too.
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  8. Virtue

    Virtue Angels

    Thanks again, Dolours, for a very thoughtful response! It's funny--I responded to HeavenlyHosts before reading your post, only to find that you already suggested my 3 options and conclusion, and in much better words! I think you're right that this is something to simply take on faith until it is explained in due time--either when it occurs or when we die. It is tough to find a balance--on the one hand, the faith should be reasonable, and encyclicals like Fides et ratio talk about how it's good to use reason to try to understand parts of the faith. But, on the other hand, faith is more important than reason, and sometimes a lesson of faith is to be willing to give assent and have patience with understanding, rather than trying to figure it out. It can be difficult to know which action we should be taking.

    I think it was good of you to post those links. It is very easy to go astray especially when talking about End Times stuff, so having the official teaching on hand is prudent. You're right that there are still a lot of signs left, such as the conversion of the Jews. And if St. Patrick's prophecy from another thread is true, the flooding of Ireland 7 years before the AC, unfortunately. These things should be major signs for those who are alive for them.

    Your explanation of the "elect" as clergy makes total sense. I thought it referred to Catholics generally, but it would even make sense that if bishops are going astray that they will cause confusion and even lead many orthodox Catholics astray. I'm not sure on the official teaching, but maybe this paves the way for the AC? So that there is already confusion before he arrives on the scene? I still think it sounds like it would be obvious that he is not God when he comes on the scene, but I'm probably underestimating his cunning.
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  9. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Actually, I thought you summarised it very well in your reply to HeavenlyHosts.

    Yes, it is something we will have to take on faith. What we know for sure is that the Jews will be converted. I take that to mean believing Jews because many ethnic Jews are atheists, just as many baptised Catholics have rejected the existence of God. As far as I know, there is nothing in Church teaching to say that every human being will believe in God prior to the end of the world. (I could be wrong about that).

    I don't know, but think it very likely, that Christianity will be united when the AC arrives. That's just a sense I get but I could be way wide of the mark.

    There is a belief that the False Prophet will be a member of the Church hierarchy. That's not official Church teaching but the Church hasn't condemned it. The False Prophet and lukewarm clerics combined with a powerful world leader could deceive many. The False Prophet will have already sown the seed of confusion when the AC's evil is unleashed.

    We really don't know what shape the world will be in when all these things come to pass. We don't know how much time will elapse between the conversion of the Jews and the Great Apostasy. Some Early Church Fathers believed that the AC would be Jewish from the tribe of Dan. We don't know whether he will reveal himself as being from that tribe or claim to be from the line of King David. It makes sense that he would claim to be the genuine Messiah and declare Jesus to have been a fake or a mythical figure and perhaps produce fake archaeological discoveries to support his claim - some kind of fake Dead Sea Scrolls. Or he could claim to be Jesus come to impose a 1000 year reign of peace. We just don't know. The only thing we know for sure is that if we hold fast to the Truth handed down to us through Christ's Church and cling on to the barque of Peter, we stand a fair chance that God's grace will see us through to the end.
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  10. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I think both Pope St. John Paul and Pope Benedict's prophecies about the end times are clear about the future of the Church. It "becomes very small, but very holy". Several credible prophecies also make it clear that the Warning will clearly separate the true believers from the apostates/atheists and into the era of peace. All believers will be one in faith from the Warning on, as there will be no need for other denominations or religions, as all will know God's truth through the warning. The rosary is the weapon heaven has given us to defeat the enemies of God. It is also the assurance heaven has given the remnant to defeat heresies. Its promises also assures us final perseverance and salvation to those who recite it from the heart daily.

    1. To all those who shall recite my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and very great graces.
    2. Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some signal grace.
    3. The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against Hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.
    4. The Rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant Divine mercies; it will substitute in hearts love of God for love of the world and elevate them to desire heavenly and eternal goods. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means!
    5. Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.
    6. Those who shall recite my Rosary piously, considering its mysteries, will not be overwhelmed by misfortune, nor die a bad death.
    7. Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the consolations of the Church or without grace.
    8. Those who shall recite my Rosary will find during their life and at their death, the light of God, the fullness of His grace and will share in the merits of the blessed.
    9. I will deliver very promptly from purgatory the souls devoted to my Rosary.
    10. The true children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in Heaven.
    11. What you shall ask through my Rosary, you shall obtain.
    12. Those who propagate my Rosary will obtain through me aid in all their necessities.
    13. I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have for their intercessors in life and death the Saints of Heaven.
    14. Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.
    15. Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.
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  11. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Virtue, I don't have the answers to your questions except maybe the last one. I think the priest states that we should not attempt to get the AC's name from his number, 666, before he arrives because those who do will be easily deceived by him because they will not be on their guard against him. I wonder if that means that we can use other methods to attempt to determine who he might be?

