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Schism prior to the Warning?

Discussion in 'GARABANDAL LIBRARY' started by non sum dignus, Oct 14, 2017.

  1. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I will give you 50% right, only because prayer with penance is much much stronger against evil and Jesus showed us this by going into the desert and doing both.
     
    fallen saint likes this.
  2. padraig

    padraig New Member

    There is something about the name, 'Little Rock', that rings bells with me. Now what could that be?

    I must do a google search
     
  3. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Ah yes, Civil Rights, I remember now, there was a programme about this on the BBC several weeks ago.

     
  4. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Also of course Bill Clinton.:)
     
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think one thing about the spiritual life is that it does not consist or finding deep certainties, a place we can rest in secure that we know all the answers. I find as I go on that each answer I discover leads to more and more questions. We are meant to be ships at sea , rather than ships at harbour. Great saints like Padre Pio only had many answers because they had asked many questions.
    Padre Pio was not great, not because he knew it all but because he knew he did not know it all.

    Inasmuch we do arrive at certainties it is only through answering very hard questions.

    We are , as a Church, facing some very,very,very hard questions indeed at the moment.

    I find this knowledge reasurring at the moment in this huge crisis in the Church when we ,all of us have so many, many questions and so few answers. That we are meant to be sailing on the high seas in Great Storms, far from shore rather than at safe harbour.

    Safe harbour is heaven and we are not yet there.
     
    gracia, sunburst and Praetorian like this.
  6. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Actually earlier on tonight I was listening to Michael Voris and his team discussing the crisis. What I thought was that they are only at the very,very beginning of asking questions about all this. So they are only at the begining of finding some answers. Whereas I suspect they thing they have all the answers lined up like so many ducks. But I find this whole buisness is like some huge rabbit hole, the further you get into things the more complicated you find things are.

    Which is why I think God will have to intervene directly to save us. It is the folks who think they have all the answers who really have not even begun to ask the right questions.

    They seem to say it is a matter of deserting the Church or not deserting the Church. Oh if only it were that simple. Poor people.
    I don't think it is a matter of being schismatic or not being schismatic, the issues run much, much, much deeper here.

     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
    sunburst likes this.
  7. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Mark writes...
    According to the reviews I’ve read, such as this one from Vatican analyst Marco Tosatti:

    There is no news of great importance, or extraordinary revelations in “Il Papa Dittatore”; but it certainly is well documented, interesting and valuable… —marcotosatti.com, Nov. 29th, 2017

    What, then, is the “value” of a book that has no news or revelations of great importance, but is seemingly intended to expose the character flaws of the Vicar of Christ? A book with the intention of presenting a ‘scheming Jorge Bergoglio’ in order to counter the ‘humble Pope Francis’? In the big picture, I don’t know. But those vocal opponents of Pope Francis who have been providing fuel for a schism might have just been handed a match.




    Marco Tosatti went on to explain the value...
    ''There are no news of great importance, or extraordinary revelations, in "The Pope Dictator"; but it is certainly very documented, interesting and valuable, especially as regards questionable operations such as the dismissal of the Auditor General Libero Milone (still not replaced, almost four months after the forced resignation ...), the commissioner of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, and above all on the commissioner of the Order of Malta, an operation of extraordinary ruthlessness on the part of the Pope and the Secretariat of State, and in which the smell of money prevails over everything and everyone, without pity for the media only image of a kingdom all poverty and Franciscan inspiration.''

    And Steve Skojec adds...I believe The Dictator Pope will prove to be a critical tool in understanding and documenting the present papacy.
     
    sunburst and Carol55 like this.
  8. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Cardinal Müller: “They Want Me to Lead a Group Against the Pope”
    [​IMG] OnePeterFive December 5, 2017

    The theologian: “There is a risk of a separation which could become a schism. I remain with Bergoglio, but those who complain must be listened to.”

