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Discussion in 'Scriptural Thoughts' started by Sanctus, Oct 5, 2016.

  1. Sanctus

    Sanctus Guest

    I was at Catechism class tonight and was told that the stories of the Old Testament such as Noah and the Flood and Cain and Abel were not to be taken literally as being real events. I disagreed on this and I said that I believe that they are true and I mentioned the visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich. Any thoughts on this? I always believed those stories to be true and that we can't pick and choose. For example if Adam and Eve didn't exist, how else would we have acquired our fallen nature?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2016
  2. MMarie

    MMarie Guest

    I have heard this before from someone who sought college courses on our Catholic faith, that the Genesis accounts are myths, or constructs. I was dismayed. What harm is there in a simple, accepting faith?
     
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  3. The Bible is truth. It is not a collection of fables. Period. The end. We are not being taught the truth and the old ways. I am so thankful you disagreed. I don't know what catechism books they are using, but it is not right.
    Stick to the old tried and true. We have a fallen nature because of Original Sin, the sin of Adam and Eve, and God sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for us so that we who accept the gift, can have eternal life.
     
    MMarie likes this.
  4. This is part of the great apostasy and the gradual falling away, and the coming schism.
     
    Fatima likes this.
  5. Mario

    Mario Powers

    We need to be careful in our assumptions, I think. St. John Paul II, back in the 1980s spoke to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and seemed to make room for the possibility of a theistic evolutionary worldview. In so doing, he discussed what impact this may have on our view of Genesis 1-11. Specifically concerning the creation story, the Pope emphasized that no matter one's viewpoint, Catholics must uphold the following: there is one true Creator God, our original parents were uniquely created by God in His image and likeness, they rebelled and brought about the Fall, bringing the penalty of original sin to us all. However, he did not say all the details of the creation story are fact. On the other hand there are numerous scientific and historical discoveries that seem to support a worldwide flood, for instance,

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!which would confirm that ancient judgment of God.

    In my current studies in the last 6 years I have come upon a number of instances where teachers have considered some of the Old Testament as myth. And I have pushed back when able with facts. It is a situation that needs to be addressed not dismissed.:)

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
     
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  6. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    These same people are the typical ones that reject the true/real/substantial presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
    What about when the NT supports the OT stories, such as comparing Noah being saved from the flood waters through the ark and we are saved from sin through the water's of baptism? If we start doubting the stories like Cain and Abel, where does it stop? I think it is dangerous to assume OT stories are fable, for where does it end?
    1 Peter 3:21 20 "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. 21 And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him".…
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  7. Fatima, I agree totally with you. And with what is in the Bible. St. Jerome must be turning over in his grave.:ROFLMAO:
    We need to pray for those people who are involved in this apostasy.
    Jesus makes reference to Jonah in Matthew, and I am sure there are other references in the NT to the OT accounts.
     
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  8. Virtue

    Virtue New Member

    Please pray for me. I am a new theology professor, currently teaching an intro class, and it is difficult to combat these notions. The students get to college already with these notions from their high school, and it is hard to undo the damage without losing them. Recently I had to defend the fact that a serpent could speak (Genesis 3), or that Balaam's donkey could speak, reminding them that if people can hear God's voice out of nowhere, why couldn't an angel or demon speak through an animal? They can accept God, but they don't want to accept the fact that there are spiritual forces all around us. They are uncomfortable when confronted with the miraculous. Please pray for me to have the courage and wit to defend the reality of these events.
     
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  9. Rain

    Rain Archangels

    You're fighting in the trenches, Virtue. As you know, battling the worldly views that have crept into the church is serious business. When the soldiers donning the Catholicism uniform go against you, it feels like you've lost the high ground. No matter how tough it gets, you know God will eventually take it back. On that day, you'll be happy to be on the winning side.
     
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  10. Rosario

    Rosario New Member

    My theory is if they were only stories why would Our Lord who is truth itself quote these same stories as fact when he walked this earth.
     
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  11. djmoforegon

    djmoforegon Archangels

    We will be praying for you, Virtue. You have a very difficult but rewarding job.

    When yound people are involved, I would recommend invoking the help of St. John Bosco. His whole vocation was bringing troubled youth to a firm faith in the unseeable God.

    Courage and God's blessings!

     
  12. CathyG

    CathyG Principalities

    I encountered this same situation in my son's Catholic high school. There was a presentation open to the school community on faith and Darwinism. The head of the theology department dismissed the old testament as full of myths and the gay, "married", ex-seminarian religious ed teacher was asked to expound. Of course I had my hand raised continuously to counter these beliefs but was very obviously not called on. Must have been the look on my face....
     
  13. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I like the answer given by John Martignoni in Aletia to the question "Do Catholics take the Bible Literally?" http://aleteia.org/2015/09/02/do-catholics-take-the-bible-literally/

    Regarding Noah and the Ark, I'm inclined to agree with Joe Paprocki at busted halo. I'm not familiar with the website and I don't know who Joe Paprocki is so I'm not recommending that anyone follow his every word. His explanation of the Noah story just makes more sense to me http://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/do-catholics-believe-that-noahs-ark-is-a-factual-event
    I'm inclined to believe that the entire planet wasn't flooded in one go and every living creature execept those on the ark were drowned. I think it more likely that the flood could have been confined to the region where Noah lived, but please don't take that as an informed opinion because I'm far from well-informed or knowledegable on biblical matters.