    The priest states that the AC will be lifted up by satan as if to appear to ascend to heaven at then end of his 3.5yr reign but Saint Michael makes him fall to Earth and then he falls into hell. The priest also states that the fathers of the church stated that the Second Coming will occur 1.5 months after this. Does anyone know if this is true? and possibly how they determined this, is it in scripture somewhere and if so where? Thank you in advance.
  12. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Dolours, I believe I agree with almost everything that you posted here. The AC will be a liar and I think it may not be easy to identify him at first. I have never heard that he would be possessed since infancy but I have heard that he would be possessed immediately before he removes the public mass.

    Personally, I don't believe that the conversion of "all Israel" will occur until immediately before the Second Coming. This might not happen until the 2 witnesses have ascended to heaven, which per the priest in these homilies states will happen 1.5 months before the final judgment. I believe that some Jews will convert before then but not all or why would it appear that so many people will be celebrating the death of the 2 witnesses:
    Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry: and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth.

    The article by Olson is very good. He states,
    In conclusion, it can be seen that the Catholic Church says relatively little about future events leading up to Christ's Second Coming. Many of her teachings are rejections (either implicit or explicit), not affirmations, of particular beliefs such as the dispensational dichotomy between the Church and Israel, the "secret" Rapture, and the earthly millennial kingdom. What she does teach is quite clear, as well as succinct: there will be a Second Coming, a time of trial which the Church must endure, an Antichrist, a conversion of Israel to Christ, a definitive judgment of all people, and the fulfillment of the Kingdom that has already begun in the Church. Within those parameters, Catholics may freely roam, search the Scriptures, and seek to better understand the Word of God.

    In the homilies, the priest states that Doctor of the Church Saint Robert Bellarmine gives us 6 signs to recognize the end times, two precede the AC, two accompany the AC and two follow upon the AC's rule.

    6 SIGNS OF THE END TIMES BY Saint Robert Bellarmine



    The Two which follow upon the AC's rule: The DESTRUCTION OF THE AC and the END OF THE WORLD

    *The priest states that the Roman Empire will last in some sense until the rejection of the true faith by the gentile nations, the great apostasy. The great apostasy is a religious revolt, turning back to paganism. The AC will rise up and destroy the Roman Empire, 10 Kings of Democracy, this will be a political revolt. The AC will subdue 7 of these 10 kings and other 3 will submit, then the power will shift to Asia specifically to Jerusalem.
    2 Thessalonians Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
    1 And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him:
    2 That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
    4 Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.

    As Catholics, we believe that the AC will be rising up for 3.5 years as the priest eludes that Saint Bellarmine believes when he states that the AC will rise up and destroy the Roman Empire but yet states that the termination of the Roman Empire is something that precedes the AC, correct? When Saint Bellarmine states these 2 things precede the AC, he means precedes the AC's 3.5yr horrific reign in which he has set himself up in the temple of God as if he were God.

  13. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I'm not as well read on end times topics as most of you here because when we were growing up we were taught to focus on our own end which could come at any time and that the best defence against anything or anyone anti-Christ is to hold fast to the faith in the Church founded by Jesus. That advice is as sound today as it will be immediately prior to the Second Coming.

    I believe that the Roman Empire means secular power. In the apostles' time Rome was the secular power. In our time it could be any of the super powers and in the future it could be an enhanced and expanded UN.