    By Massimo Franco

    “There is a faction of the traditionalist groups, as well as of the progressives, who want to see me as the leader of a movement against the Pope. But I will never do it. I have served the Church with love for forty years as a priest, sixteen years as a professor of dogmatic theology and ten years as a diocesan bishop. I believe in the unity of the Church and I will not let anyone exploit my negative experiences of the last few months. The authorities of the Church, however, ought to listen to those who ask serious questions and make legitimate complaints, not ignore them or, worse, humiliate them. Otherwise, without intending it, they may increase the risk of a slow separation which could develop into a schism of one part of the Catholic world, disoriented and disillusioned. The history of the Protestant schism of Martin Luther 500 years ago ought to teach us above all what mistakes to avoid.” Cardinal Gerhard Müller speaks with a soft voice and pronounced German accent. We are in the apartment on the Piazza della Città Leonina where in the past Joseph Ratzinger lived before he became Benedict XVI, in a building where various high ranking prelates reside.

    Müller, perhaps the most respected Catholic theologian, is the ex-prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, replaced by surprise last July by Jorge Mario Bergoglio. “The Pope told me, ‘Some have said to me anonymously that you are my enemy,’ without explaining to me on what point [they said I opposed him],” said Müller, heartbroken. “After forty years of service to the Church, this is what I heard said about me – an absurd accusation created by empty talkers who instead of attempting to instill apprehension in the Pope would do better to visit a shrink. A Catholic bishop and cardinal of the Holy Roman Church is by nature “with” the Holy Father. But I believe that, as the 16th-century theologian Melchior Cano said, the Pope’s true friends are not those who give him adulation but those who help him with the truth and with human and theological competence. In all the organizations of the world, sycophants of this stripe serve only themselves.”

    Harsh, resentful words, spoken by one who feels he has suffered an undeserved wrong. The cardinal dismisses the idea, maintained by some alarmist voices, that someone is organizing plots against Francis, disagreeing with others taking positions he considers too progressive: he considers it “an absolute exaggeration.” But he admits that the Church is being strained by serious tensions. “The tensions arise from the opposition existing between an extreme traditionalist position on certain websites and an equally exaggerated progressivist position, which today tries to legitimize itself by claiming to be ultra-papist,” according to Müller. He considers these to be aggressive minorities.

    This is why the cardinal expresses a message of unity but also of concern. “Watch out – if there is a perception given of injustice on the part of the Roman Curia, almost by the force of inertia a movement towards schism could be set in motion, difficult to rein in once started. I believe that the cardinals who expressed the dubia regarding Amoris Laetitia, or the 62 signers of the letter criticizing the Pope, even if their criticisms were excessive, need to be listened to, not dismissed as “Pharisees” or grumpy people. The only way out of this situation is a clear and frank dialogue. Instead, I get the impression that in the “magic1 circle” of the Pope there are those who preoccupy themselves with spying on their presumed adversaries, thus impeding an open and balanced discussion. To classify all Catholics into two categories as either the ‘friend’ or ‘enemy’ of the Pope is the most seriously damaging thing they are doing to the Church. One remains perplexed if a well-known journalist and an atheist can present himself as a friend of the Pope, while at the same time a Catholic bishop and cardinal like me is defamed as an opponent of the Holy Father. I do not believe that these persons can give me theology lessons on the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.”

    Müller does not see a Church more divided than it was in the years of Benedict XVI. “But I see it weaker. We struggle to analyze problems well. Priests are scarce and give answers that are more organizational, political, and diplomatic than theological and spiritual. The Church is not a political party with power struggles. We ought to discuss existential questions, about life and death, the family and religious vocations, and not endlessly discuss church politics. Pope Francis is very popular, and this is a good thing. But the people no longer receive the Sacraments. And his popularity among non-Catholics which is praised with enthusiasm unfortunately does not change their false convictions. Emma Bonino [an Italian Catholic politician], for example, praises the Pope but remains firm in her positions on abortion, which the Pope condemns. We must be careful not to confuse the great popularity of Francis, which is also an enormous patrimony for the Catholic world, with a true revival of the faith, even if we all support the Pope in his mission.1