    Joe Paprocki also provides a link to "THE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE IN THE CHURCH" published by The Pontifical Biblical Commission on March 18, 1994 http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/pbcinter.htm I have neither the patience nor the attention span to read through all of it, but a cursory glance suggests that it's worth reading by anyone with more than a passing interest in the topic.
     
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  14. Sanctus

    Sanctus Guest

    Thanks for the links Dolours.
     
  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    When I was young I had the answer to everything. I find , as I get older I am quiet happy to admit I do not have the answer to some questions and am quite happy to put them in a kind of mental brackets lableled, 'it depends' and take it on a one by one case. A lot of people are not happy with this and want things in an either / or black and white answer. All I can say some things don't have easy answers, or rather the simple answer is not to have a simple answer , if you see what I mean.

    When I was a kid of about twenty I was a real smart ass and thought I had the answer to just about everything. I laughed at a room full students for the preisthood who did not believe in Evolution and drove them crazy with my down my nose way of looking at them.:D I was a horror picture.

    Do I believe in Evolution now? Why yes I do, because it seems to me the only theory that fits. How does that square with the Garden of Eden? Well you know I don't honestly know. I think it is better in the bible as a general rule to take things as close to read as I possibly can ; so that is what I do. At one point certainly our father and mother Adam and Eve rebelled against God and we fell into original sin. That somehow before this fall we were in a state of grace and there was indeed a Garden of Eden. That the theory of evolution helps us a good bit in understanding but we need more input to understand and that comes from scripture.

    How you combine the two is often a complete mystery tome . But I am quite at home and happy with mysteries and saying, 'I just don't know'

    If I had an easy answer I would give it. The only easy answer I can give is to distrust people with easy answers to things like this.

    I really deeply love the way the Catholic Church approaches all this for she is wise and eeps all doors open. I do the same and am at peace.

    Another thing I don;t think my answers can be your answers , nor your answers mine.

    The enarest answer I can give is to prayerfully find your answers and be happy if you find yourself like me , up beyond the stars scratching your head at the wonder of it all. :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  16. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    No doubt someday children will ask their parents:

    "Do you really believe that fire fell from the sky and consumed a great part of humanity in a Chastisement?"

    "Do you really believe that there were three days of darkness that covered the whole Earth and that the demons were released from hell to kill people?"

    “If men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the Bishops and the priests."
    -Our Lady's message from Akita

    In this message from the apparitions at Akita Japan Our Lady refers to the "deluge" or flood as a real event. That's good enough for me. No need to rationalize it away. She would know better than any scientist.
     
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  17. Dean

    Dean Archangels

    Bible is truth, but cannot be taken literally. I used to believe it had to be taken literally, and as a priest told me (a good faithful priest who brought me back into the faith) you cannot take everything literal like many evangelicals believe. If so you cannot make it through a couple pages of Genesis. There are 2 accounts of creation. Both conflict with each other in literal terms, but they both tell one story, God is responsible for creation.
     
  18. padraig

    padraig New Member

    It is interesting how often modern science has confirmed accounts in scripture. For instance in scripture it refers to the Syrians sleeping in beds of 'Wood inled with ivory', a practise adopted by the Hebrews but seen as decadent' its only in the past few years archaelogists discovered evidence that these beds did exist at the period.

    Amos 6:4
    …3Do you put off the day of calamity, And would you bring near the seat of violence? 4Those who recline on beds of ivory And sprawl on their couches, And eat lambs from the flock And calves from the midst of the stall, 5Who improvise to the sound of the harp, And like David have composed songs for themselves,

    This was about 750 years before Christ.


    [​IMG]



    http://sleephistory.org/enclosed_bed_designs/ancient_beds

    Amos 6:4 decries the rich who "were at ease in Zion" reclinging on their luxury beds; "that lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches..." and were dull to the impending woes and destruction that was coming and had turned a deaf ear to the poor, and were in fact, oppressing them. Stretched upon their immaculate beds of ivory and carved couched with inlaid jewels, they feasted without fear in the choice flock and herd, and listened to enchanting musical instruments. Here, beds depict the stupor of sleep as a symbol of dullness to reality.
     
  19. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think it is like a dance and people have to find their own truth in this.

    Scripture is a bit like a mother carrying her new born baby. This is the central spiritual message. Everything else is kind of extra like asking what colour and type of blanket the baby is wrapped in.

    So long as you pick up the baby and hold it in your heart that is all that matters really.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. padraig

    padraig New Member

    You know I still don't understand how aeroplanes work. But I am happy to get into them and travel from place to place. A lot of scripture works like that for me too. I don't feel the need to take it apart and put it together again, so long as it does me in prayer I am fine with it all.

    [​IMG]
     

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