    I think it is possible that we will see the rise of the AC before the mass conversion of the Jews. Somebody has to validate the AC's claim to be the Messiah. On the other hand, I suppose it's also possible that the Jews will convert beforehand and the AC will be the Muslim mahdi or whatever they call him. Perhaps pagans who believe in multiple gods will hail the AC as one of their gods. Perhaps atheists will be convinced that there is a god after all and that the AC is their god. Who knows? We can be certain that the remnant Church will never abandon the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
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  14. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Virtue, I keep meaning to thank you for posting those homilies, they seemed to be exactly what I was looking for yesterday. I began reading The 2nd Book of Thessalonians yesterday in search of some more answers and then thought of posting a new thread with a related question and I came upon this thread once again. I think that we are all trying to figure some of these things out together and we worry about the same thing, will we truly be able to recognize this great evil, the AC, when it is "all" happening.
    I know very little about the 2 witnesses because when I have done some research about them I found much conflicting information that I suppose I steered away from delving any further. But to help answer your questions about the AC and why so many people will be fooled I recently studied what the Jews will be expecting to happen when their "Messiah" comes and I also studied what some of the Protestants believe will happen in the end times. To attempt to further answer your question as to why so many Catholics may be deceived by the AC, well, the priest in your homilies may have the answer to that. Maybe some people are expecting an Era of Peace and the AC will appear to bring peace at first, or some may believe in Millennialism. I know that when I first read Revelation 20, I misunderstood it and without even knowing about Millennialism was, I questioned this concept as a possibility. Although, I knew I was never taught this, so luckily I pursued the truth or maybe someone on MOG (possibly Dolours) helped steer me in the right direction.
    The bottom line is, to be in a state of grace as the priest says. We can't prevent these things from happening but hopefully we can prevent ourselves from becoming a victim to them. Christ is not going to reign with us on this Earth as we know it, so long as there is any death, pain, suffering of any sort in existence then we have the wrong guy.

    Revelation 21Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.
    6 And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the end. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely.
    7 He that shall overcome shall possess these things, and I will be his God; and he shall be my son.
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  15. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Dolours, I think that you know as much as any of us do, probably more and you continue to keep us on the right path which is the most important thing of all. Much of what Saint Bellarmine states makes sense to me, for instance that the AC will be Jewish but some of what he states is a bit too specific which I am a little weary of. I think what you suggest is good, that we can't be 100% certain of a lot of these things (hence, my original post in which I was weary to steer people in the wrong direction because I do have some very specific ideas of what may happen.).
    Thank you.
  16. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I think we only get a glorified body after the total end of the world and the final judgement
    Elijah appeared with Moses at the Transfiguration
    He was definitely with Jesus
  17. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Elias and Moses were with Jesus at the transfiguration, but Church teaching is that nobody entered Heaven before Jesus preached to the dead and the prophets were admitted to Heaven. My understanding is (and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) that no human could enter Heaven before Jesus. That doesn't mean Elias is not in Heaven now because all things are possible with God.
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  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I agree, Dolours.
  19. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    You are correct Dolours.
    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell"— Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham’s bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. (CCC 633)
    HeavenlyHosts and Dolours like this.
  20. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Dolours, I am still stuck on number 4, I read the catechism yesterday and it did not appear to be in any chronological order. After listening to Saint Bellarmine's ideas that the AC will first go to the Jews just as Christ did and the Second Coming is going to follow the destruction of the AC by 45 days, it did not appear logical to me to believe that the conversion of "all Israel" would occur before the AC. But I found this from ETWN last night:
    The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,
    1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
    2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
    3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
    4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.
    As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel."

    I also know that Pope Benedict has stated that we are not supposed to evangelize the Jews, he stated God will take care of that. I forget where I read or heard that. That is another reason why I thought that it could be possible that the Jews will not accept Christ until they witness a miracle like that of the 2 witnesses being raised up after 3.5 days but maybe the Warning does cause many to convert but then the AC offers a solution to men's problems at the price of apostasy from the truth as our Catechism states. I want to be clear here that I am not doubting anything stated in our Catechism, I am just trying to understand the order of the events but ETWN would understand it all better than me, therefore I am sharing this with all of you. Maybe because the AC is instrumental in bringing "peace", people will want to listen to the "solutions" he offers? IOW, the acceptance of the AC may not have anything to do with the reasons which I stated in post #14.

    NOTE: My statement here about Pope Benedict is probably a misinterpretation that I read somewhere. Jimmy Akin explains here, http://jimmyakin.com/2011/03/pope-dont-evangelize-jews-really.html
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017

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