    In the view of Cardinal Müller, after almost five years of this pontificate one phase of it has ended – that of the Church understood as a “field hospital,” the happy definition which Francis gave to La Civilta Cattolica in 2013, shortly after his election. “It was a great intuition of the Pope. But perhaps now we need to go outside the field hospital and take stock of the war against the natural and supernatural good of contemporary man which made the hospital necessary,” he asserts. “Today we have more need of a ‘Silicon Valley’ of the Church. We ought to be the ‘Steve Jobs’ of the faith and transmit a strong vision in terms of moral and cultural values and spiritual and theological truths. He notes the inadequacy of “the popular theology of certain monsignors and the overly journalistic theology of others. We also need theology at the academic level.”

    From his words one intuits that his criticisms are directed above all towards certain collaborators of Francis. “Popularization is fine. Francis tends to justly emphasize the pride of intellectuals. At times, however, they are not the only proud ones. The vice of pride is an aspect of character and not of the intellect. Faith and reason are friends.” In the cardinal’s view, the model of the papacy which tends to emerge intermittently “more as the sovereign of the Vatican State than as supreme teacher of faith” can raise some objections.

    “I have the feeling that Francis wants to listen to and integrate everyone. But the premises of his decisions must be discussed first. John Paul II was more a philosopher than a theologian, but he made Cardinal Ratzinger assist him and counsel him in the preparation of magisterial documents. The rapport between the Pope and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was and will always be the key to a profitable papacy. And I also remind myself that the bishops are in communion with the Pope: brothers, not delegates, of the Pope, as the Second Vatican Council reminded us. Müller has not yet recovered from “the wound,” as he calls it, of the firing of three of his priest co-workers [at the CDF] shortly before his dismissal. “They were good and competent priests who worked for the Church with exemplary dedication,” is his judgment. “People cannot just be sent away ad libitum, without trial or due process, simply because someone has anonymously denounced a vague criticism of the Pope by one of them…”

    Translated by Giuseppe Pellegrino

    https://onepeterfive.com/cardinal-muller-want-lead-group-pope/
     
  9. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    I saw that in the news that the UK was to get hit hard with snow storm...esp. around Birmingham? Yes, snow, esp with ice is a set back while being beautiful. Some use that for being quiet and to see God in this special creation (as St. Therese saw it as a special "kiss" from God on her clothing day...esp. since she had requested it!) while others can see a reflection of themselves if they feel frustrated by it boxing them in and disturbing their necessary routines. So, yes, Padraig, do be careful, taking care of yourself. Enjoy while knowing that it too will end at some point. Do you happen to remember how Boston was buried a couple years back? We see ourselves and our true dependency upon God and others around us in such times. God bless.
     
  10. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    That is the magic...so much nonsense on things that really don't matter. So much energy on trying to prove this point or that point.

    Mueller understands time to focus energy on spirituality. In his eyes, time to get out of field hospital and enter the spiritual war.

    Sounds like the position many of us have. And if we just become a soapbox for an extreme. MOG basically looses its spirituality.

    Brother al
     
  11. padraig

    padraig New Member

    It is awesome sometimes seeing how the young ones dress. I saw a young guy in shorts the other night. It was said to be about minus 7 c yet he was dressed in shorts. I sometimes see them come back from night clubs in t shirts. :) You would swear it was the South of France in summer time.

    (Minus seven c is about - 44 f)

    I am afraid letting Islam in was a mistake. Christian refugees, yes. Muslims, no. They did it the other way round in Europe. If they had still been Christian and knew their history in Europe they would never have opened the door to the wolves.

    Big mistake.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
    Mary's child likes this.
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I respect Cardinal Muller and in many ways have a similar makeup to my personality. I am not prone to extremes, vitriol, etc. I also do not wish to see a schism. Nor do I advocate separating from the Pope or disrespecting him. In my opinion though it appears the good Cardinal is trying to please everyone and in doing so he pleases no one.

    He is trying to sit upon a fence which is no longer there.
     

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